The fundamental problem with making Powerplay Open-Only.

[Rubbernuke]

There is another issue that was introduced by Fleet Carriers. As long as there are free FC slots near the station you are delivering to, you can haul your merits in near 100% safety.

I can see the need for opposing people to park as many FCs as they can near target stations to ensure PP haulers actually have to travel through systems.

This is true but it can also be a vulnerability since if you know which carrier belongs to who (and scout, like good powers do as well) you then have juicy targets lifting off that can be LR phased / Gromed / spanked.

It also takes a lot of time logistically which kind of balances out- but you'd have to talk to a group like Winters haulers to know what effects it has.

To round out this answer I'll add an idea I had from an earlier post:

Fortification and preparation: this uses the hidden trader POI mechanic. You must scan the nav point (so you drop into a potentially dangerous spot) to find your contact to transfer your cargo (which you do by proximity). Each location is different, so it means more variation against bots, allows for more danger (you don't have the protection of a stations guns or no fire zone for NPCs / players). This also gets around pad blocking since...there are no pads. This fits the 'shadow war' premise of Powerplay in that you are fighting a clandestine war. Your contact will be defended by your own power, but any rival PP NPC can drop in to attack.

If you did this, and made NPCs more predatory (i.e. kill on sight as they mill about NAVs) you'd nix FCs, made it more dangerous in solo / PG, prevent pad blocking in Open and stop bots.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If i was interested in PP hauling i'd fly a Clipper. One of the fastest ships in the game with good SC manouverability. Even if i lost the interdiction i'd probably be out of range of weapon fire before the attacker could deploy hardpoints.

But i'm not interested in PP hauling, its just boring. And no, making it open only wouldn't fix that. It would just make it boring and annoying when interdicted.

By flying something other than a Cutter its already made an impact though- regardless of mode its the opposition that needs to provide a chance of destruction so that fortification is not inevitable. If NPCs did that then you'd lessen the need for Open.

 

[Danieros]

Based on the current ruleset fortification will always win over undermining, even if PP was open only.
You can't stop all cargo vessel to reach a station - that would require you to blockade it 24/7 - not feasible.
As soon as you are detected to seriously undermine a system, the enemy knows which system to focus on fortifying. And for them it doesn't really matter to lose some shipments, as long as some get through they will reach their goal of at least cancelling out undermining.
You also can't just park your murder hobo wagon there all the time, because you run the risk to die and lose all your undermining effort.
Not to mention dropping carriers at different stations of a targeted system to minimize the supercruise travel time...

Don't know whether they are just psychic or there are other ways to figure out that a system is undermined, even while doing so in solo and before handing it in. Tried a couple of different "out-of-focus" Fat Eddy systems the last weeks, and they always fortified them while I was still in the middle of undermining in solo...

There's a "power update" local news article you can check in control systems - it displays how many stolen cargo goods and merits are being held by enemy players for that system. I think there's a range in which it is bugged and that never got fixed so while it's within that range it'll show a broken value, but other than that it should be pretty accurate.

Unfortunately, such a thing does not exist for expansions.

 

[Rubbernuke]

There's a "power update" local news article you can check in control systems - it displays how many stolen cargo goods and merits are being held by enemy players for that system. I think there's a range in which it is bugged and that never got fixed so while it's within that range it'll show a broken value, but other than that it should be pretty accurate.

Unfortunately, such a thing does not exist for expansions.

Bear in mind these need to be scouted and reported. Because of this a lot of attacks are condensed late into the cycle, making it even harder to attack and easier to defend.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

Why? Because no matter what you do, a pvp-optimized build will ALWAYS beat a cargo-hauling build. The current state of combat balance ensures that even attempting pvp in such a case simply doesn't work, because the other player will have a massive advantage from using cargo space for combat modules.

Just this statement mean you are solo/pg player who just have no idea what he is talking about.
No, you are not attempting pvp in hauling cutter or t-9, even if you are great pilot you lose in those vs medium combat ship, point of open pp is dynamic battlefield and coordnation of haulers and combat ship towards common goal, you need combat pilots and hauler pilots, in solo all you need is shieldless t-9, what gameplay is more interesting?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

By flying something other than a Cutter its already made an impact though- regardless of mode its the opposition that needs to provide a chance of destruction so that fortification is not inevitable. If NPCs did that then you'd lessen the need for Open.

Well, a Cutter isn't an option for me, since i don't have the rank

But from what i understand, fortification would still be inevitable. Powers want to deal with that first in general don't they? So it is expansion, prepping, and undermining that would suffer.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Well, a Cutter isn't an option for me, since i don't have the rank

But from what i understand, fortification would still be inevitable.

Currently yes- but with the uncapped UM change it would only stop when outside the 100% threshold either way.

So, in such a situation you'd have a choice of balancing suitability with capacity- you'd be faster and more agile but at the cost of having to do more trips. Bear in mind to the same set of changes would unify fortification direction, so capitals would be hot too- both changes making defence much harder and ultimately leading to a more unstable power.

 

[fus roh potato]

So what is the solution? It might seem obvious, but make the game fun to play.

The most fundamental problem with Open right now is that the default two encounters you'll have with other players are A: Ignoring them, or B: Being killed by them. This is because these are the things the game does best at facilitating! It makes these two things EASY, while making most other shared activities frustratingly difficult by default!

Open only powerplay would be the optimal end-game, but to ensure it's fun and worth it, you'd have to flip this game on its head. There are serious issues lying in the path towards fun and engaging competition, far more than most can recognize, and they exist in the game's connectivity, flight model, sensor range, environment, engineering balance, mass lock, and wing system. We haven't even gotten to a point yet where we agree that the supercruise interdiction and signal source game is detracting from any meaningful development of low-space environments and scenarios. Heck, you have to look for engine trails to find a fight that drifted more than 7k away because for some reason it's too taxing to draw models or have a reasonable sensor/scouting system.

No matter what direction we look, there are boundless excuses to not change anything, because behind every feature in this game is an early departure of commitment from dev and design.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Open only powerplay would be the optimal end-game, but to ensure it's fun and worth it, you'd have to flip this game on its head. There are serious issues lying in the path towards fun and engaging competition, far more than most can recognize, and they exist in the game's connectivity, flight model, sensor range, environment, engineering balance, mass lock, and wing system. We haven't even gotten to a point yet where we agree that the supercruise interdiction and signal source game is detracting from any meaningful development of low-space environments and scenarios. Heck, you have to look for engine trails to find a fight that drifted more than 7k away because for some reason it's too taxing to draw models or have a reasonable sensor/scouting system.

No matter what direction we look, there are boundless excuses to not change anything, because behind every feature in this game is an early departure of commitment from dev and design.

This is the core of Powerplays issues:

BGS: the whole game can be used to further a faction- this includes Powerplay to a certain extent. So AX, mining, hauling, trading, BH, pirating, CGs, missions all can be done in any way you like.

Powerplay: you haul preparation materials, haul fortification, or shoot rivals, over and over. The only time this becomes 'alive' is when its done against other people. Powerplays features such as pledges and explicit territory make identification and intention easy- a Patreus pledge in a Winters expansion is easy to read and know what both sides are doing (unlike the BGS which is largely anonymous).

This is what I mean about NPCs being the limiting factor on Powerplay, and that for Powerplay to really 'work' in all modes NPCs need to be like players, or players become NPCs. An average PP NPC is pathetic canon fodder- station drop zones are far too small, and too much of Powerplay is safe leading to uncontested actions from either NPCs or players.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Currently yes- but with the uncapped UM change it would only stop when outside the 100% threshold either way.

So, in such a situation you'd have a choice of balancing suitability with capacity- you'd be faster and more agile but at the cost of having to do more trips. Bear in mind to the same set of changes would unify fortification direction, so capitals would be hot too- both changes making defence much harder and ultimately leading to a more unstable power.

Ah, so you are referring to other changes that may or may not happen. So its dependent on those?

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Just this statement mean you are solo/pg player who just have no idea what he is talking about.
No, you are not attempting pvp in hauling cutter or t-9, even if you are great pilot you lose in those vs medium combat ship, point of open pp is dynamic battlefield and coordnation of haulers and combat ship towards common goal, you need combat pilots and hauler pilots, in solo all you need is shieldless t-9, what gameplay is more interesting?

And this week's hauler is next week's (or next day's, next hour's) combat pilot, and vice versa.

The OP's painting of open PP as a line-up of gentle traders for slaughter by psychopaths is a complete misrepresentation.

Think of those convoy defences/ attacks in the old x-wing games. It's like that, except in a massive sandbox where the "missions" and clinch points are emergent from the environment, PP mechanics and player actions. And being the convoy of hauling ships offers plenty of gameplay when players are involved in defence and attack of you. Victory as the hauler is delivering your cargo, not defeating the attacker in combat, and skill, tactics and ship/loadout make all the difference.

 

[Northpin]

Oh, can i bang my own drum here?

SInce PP is producing its effects by PVE activities it makes no sense whatsoever to confine it in Open Only.
The only way that would make sense as an OpenOnly activity, would be that PP is producing effects only by direct PVP encounters.
This way you wont have haulers vs murder boats.
And ED would get an ingame PVP activity that is actually related and rewarded as such.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Ah, so you are referring to other changes that may or may not happen. So its dependent on those?

Yes- for Open to really work to its full potential they have to be included, otherwise its a futile gesture. For Open to really be 'it' a number of other low level things need to also change- uncapped UM and fort direction being the main two.

 

[Rubbernuke]

And this week's hauler is next week's (or next day's, next hour's) combat pilot, and vice versa.

The OP's painting of open PP as a line-up of gentle traders for slaughter by psychopaths is a complete misrepresentation.

Think of those convoy defences/ attacks in the old x-wing games. It's like that, except in a massive sandbox where the "missions" and clinch points are emergent from the environment, PP mechanics and player actions. And being the convoy of hauling ships offers plenty of gameplay when players are involved in defence and attack of you. Victory as the hauler is delivering your cargo, not defeating the attacker in combat, and skill, tactics and ship/loadout make all the difference.

Powerplay is a lot like the old(?) playground game British Bulldogs, where you have to run from one side of the playground to the other and not get caught- except in this case if too many get caught a power falls over. Like I always say, if NPCs were effective (i.e. more like players) then it would balance solo; but currently thats not the case, hence why players 'become' NPCs.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

I m on larger FUC federal discord and directly involved in Winters operations for over 2y, our rules forbid doing power play related activities in other mode than open, this include even BGS of current exploited or controlled systems or long term expansion targets, so i bring some facts that propably ruin some of solo/pg slaves lives.
1. A lot of recruits joining us are new players, who often dont have much money or acces to engineering, yet current state of the game allow them to have fun and be important and grow as players individually, both in assets and skill, but when we have hot cycle with a lot of enemy palyers activity those players usually avoid hot spots, but even occasional rebuy in those hot spots is information for others that action is required, and amazingly those players keep plying after rebuys, they still have fun.
2. Nobody in Power play is supposed to be God, if you are hauler forcing blockade, you are calling combat ships for help, if you are in combat ship and enemies outnumber you, you call support, if you are in wing of combat ships and face 2 wings, you call support, i think it's balanced, but if it's problem for some, maybe PVE PP server is best salution.
3. In solo or PG there is no point of using other ships but t-9 for hauling and gimbal conda/vette for undermining, game is just shellow, IMO better salution is prmoting open to promote making NPC's as strong as player in power play for balance.
4. It's extremaly easy to avoid rebuy in even mildly engineered ship, but of course it requires some build sacrafices sometimes, all weapons that can facilitate kills have cooldowns that allow escape after first attempt, even pulse disruptor fired on FSD cant stop fast boot FSD from charging, not mentioning grom missiles. This mean that still critical is territory denial and organization, not "ganking", killing player is just a bonus, often not even worth it, as you can track enemy activity with bounty boards and 2mln cap is really low.
5. Carriers facilitate power play operations, you can have all needed ships for diffrent task in one place that is usually some hot spot, expansion or preperation target, sometimes HQ

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Yes- for Open to really work to its full potential they have to be included, otherwise its a futile gesture. For Open to really be 'it' a number of other low level things need to also change- uncapped UM and fort direction being the main two.

In that case, i'd like to add a rider to the proposal. That people not in wings can have NPC wingmen!

Oh, and better AI that makes them a challenge for other players!

 

[Rubbernuke]

In that case, i'd like to add a rider to the proposal. That people not in wings can have NPC wingmen!

Oh, and better AI that makes them a challenge for other players!

The problem with NPCs in Powerplay is that they have no place to attack the backbone of a power, its fortification attempts.

You depart in total safety (NPCs respect no fire zones)

SC interdiction is easy to shrug off and innefectual

You drop into the stations protection (NPCs just forget you exist)

No hauler drops to a nav, so no danger there.

In short players spend too much time in SC and not enough actually running dropped down for NPCs to matter.

 

[Arindor]

Fair points all round methinks but no player, whatever mode they are in, should be denied gameplay content.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The problem with NPCs in Powerplay is that they have no place to attack the backbone of a power, its fortification attempts.

You depart in total safety (NPCs respect no fire zones)

SC interdiction is easy to shrug off and innefectual

You drop into the stations protection (NPCs just forget you exist)

No hauler drops to a nav, so no danger there.

In short players spend too much time in SC and not enough actually running dropped down for NPCs to matter.

So, perhaps all this messing around with modes and stuff could instead be replaced with FD improving the AI!

 

[Rubbernuke]

So, perhaps all this messing around with modes and stuff could instead be replaced with FD improving the AI!

Not exactly. What we need in this case is G5 Elite shock troops and wholesale change to drop distances and how haulers move. The idea in post #21 would help solve it, because it makes a hauler have to scan a beacon in hostile space, then travel in SC which is hostile and then drop down to drop cargo in hostile space- enemies can follow you, kill your contact, kill you etc. It works in a wing because you can have protection, in fact it works on a whole set of levels.