The fundamental problem with making Powerplay Open-Only.

[Rubbernuke]

So your argument for why oopp should happen is, because you believe you deserve the right to shoot members of the opposing power?

Again, why is this strange? Why is it strange for an opposition army to want to attack supply lines? Why do you think its strange that by carrying something that helps your power I might want to stop you, if it helps my power to reach its goal?

That has nothing to do with making powerplay better as a whole, that's just expanding the aspects you, personally, enjoy.

In your opinion.

So what? You can't just dismiss aspects you don't like by calling them 'grinding'. People enjoy those aspects, and no matter how much you dismiss it as 'grind', uncapping UMing fixes the only real problem you've actually presented, with no relation to oopp at all.

Just look on the forum for your answer, people want content and not grind. Doing the same thing with the same results is not the same as actually using your skills and ships to the fullest.

Face the facts, none of the problems you've highlighted would be solved by oopp.

Unlike how I've explained in detail the problems of powerplay, and offered solutions and the impacts of those solutions, every question I ask you, you strangely never answer? All you say is 'it wont work, because'.

You(and others like you) would enjoy it more, but that's not relevant.

Why is it not relevant?

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

So your argument for why oopp should happen is, because you believe you deserve the right to shoot members of the opposing power?

Actually Yes. That is the whole point. Powerplay is supposed to be a "secret" war that's supposed to carry on behind the scenes (Although the results being broadcast is weird). An opposing power ship is the enemy as far as you are concerned. In interests of Balance, fdev made NPC powerplay ships will only attack if your are on powerplay buniess (ie. carrying powerplay cargo or you have kills to cash in), players don't have access to that data unfortunatly and can attack you just for belonging to a different power.

Unfortunately, most people I've met just powerplay to get certain modules and leave the power, which was not the intended end result of powerplay.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Well, the first thing i would do would be to remove the expansion mechanic, a good thing, yes?

 

[K7Hyperion]

Face the facts, none of the problems you've highlighted would be solved by oopp. You(and others like you) would enjoy it more, but that's not relevant.

Such hubris, to label the enjoyment of the majority over the niche (yourself) as “irrelevant”.

The pillar of your argument is “I want to take part in a war, but I deserve not to be targeted by other players because I don’t ever want that to happen no matter however I choose to play the game”

You realize how childish and selfish this is right? And surely you can overcome the delusion to understand that your view represents a small fraction of the player base?

Edit: forgot to add a dramatic “face the facts” clause up above. Slot it in wherever feels right

 

[Sylveria]

Such hubris, to label the enjoyment of the majority over the niche (yourself) as “irrelevant”.

Oh, the irony when I read such statements. A recent election comes to mind.

Best not to make such comparisons at all, IMO.

 

[K7Hyperion]

And that is relevant because? Your issue is that you don't like people shooting at you, in a game where thats not wrong, in a feature which is about being competitive but is stagnant because one of the most important tasks you have to do to survive has a failure rate of 0%.

Irrefutable.

 

[K7Hyperion]

Oh, the irony when I read such statements. A recent election comes to mind.

Best not to make such comparisons at all, IMO.

Please, enlighten me.

 

[gorankar]

Such hubris, to label the enjoyment of the majority over the niche (yourself) as “irrelevant”.

You don't know you are the majority. Which really makes your "Such hubris" insult a bit rofl.

I am actually fine with OOPP if they divorce modules from it. I suspect OOPP without module rewards would be the end of participation in PP for a great many, but that is just as much a guess as yours that you are in the majority. This forum is not really all that representative of the actual player base. And even here there is not much consensus regarding open only PP or open only anything for that matter.

My internet connection is so crappy, I have a hard enough time playing solo or PG with a couple friends. I would leave it behind altogether if they went oopp and divorced modules from it. And only occasionally pledging Aisling for some prizmatics from time to time if they did not divorce modules. You still would not get to shoot at me. I would pick the most out of the way place, based on traffic reports, to farm merits, and block any hollow squares I came across in that system. I would just lag out the minute a gank wing entered my instance anyway.

 

[Bashy81]

I read a few pages and skipped the rest. I take it it's business-as-usual ? : Powerplayers with years' practical experience of the mechanics and the playerbase, arguing in favour of OOPP, versus people with er, forum experience, and the odd newbie, speculating against ?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Well, the first thing i would do would be to remove the expansion mechanic, a good thing, yes?

If you did, it would change the character of Powerplay drastically, since one of its 'pillars' is territorial acquisition which is a primary game loop. But then, one pillar (collapse) was never put in, so anything is possible I suppose

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

I read a few pages and skipped the rest. I take it it's business-as-usual ? : Powerplayers with years' practical experience of the mechanics and the playerbase, arguing in favour of OOPP, versus people with er, forum experience, and the odd newbie, speculating against ?

People who didn't read the product description before pledging.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

You don't know you are the majority. Which really makes your "Such hubris" insult a bit rofl.

I am actually fine with OOPP if they divorce modules from it. I suspect OOPP without module rewards would be the end of participation in PP for a great many, but that is just as much a guess as yours that you are in the majority. This forum is not really all that representative of the actual player base. And even here there is not much consensus regarding open only PP or open only anything for that matter.

My internet connection is so crappy, I have a hard enough time playing solo or PG with a couple friends. I would leave it behind altogether if they went oopp and divorced modules from it. And only occasionally pledging Aisling for some prizmatics from time to time if they did not divorce modules. You still would not get to shoot at me. I would pick the most out of the way place, based on traffic reports, to farm merits, and block any hollow squares I came across in that system. I would just lag out the minute a gank wing entered my instance anyway.

Perhaps it was a practical demonstration of hubris, hehe. Now you know how it feels. I'd say many of those affected by OOPP are mode-switchers - they like flying in open but don't like opposition. They'd have a choice.

Sounds as though you are arguing for an open bonus to give players with bad connection or unwilling to pay a console subscription a chance to take part. Or for tougher, more pro-active PP NPCs?*


*And maybe a bonus for not having all PP opponents in-system blocked, hehe.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

What we have in this thread is a long queue of people lining up to explain in detail what is so good about PP in open, and being told "that's what you enjoy, but I might not". What I haven't once heard in all threads like this, is an explanation of what's so good about the progress bar-chasing rinse repeat grind race of hauling in solo. Telling me the latter is my opinion isn't enough. What is the draw?

 

[gorankar]

A long queue of people lining up to explain what they "feel" would be so good about oopp. Those things boiling down to being more people to pew pew, and communicate with/at. Which not everyone agrees is good. The people not interested in combat outfit meta combat ship player against trade vessel player pew pew naturally have no desire to play in open while they may have an interest in PP, and do not wish to see their efforts tossed. Same for the people that just don't really want anything to do with others, or have crap internet.

There is little good about PP at the moment. It has nothing at all to do with the different modes. It's just plain boring. Getting repeatedly murdered in a trade ship by players in meta combat ships while I lag out is not going to make it better for me. OOPP only makes it "better" for the PKers, and only for a short while until the ones getting PKed move on to other activities or games.

Open only anything sucks for the people that want to, or have to, play in the other modes.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

A long queue of people lining up to explain what they "feel" would be so good about oopp. Those things boiling down to being more people to pew pew, and communicate with/at. Which not everyone agrees is good. The people not interested in combat outfit meta combat ship player against trade vessel player pew pew naturally have no desire to play in open while they may have an interest in PP, and do not wish to see their efforts tossed. Same for the people that just don't really want anything to do with others, or have crap internet.

There is little good about PP at the moment. It has nothing at all to do with the different modes. It's just plain boring. Getting repeatedly murdered in a trade ship by players in meta combat ships while I lag out is not going to make it better for me. OOPP only makes it "better" for the PKers, and only for a short while until the ones getting PKed move on to other activities or games.

Open only anything sucks for the people that want to, or have to, play in the other modes.

So more of what someone might not like about OOPP, and no answer to my actual question. The opposite in fact, in that OO or not, PP is pap in your view. And some of us are not talking about OOPP, we're talking about PP in open that we already do. OO just aims to solve some problems and frustrations and level the playing field between modes.

FWIW by the way, noone will have any great interest in shooting you (sorry!), since it sounds as though you are what's politely called a grinder, i.e. a limited amount of merits, for modules. All powers have to "manage" grinders - i.e. try to send them where they'll do least damage to the power they're supporting. If it was for our power, we'd be interested in asking you why you are prepping/forting this bad system (if it was bad), and tell you where you can actually help or not make a difference. If you were in open, we'd have a better chance of doing that. I'd say blocking everyone you see is probably a waste of your time, and even if it wasn't (say you were accidentally in a contested expansion), you'd have an easier time grinding in a quiet system the appropriate PP group suggested. This leaves aside the usual accompanying suggestion that solo merits should count for modules, but not PP progress, which would seem to suit you to the ground.

 

[Rubbernuke]

A long queue of people lining up to explain what they "feel" would be so good about oopp. Those things boiling down to being more people to pew pew, and communicate with/at. Which not everyone agrees is good. The people not interested in combat outfit meta combat ship player against trade vessel player pew pew naturally have no desire to play in open while they may have an interest in PP, and do not wish to see their efforts tossed. Same for the people that just don't really want anything to do with others, or have crap internet.

The problem being people have gotten used to innefectual NPC opposition in Powerplay thinking thats actually normal.

There is little good about PP at the moment. It has nothing at all to do with the different modes. It's just plain boring.

Its boring because nothing happens in routine flights without other players. No NPC goes after or even surprises you- it all runs the same with each A to B haul identical, nor does it require any special skills or tactics.

Getting repeatedly murdered in a trade ship by players in meta combat ships while I lag out is not going to make it better for me. OOPP only makes it "better" for the PKers, and only for a short while until the ones getting PKed move on to other activities or games.

How do you know this outcome? Have you tried it?

 

[DemiserofD]

Sorry for the delays on replies, it was opening night for a play I'm in, I'll reply as soon as I'm not exhausted anymore!

But short quick answer, you need to prove a solution will work first! Claiming I need to disprove your argument is one of the classical fallacies called shifting the burden of proof! Totally not cool guys!

 

[gorankar]

How do you know this outcome? Have you tried it?

Yes, it's why I module shop or occasionally support the Blue haired princess from solo/pg.
You want the game changed to cater to you. I understand that completely.
I don't want the game changed to cater to you at my expense. I would hope you could understand that.

Giving control of PP to PKers, and basically telling solo/pg players to pound sand or play in open, in the likely vain hope, that they will have someone to shoot at, just does not appeal to some of us.
OO it and instead of trying to expand/fortify good systems, while module shopping, I pick the ones with the least traffic regardless of whether it hurts the power or not and just avoid the nonsense.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Or in other words: The level of abstraction is simply too high. If it doesn't work in Solo it won't work at all. The PP modules are already an artificial crutch with the purpose to create the illusion of common interest.

And this is where I think you are spot on and simultaneously wrong

In Open the level of abstraction is low, because players do it all, and are not bound by basic NPC rules in what they do. In this respect its the interaction of players crossing paths that makes it work- in this case objective based PvP. Unlike the BGS you can map actions from start to finish, and see it as it happens- its as anti-abstract as it gets.

In solo and PG the abstraction is high, because the 'enemy' solely becomes the progress bar and vanishingly rare NPCs.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yes, it's why I module shop or occasionally support the Blue haired princess from solo/pg.
You want the game changed to cater to you. I understand that completely.
I don't want the game changed to cater to you at my expense. I would hope you could understand that.

Giving control of PP to PKers, and basically telling solo/pg players to pound sand or play in open, in the likely vain hope, that they will have someone to shoot at, just does not appeal to some of us.
OO it and instead of trying to expand/fortify good systems, while module shopping, I pick the ones with the least traffic regardless of whether it hurts the power or not and just avoid the nonsense.

No, I was talking about how you know its player killer central? Or why you think that a vital task is 'providing targets' when its what keeps a power alive and is the activity that would be most prized?

You must see the link between easy fortification, difficulty in attack leading to a full bubble, leading Powerplay 'heat death', don't you?

Lastly, you'd be happy because the modules would be outside of Powerplay.