I gave you some rep for a fun comment but I am compelled to say that those people actually started off in solo / group - they didn't just go there for the duration of the exercise.
The fallacy of how PvP can protect your system from being undermined.
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I gave you some rep for a fun comment but I am compelled to say that those people actually started off in solo / group - they didn't just go there for the duration of the exercise.
I'm afraid you've missed the point. Using your example where your team uses solely PvP and the other team solely PvE you'd have so make your actions too expensive to EVERY member of the opposing force that they'd give up WITHOUT them actually getting any missions through, and WITHOUT it also becoming too expensive for YOUR team. Remember it was stated in the original post that the BGS is a numbers game, so in this example we assume that both groups will have similar numbers and put in similar effort, and that the only difference is that one group ONLY does PvE and the other ONLY does PvP. In this case the PvP group is destined to lose a BGS fight, because they're simply not doing anything to directly, positively impact the BGS while the other group are.
The BGS is manipulated through PvE actions, PvP actions have no direct impact on it so if the other team is manipulating the BGS and you're not, the best you can hope for it to slow them down but eventually they'll win if they keep at it and you keep refusing to engage in PvE. The only exception to this is in war zones, and even then you'd have to prevent the opposing force from getting ANY npc kills and getting back to a station to claim them which (even if everyone was in open) is impossible... due to instancing... and due to your group simply not being able to police every war zone 24 hours a day just in case an opposing player turned up.
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OP, nice write up..and you are 100% correct.
PVP is a distraction in this game, which some people are driven to. In CG's, BGS, and PP, PvP has little to no affect on the outcome of those that play it...mainly because all modes must be equal (until the devs decide otherwise). This should be obvious to anyone that has done any of the above activities.
To be sure, PVP is fun, but we had the Triadius group camping in Lugh, and their affect on anything we did was very minimal. We stayed out of their way (played in private and solo) and they did their thing. I am not against PvP...just the misunderstanding that PvP players have with this game. PvP as a 'supported playstyle' sucks and nothing they will say to the devs will move the needle in their direction. Because the game is designed completely around PvE trophy collection.
PVP is a distraction in this game, which some people are driven to. In CG's, BGS, and PP, PvP has little to no affect on the outcome of those that play it...mainly because all modes must be equal (until the devs decide otherwise). This should be obvious to anyone that has done any of the above activities.
To be sure, PVP is fun, but we had the Triadius group camping in Lugh, and their affect on anything we did was very minimal. We stayed out of their way (played in private and solo) and they did their thing. I am not against PvP...just the misunderstanding that PvP players have with this game. PvP as a 'supported playstyle' sucks and nothing they will say to the devs will move the needle in their direction. Because the game is designed completely around PvE trophy collection.
big load of crap. Even #1 is a load of crap all by itself. If you can't see something you can't do anything about it ever. If everyone had to be in open, then people could set up patrols and guard the system. Every time you jump into a system you end up at the nav point, you will constantly by interdicted, and killed more than once, which means you will lose ships and money and might give it up.
It might not stop it, but it would make it a helluva lot harder for you to masuerade unharmed free as you like, without repercussions.
It might not stop it, but it would make it a helluva lot harder for you to masuerade unharmed free as you like, without repercussions.
Urm, that wont work for a multitude of reasons - as already explained many times.
In Elite - if a group wants to out-BGS another group - their only option is to out PvE those other groups, as that is the only thing that has an appreciable effect on the BGS.
The players crying about PvP know these things already mentioned in the OP. It's just an excuse they use because they want to attack people in Open and the players who won't go into Open frustrate them, so they use things like power play and system influence as specious arguments to try to get their way.
It's kind of obvious.
It's kind of obvious.
+rep because you're 100% correct. When you are in conflict with other players you gain bragging rights in your group by blowing them up. You WIN with PvE vs mostly NPCs. And th eOP is equally correct that having had everyone in open only from the start wouldn't have changed that at all.
At best that's a delaying action. You might slow down an attack on your bit of the BGS but it's impossible to actually WIN it without engaging in PvE yourself, because the BGS -is- PvE. As long as one side is doing PvE and the other isn't, any amount of PvP will only make it take longer for the PvE group to win, you CAN'T make them lose by only engaging in PvP.
[edit] I'll draw you an analogy. Caveat: like all analogies, this one's not perfect. Please take it only as the illustration it's intended as.
There's a game of poker (BGS) planned. It's planned to happen in a room that has an infinite number of doors (instances). There's a group of a finite size that likes to play poker (PvEers), they intend to go in through the doors and play it. Your group (PvPers, also of a similar and finite size) doesn't like to play poker, you like playing tag and you especially DON'T want the other group to win at their poker game. Your plan is to stand outside the doors and try to prevent the other group entering by forcing them to play tag outside. Your hope is that the other group will become discouraged and leave. Sure, some might... but some players will NEVER encounter your group because they came in through a door you weren't watching, or because they were good runners and got around you, or coz you had to sleep at some point. Whatever the reason, at SOME point there'll be enough people inside the room that there WILL be a game of poker, someone WILL win it, and it WON'T be you coz you refused to play. The ABSOLUTE BEST you can manage with this tactic is to make it take longer for the poker game to be won, and the ONLY certainty is that YOUR GROUP WON'T WIN THE POKER GAME UNLESS YOU PLAY POKER.
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Actually PvP doesn't suck at all - I've had some really memorable scraps with other players, they were fun and they were exactly what I was up for in those play sessions.
It just isn't a viable strategy for success in any conflict involving the BGS. That's ok, it can be fun without being that. What's causing all the salt is that folks who are good at PvP are used to excellence in that regard being the highest honor in the games they play. ED has, in many ways, done what the original did - it doesn't fit into any of the usual boxes for today's games. With a little mental readjustment it's quite possible to play effectively in this game - and I know some hardcore PvP players are going to look at "effective" ED play styles and say that's not the game they want to play. But, unfortunately for them, that's ok too.
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At least now it is official and undeniable that any roleplay or other reason people come up with in order to justify attacking other CMDRs is utter nonsense.
PvP is completely sense- and meaningless. People only do it for the lulz. Lulz on the expense of other real humans.
PvP is completely sense- and meaningless. People only do it for the lulz. Lulz on the expense of other real humans.
Kind of well offtopic, but i wrote a lengthy post a week or two back (think it might have been on the Steam forums though) as to exactly why PvP in ED sucks. Not that its bad - not quite the same thing - lots of fun to be had with PvP in ED. Its just that a lot of the PvP sucks because of multiple reasons, mainly due to loss, imbalance, and other reasons, that do not occur in a good PvP game.
IF they ever implement it (remember Sandro was "stirring the pot" with that, not saying it was where they had decided to go) and IF it actually has the effect that he's thinking it would (which I doubt) then maybe they might consider expanding it to other BGS actions.. somewhere around season 8 unless newer and better shinies drop it down the priority list as the game develops. Don;t hold your breath waiting, Blue isn't your color, even with an A-rated remlock.
... yep, which as people keep pointing out ED -isn't-. This was never a PvP-centric game, it's a PvE game that permits PvP as well. At it's heart though it's STILL "Elite 1984" though, a game in which you battle against the game, NOT against other players. The multiplayer aspect of ED is really more of a comparative thing than a competitive thing.
Basically, as PvP games go ED makes a really good PvE game.
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If you're undocking for some PvP action, either you're flying an appropriate build for what you want to do or you're going to be seeing the inside of that same docking bay a LOT. That's not balancing by FD it's balancing by practicality. But if you actually want fights against challenging cmdrs, the kind of engagement where you can at least mentally salute each other when its over, that's fine and it works without suckage.
That's IF it ever comes in for powerplay.... and IF Sandro changes his mind coz he said it was ONLY happening for powerplay... and if they changed their mind that all modes were equal and that the open bonus would only be for the powers and not the players.
I think it's a HUGE stretch to expect that any time soon.
I regularly wing up to play escort for miners who want the hazres bonus without the danger. Combat for me, no combat for them, everybody wins.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that even with an A-class remlock. Blue just isn't my color.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that even with an A-class remlock. Blue just isn't my color.
Repped, not only for the colour blue, but also for your sig.
I meet up with Commanders in open in SC all the time. Usually we end up winging up and then doing whatever it is we're going to do. I met some Commanders a few days ago in SC. We went down to a planet and drove around for hours, just talking and jumping over each other in SRVs. That sort of thing happens far more frequently than death and robbery. With more people in open, and not hiding away in some dark corner, there would be even more opportunity for interactions. Also, winging up with like minded commanders usually has the benefit of discouraging attack.
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