The fallacy of how PvP can protect your system from being undermined.

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Come on guys, as a PvE player and probably the most peaceful person in ED I can say: the strongest and most vocal supporters of PvE will pray for PvP if their interests are threatened by someone else in *shadow* mode.

Yeah, I am with you. I do feel for pure PvP players, I play both so I wouldn't want to see ED become totally PvE.

However, if a PvPers minor faction is being undermined its probably by a dedicated group that have been pee'ed off by them for some reason and the fact that PvEers were always told to 'git good or go to solo' on so many other threads means its not surprising that the attack is coming from group or solo.
 
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Yeah, I am with you. I do feel for pure PvP players, I play both so I wouldn't want to see ED become totally PvE.

However, if a PvPers minor faction is being undermined its probably by a dedicated group that have been pee'ed off by them for some reason and the fact that PvEers were always told to 'git good or go to solo' on so many other threads means its not surprising that the attack is coming from group or solo.


And now we come full circle. :D
 
There IS a combat component in wars/civil wars with the "conflict zones", but even then it's not STRICTLY PvP combat. I think you've failed to understand what you're asking for though - the BGS is basically a simulation of the economic and political influences in the civilised bits of the galaxy. It operates by assigning influence values to various missions and to combat bonds under very strictly controlled circumstances to avoid people "gaming" it. It's extremely difficult to quantify influence values for PvP combat however, and even more difficult to do so without "gaming". You'd have to assign a faction to EVERY player, and there'd be very little way to prevent people from abusing/exploiting it.

At the end of the day I think you need to accept that the combat & flight simulations are there to support combat (PvP and otherwise), and that the BGS is there to support politico-economic gaming.


This is one of those issues that I have mixed emotions on, and hate the way the game handles this PVP interaction.

Because PVP kills = PVE kills in CZ's and other combat areas of the game, PVP is disincentivised. Until it takes the same amount of time to kill PC's as NPC's PvE is always the best way to play this. Again, PVP is fun to do...but in this type of play, evenly matched PVP players (and the groups they play for) are penalized. Most large scale, highly contested CZ's become explicitly about sweeping out PVP players from the other side to 'own that particular instance'.

This is, unfortunately, why there can never be a PVP kill > PVE kill bonus. This would create an 'Open is the real game' and everyone else is just a wannabe for playing elsewhere.
 
How - as a moderator - can this be your argument for this kind of discussion.
Is your aim, that every PVP player who actually cares about the game should now stop playing ED?
Cause thats how it sounds for me and many others.

Absoloutely not. And being a moderator has nothing to do with it.

My aim is that people who enjoy PvP accept that the game is 99% PvE, with the possibility of PvP. Best still, if those who enjoy PvP, do it with good reason, rather than "for the lulz", but some people will always be like this.

However, there is a small subset of PvPers who expect, nay demand, that FD change the game to make PvP a lot more prominent, and i think ideally, they would like it so that eventually, there would only be a single mode, and that as many PvE elements became PvP elements instead, with FD putting more focus on PvP rather than PvE.

I hope that those people either understand that as far as FD have let us know, its not the sort of game they are making, and its certainly not the game they sold. If they cannot accept that, then they would probably obtain more enjoyment from playing a game that caters more to PvP, rather than trying to change a game that is not so focused on the PvP.

And i stand by my statement that ED sucks for PvP.... i really should repost my thread on the topic from the Steam forums here. I'm sure it would cause lots of controversy! :D

How do you know, its a lot of code necessary?
Have you already talked with the devs about that in the past minutes?
And even if... this seems to be the by far better compromise (a little bit of work for Frontier) then just hitting one (PVEers) or the other (PVPers) in the face.

Nope, just plenty of experience in the business. Of course, i'm making some assumptions here. As a minimum, they must have a class and/or function that deals with infleunce changes. In order to add mode detection to determine whether it should change, its an extra parameter that needs to be added to the routine. This function/class/whatever is probably called from all over the place, from missions, to bounties, to everything that can affect the BGS. So they would have to change the calls in those places to parse through the mode (possibly, i'm guessing of course, i haven't seen the code). On top of that, you need new UI elements highlight what modes a system can be affected from. Then after that, it needs testing, because it adds another layer of complexity to an already complex system.

And besides, i still don't see it as a good solution. You have multiple factions in every system.... so, the player owned faction cannot be affected, while all the other factions can? Or you'd want it system wide? What happens if another faction, let's say a PvE faction expands into a PvP system? PvEers raise influence of the PvE faction... but by the logic presented, the PvP faction influence cannot be changed?

Its simply not going to work. You'd have to block off factions which can be affected from different modes from expanding into systems where differing mode factions exist.
 
My hope is and always was, that Frontier may sometime realize, that the real long time motivation won't come through some rng PVE missions or stuff, but through player generated stories, battles, diplomatics, tournaments, alliances etc.

That hope is decreasing though...

Letting open playing minor factions in some way try to "defend" their faction would have been at least a small step in this direction.
But even this small step seems to be too big, for Frontier.
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As much as I approve your comment, I have to say: ED don’t care if you play or not. They don’t care about long term motivation. Their only care is to sell the season passes.
 
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As much as I approve your comment, I have to say: ED don’t care if you play or not. They don’t care about long term motivation. Their only care is to sell the season passes.

I think you are doing ED a disservice. Obviously they need to sell passes so the marketing has to be aimed at the widest possible player base but I think there core team have a huge passion for the game and the direction it goes - which will not be in the direction that some want it to go
 
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Come on guys, as a PvE player and probably the most peaceful person in ED I can say: the strongest and most vocal supporters of PvE will pray for PvP if their interests are threatened by someone else in *shadow* mode.
Not really. It's the whole "interests threatened" part that's the issue - just like death is optional in open PvP, it's optional whether your interests are ever really threatened in the PvE game, provided you accept the premise that "your" faction isn't really "your" faction at all (I would suggest that this is the accurate view.) Sure, you can get invested in a faction, either through having one with your name on it inserted into the game or choosing and curating an extant faction, but it's impossible to eradicate a faction from the game, to the best of my knowledge.

Additionally, even though undermining a minor faction is absurdly easy in most cases, taking a station in a group Vs. group contest would actually be rather difficult - it often requires some rather careful manipulation of the BGS to do it even unopposed, and if you're opposing such manipulations I can see, off the top of my head, at least two options always available that would make the contested station changing hands rather unlikely. In the case of the 51th (a PMF who lost their station trying to be greedy) they likely would not have lost their civil war (indeed, it wouldn't have started) if they hadn't decided to mess with the system they had themselves injected into by trying to take control of all the stations in the system.
 
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Part of this is (again) down to poor communication and misdirection/misinterpretation though. The player factions were partly a response to the constant demand for guilds etc. FDev saw it as a way to give players some feeling of belonging without stepping over the line of letting them control territory and changing the flavour of the game. It's hardly surprising that many players who felt like they'd had a "win" in their fight for a guild expected to be able to defend it/play it/use it the way they use guilds/clans/corps in other games. Just as in the early days, if they'd done their digging they'd have realised that it wasn't what they thought, but many players just jumped on board and expected it to live up to their desires, and are now dissatisfied and feel cheated coz it doesnt.

^^^^Truth!

Add my voice to Roybe's here. I cant rep you again just yet Sandmann, but absolutely this. They jumped on board expecting to have a station/guildhall they could defend from all comers with their fierce warriors. Pfft.. fizzle.. not so much. And if they knew how the game worked they should never have expected that.
 
However, there is a small subset of PvPers who expect, nay demand, that FD change the game to make PvP a lot more prominent, and i think ideally, they would like it so that eventually, there would only be a single mode, and that as many PvE elements became PvP elements instead, with FD putting more focus on PvP rather than PvE.

I hope that those people either understand that as far as FD have let us know, its not the sort of game they are making, and its certainly not the game they sold. If they cannot accept that, then they would probably obtain more enjoyment from playing a game that caters more to PvP, rather than trying to change a game that is not so focused on the PvP.

100 % YES

Now we just need an official statement from FD regarding this matter.
 
A lot of people still think that Lugh was 'given' by the devs, not lost by the Feds.

The Federation (as defined by Lugh)- Great shooters, poor shoppers!
My mind has now lost its boggling reflex.

Nice to see you back man - the CSG have been quiet recently. Have you reclaimed the system yet? Did you find your fabled world?
 
I think you are doing ED a disservice. Obviously they need to sell passes so the marketing has to be aimed at the widest possible player base but I think there core team have a huge passion for the game and the direction it goes - which will not be in the direction that some want it to go
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You are probably right. Don’t know which one is more profitable but I just don’t want to play in such empty VR. Damn it, 400 billion star systems with less than 10k players online is a bit lonely. I prefer to play PvE and alone but I want to see a human being from time to time… Moreover, the static VR looks like a dead space and it will never be alive without an option to be changed by large well organized player groups.
 
Players controlling territory is something that has been explicitly ruled out by FD over and over again. That includes controlling it by the threat of "come in here doing that and I'll shoot you" What you're wanting simply isn't going to happen. Ever. Not in this game.

If this is really true, then introducing player-factions was a big fault from FD. If there is something that has the name of your group it's natural that you want to protect and control it.
 
If this is really true, then introducing player-factions was a big fault from FD. If there is something that has the name of your group it's natural that you want to protect and control it.
The developers made very clear, at least from what I saw, the distinction between "Player groups" and "Player Factions."

Player groups comprise the players themselves, and our technically outside the scope of the game. It is extra-curricular in that regard.

Player factions are name-sake factions that player groups can petition to be added to the game. The factions are comprised of the NPC ships bearing that factions name and the stations under that factions control, not the players themselves.

Players and player groups can support player factions in game, but are not directly related via any in game mechanics, only by name.


That is indeed the natural tendency, however the mechanic was implemented so that a player group could not exclude a lone player/other group of players from working for (or against) their faction in game if they so choose.
 
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I'd like to take this moment to thank everyone for their contributions to the thread. There were some really interesting debates here.

However, also been lots of going round in circles as well, and i think most points have been covered, so avoid this dragging on and on, and turning into another Open vs Group vs Solo debate, i'll go ahead and lock it now.

I might have a follow up therad, i'd like to give it more thought though, perhaps sleep on it, relating to whether its possible for the dog to have its day (ie: PvPers get some way to work the BGS) without fundamentally changing the game. Or if someone else has a good idea, feel free to start something yourself, just make sure you really think it though from all angles as much as possible, because you can be sure, someone will rip it apart if you don't, and probably even if you do :D

So, locking.

And for those that worry about moderator abusing powers. Keep in mind, any non-moderator can always request to have their own threads closed by hitting the report a post button and requesting the thread be closed. Or i could ask on our moderator channel for someone else to do it.

I'm just taking a shortcut ;)

Once again, thanks everyone for the input, and hope i've explained why PvP is not the solution to defending a system from BGS changes.
 
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