The griefers are coming, the griefers are coming, the griefers are starting to grow.

[Kristov]

Loads. Ever been to Leesti? These guys hang around places other than Hutton. They dealt with it by adding the speeding condition, but obviously it needs more work. It is not an impossible fix, but given FD's previous way of dealing with it, I would not expect bans to be handed out. They usually engineer a better solution. Also, you cannot assume that because I am not in favor of external punishment for player killing by ramming, means I engage in the tactic myself. It is also possible that I would like to see REAL solutions, not draconian ones. We have all been there, I myself became GREATLY annoyed at watching other players die at the hands of a griefer in a type 9 in Leesti, he was uploading it to you tube as a montage, killing haulers and cobras in the station without punishment. FD engineered a solution to that, the problem used to be FAR worse. People could float around inside the Coriolis for minutes, smashing everyone at high speed who came in or out. There is no need to lump me in with the people who are doing this. I am 500 light years away in a metallic asteroid field..

A tempban is not draconian, it's fitting punishment, the person can return to the game and will hopefully not repeat the actions that got them the vacation. If they continue doing it, well, eventually you have to cut off the decaying appendage or the entire body sickens and dies. I know many people who've gotten tempbans in other online games only to return and not do it again and actually become fun members of the community, I've been tempbanned in a few games myself, deserved every time.

We all paid to play this game, there's no excuse to let people use exploits to ruin it for anyone for any reason. Currently, I see nothing being done to stop people using exploits to ruin other people's enjoyment of the game for no reason except they face no repercussions. Pirating, ganking others, all that stuff so many cry about, I'm fully onboard with telling them to shut up, put on their big girl panties and move on. Exploit usage to grief, no, that needs to be punished, hard and fast, to make sure people understand that it's not allowed and there's a price for doing it.

*edit*
Addendum..
There's another thread from someone who got blasted by the Code blockage of Hutton, I've read it, and I didn't respond because so many others already said it so well. It's part of the game, no Code member did anything wrong, no exploits were used(the OP thinks hacking was involved in his interdiction, I can't comment on that, P2P is horrible for that sort of interaction), and it's perfectly legit and as far as I'm concerned, the person complaining should just pull up those knickers and get back to playing. I really don't have anything against getting killed in Open by anyone for any reason or no reason, it's something I recognize is part of playing in Open, it's big galaxy, cops aren't always around, and some systems are just bad neighborhoods.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

A tempban is not draconian, it's fitting punishment, the person can return to the game and will hopefully not repeat the actions that got them the vacation. If they continue doing it, well, eventually you have to cut off the decaying appendage or the entire body sickens and dies. I know many people who've gotten tempbans in other online games only to return and not do it again and actually become fun members of the community, I've been tempbanned in a few games myself, deserved every time.

We all paid to play this game, there's no excuse to let people use exploits to ruin it for anyone for any reason. Currently, I see nothing being done to stop people using exploits to ruin other people's enjoyment of the game for no reason except they face no repercussions. Pirating, ganking others, all that stuff so many cry about, I'm fully onboard with telling them to shut up, put on their big girl panties and move on. Exploit usage to grief, no, that needs to be punished, hard and fast, to make sure people understand that it's not allowed and there's a price for doing it.

"eventually you have to cut off the decaying appendage or the entire body sickens and dies" I recall that quote being used to justify a genocide once... Look you are just feeling annoyed. It will go away with time, they are not everywhere in the galaxy.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, it certainly sounds like some are suggesting that it is their fault because they chose to play in Open. I don't think the real question of the original analogy should have been if the person being shot was at fault for leaving their home. I think the real problem is what happens to the person doing the shooting.

Think about that scenario and then what you would realistically here in the news. The broadcast wouldn't be, 'Guy got shot this afternoon. He should have stayed at home.' The broadcast would more likely be, 'Brazen killer shoots man on street. City-wide police hunt for dangerous criminal continues.' Depending on the situation, there may be comments from people along the lines of, 'Well, he shouldn't have been in that dangerous area all alone.' That's fair enough. There are anarchy systems in ED too where you stray at your own risk. But in civilised (and enforced) systems, you would expect an adequate response to murder.

Killing other players is legitimate gameplay in ED. But there was supposed to be legitimate consequences as well. These haven't eventuated yet.

Also, just because you may not be physically touching someone in real life does not mean that you are not ACTUALLY violating that person. Cyber-bullying is a thing. There have been real life situations where people have been overwhelmed and in some cases committed suicide as a result of harassment and bullying via Twitter, Facebook, and the like. I am not suggesting that simply being attacked in this game is anywhere close to those scenarios. But please don't be under the illusion that your actions in a multi-player game with real people do not have a real affect on other people. It seems so easy for people to disconnect from common decency when they cannot see the person they are dealing with.

Well if you wish to equate being killed in Open in ED with the victims of cyber-bullying, I would say this is stretching the analogy too far. Once again, it is NOT considered this by FDEV, they will deal with players who are abusive or bullying in chat, but not if they are using the tools they were provided to do what the game lets them do.

 

[Elethiomel Zakalwe]

His comment was in response to this...



IRL stands for "in real life", in case you were unaware.

Ah. My mistake.

 

[Sandmann]

Killing other players is considered legitimate gameplay by FDEV, and that matters more than peoples opinions.

See what I mean? Your opinion is that it's ok to kill anyone anywhere coz it's open. If FDev's opinion differed to yours, you'd be the one demanding that your opinion mattered.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) they don't consider killing other players in EVERY circumstance to be legitimate, which is why they beefed up external station defences, and put in no fire zones and internal defences, precisely to stop griefing in a situation they didn't approve of. Thus we can say that killing players is NOT ALWAYS a legitimate tactic and it IS sometimes unacceptable and thus griefing, however while it's easy to prevent in stations, it's not as simple elsewhere. I suspect this is part of the reason why they take such a liberal view of it, because they know it's pointless to do otherwise.

Griefing is called griefing, not because it breaks some arbitrary rules, but because it's INTENT is to cause grief (a feeling). You can have two people do exactly the same action and have only one be griefing... because it's about INTENT, not action, and therefore can't be policed or prevented, especially so by software. It's also a subjective thing... you may feel that killing another player was down to a random set of circumstances and that nothing personal was intended, but if it's the third time today he's been killed in a manner he FEELS was unfair you may very well FEEL griefed, even though you meant nothing personal.

Yes, griefing SHOULD be prevented, but it's something that's very difficult to clearly define and impossible to accurately police, so demanding that they "do something about it" is pointless.

And as I pointed out before, the same applies to combat logging. Software can't be SURE that it was the player's intent to avoid a death, so FDev can either be generous or suspicious. They've decided to be generous with their judgements on intent for BOTH types of antisocial playstyles.

 

[Kristov]

"eventually you have to cut off the decaying appendage or the entire body sickens and dies" I recall that quote being used to justify a genocide once... Look you are just feeling annoyed. It will go away with time, they are not everywhere in the galaxy.

- - - Updated - - -



Well if you wish to equate being killed in Open in ED with the victims of cyber-bullying, I would say this is stretching the analogy too far. Once again, it is NOT considered this by FDEV, they will deal with players who are abusive or bullying in chat, but not if they are using the tools they were provided to do what the game lets them do.

And I can find any number of quotes used to justify a crime that have nothing to do with the crime, it makes them no less valid. People who know there are no consequences for their actions WILL do things they otherwise wouldn't, this is a fact, well established and documented, humans aren't the only animals that do it either. And I wasn't a victim of this exploit, I still want the persons responsible punished, I'm like that though, very big on making sure people don't do things to ruin other's enjoyment in a video game via exploits/hacks/cheats, years of running game servers and hunting the people who do these things for a living tends to make one that way.

Also, I agree with you, cyberbullying, really? What's next, trigger warnings so no one gets offended by your Commander name or ship type or faction choice? It's a VIDEO game, getting killed by another player is part of the package in Open, as long as they aren't using an exploit, suck it up buttercup and grow a pair, or find someone to borrow them from.

 

[Khelder]

I recall that quote being used to justify a genocide once...

Perhaps you should re-think that comment.

Well if you wish to equate being killed in Open in ED with the victims of cyber-bullying, I would say this is stretching the analogy too far. Once again, it is NOT considered this by FDEV, they will deal with players who are abusive or bullying in chat, but not if they are using the tools they were provided to do what the game lets them do.

No. I'm not equating killing in Open ED with cyber-bullying. I was trying to emphasise that the effects on a real person can be felt in a real way. Abusing the game mechanics to destroy the ships of people who have just spent over an hour and a half of their personal time to achieve a goal is not a no-lose scenario. Even if that person accepts the risks of playing in Open, I'm almost certain their feelings are going to be hurt. It's not just harmless fun for the griefer.

Now, it seems, many will just trot out the usual 'harden up' varients. That, I feel, is just a sad trend in the way inter-personal relations have gone these days.

 

[Rojo Habe]

It's a game. Not a valid comparison. Grow up and deal with it.

I was referring to the fact that he seems to think that pirates have their very own server called "Open".

It's quite paradoxical that if I want to just bimble about doing my own thing I have very little to fear from Open play. I may occasionally come across situations I can't handle and get myself killed, and that's all well and good. As soon as I want to participate in community activities, however, I'm far better off retreating to a mode where that community doesn't exist.

Not a complaint, you understand, just an observation.

And don't tell me to grow up. This whole thread was triggered by childish behaviour. Besides that, it's gone OT. It's not about PVP vs. Open, it's about whether we should be expected to put up with delinquent behaviour. I have no more to say on the matter so I'm unsubscribing now.

 

[Cheese Helmet]

I think the best thing would be more incenitve to hunt player killers.

Killing a clean CMDR gives a 50k bounty.

Remove the silly 1 mil bounty cap for a single system.

Allow bounty vouchers to be turned in anywhere, with a percentage tax charged based on the distance you are from the system the bounty was given in. Consider it a service fee.

This would make hunting wanted commanders much more worth the trouble. If I see someone undermining one of my systems, but they escpae, and then I see them again in another system 150 Ly away, and my kill warrant scan shows they are still wanted, its almost not worth killing the guy because I'm going to have to go on a wild goose chase just to turn in the assorted bounties that guy has accrued across the galaxy.

 

[CMDR Starschulz]

@cheese helmet, the problem with that solution is that it enables goldfarmers to thrive once again. did you ever see the top 5 wanted list where the top player was named Gold4cash and had billions of dollars in bounty?

 

[Cheese Helmet]

@cheese helmet, the problem with that solution is that it enables goldfarmers to thrive once again. did you ever see the top 5 wanted list where the top player was named Gold4cash and had billions of dollars in bounty?

No, i didnt. What exactly was happening?

 

[Khelder]

@cheese helmet, the problem with that solution is that it enables goldfarmers to thrive once again. did you ever see the top 5 wanted list where the top player was named Gold4cash and had billions of dollars in bounty?

Agreed, unfortunately. I think the better solution is to have more NPC involvement. Even if they're easier to fight off than PCs. The non-stop harassment would at least be better than nothing. If the crimes become particularly high, I don't see why any station or outpost (except possibly the ones in anarchy systems) would allow these criminals to approach, let alone dock.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Fold

Stop confusing grieving and RP thank you very much.

 

[CMDR Starschulz]

No, i didnt. What exactly was happening?

People farmed bounties using the cargo scanner. a player would fill cargo full of illegal goods, and another would repeatedly scan them. fines would total up into the billions and maybe even trillions, and they would sell it for real money. Not sure how legitimate the sites were, but one of them you could find then by searching "elite dangerous gold farming".

 

[Calaban]

Sadly some forms of sociopaths can only have fun by causing mental or physical distress to another human being.

Literally- nothing else gives them that rush of adrenaline.

They lurk the forums looking for the victims to whine about it as their sick little trophy- they sit there and grin and think "yeahhh I did that!", hoping for rants or quitposts and declarations that the game was ruined for them. They get ecstatic if there is a video of them, narrated by someone literally tearing their hair out in impotent frustration.

Its messed up human wiring. Its Sadism. The problem with internet gaming is its anonymity: If a guy was a genuine Sadist griefer to my face, I get to rearrange it (his face) for him. No such social repercussion controls online. Yet.

Unfortunately euthanasia is frowned upon world wide nowadays, and voteban mechanisms are just as easily abused by the abusers themselves.

There was talk of a "griefer instance" idea during Beta; if a player was teamkilling or being a general menace, and enough people "ignored" him by word of mouth, eventually the only instance he would be able to log into would be the rancid pits of an instance populated by only other player killers. A Penal colony sort of thing. ... dont know if its implemented yet.

but maybe that what the "block Player" means- he is banned from any of YOUR instances. wouldnt that be nice- since we are peer to peer, we can list certain peers we would rather never sync up with.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Sadly some forms of sociopaths can only have fun by causing mental or physical distress to another human being.

Literally- nothing else gives them that rush of adrenaline.

They lurk the forums looking for the victims to whine about it as their sick little trophy- they sit there and grin and think "yeahhh I did that!", hoping for rants or quitposts and declarations that the game was ruined for them. They get ecstatic if there is a video of them, narrated by someone literally tearing their hair out in impotent frustration.

Its messed up human wiring. Its Sadism. The problem with internet gaming is its anonymity: If a guy was a genuine Sadist griefer to my face, I get to rearrange it (his face) for him. No such social repercussion controls online. Yet.

Unfortunately euthanasia is frowned upon world wide nowadays, and voteban mechanisms are just as easily abused by the abusers themselves.

There was talk of a "griefer instance" idea during Beta; if a player was teamkilling or being a general menace, and enough people "ignored" him by word of mouth, eventually the only instance he would be able to log into would be the rancid pits of an instance populated by only other player killers. A Penal colony sort of thing. ... dont know if its implemented yet.

but maybe that what the "block Player" means- he is banned from any of YOUR instances. wouldnt that be nice- since we are peer to peer, we can list certain peers we would rather never sync up with.

Would be nice.

 

[OnePercent]

The problem is not griefers, the problem is being able to combat murderous psychopaths within the game mechanics.

Unfortunately, the games pathetic instance capacity of only 32....! CMDR's prevents being able to group up and go open season, instead you get massive disapointment when you and your mates go for a CMDR bounty hunt but are forever plagued with trying to get in their instance.

 

[Schmack]

The only thing I would change is spawning back at the same station you last visited. Instead I would have everyone spawn at the starter station/s. Don't want to be there? Fine, don't get killed. Griefers will get killed and no one wants to spend that much time hopping systems to grief the same people again.

Otherwise, it's poor form sure, but it's no worse than someone camping at a pad while they eat dinner, logging out to leave a station, changing modes to avoid a blockade and a host of other things. The community cannot police itself because it hates itself. It seems to want to play alone, but with everyone else.

 

[t00thPIK]

The simple solution is to have police show up to a crime scene a bit more rapidly than they do now. This is how it works in EVE Online, and it has worked well since that game came out in 2003. If you happen to be in a "lawless" system, though, you're on your own.
People need to be able to play the character they want to play, and if that character happens to be a murderor, then they need an avenue in which to do that without risk of being griefed themeselves by the NPC police. Lawless space is the best most logical place for this to happen. If you're in a well policed civilised system, though, you're going to be running a lot more risk taking out targets.

I'm not suggesting that FD should implement EVE's system safety scale (1.0 for safe space right down to 0.0 for dangerous space with 0.4 being the initial lawless rating), but something similar that's more unique to Elite would be good.

 

[zxaber]

Haven't read all nine pages, but here's my two cents anyway.

I personally have no issues with griefers existing. Truth be told, I enjoy PvP and even less honorable tactics like ramming for kills can turn into fun little bullfighting games. As such, I am 100% against any ban, limitation, account action against a griefer. And indeed, player killing has to be possible. I mean, what threat does a pirate have if he can't kill you for not complying? Player fighting,for gain or not, is as much a part of the game as anything else.

However, I agree that there isn't enough penalty for mass player killing. I'd be all for ingame solutions, such that could put a player at a disadvantage and mean killing without reason is a net loss. One idea I either had or saw a while back was a "Public Enemy" wanted status that couldn't be removed manually. For every unprovoked kill (including NPCs), a player would get a tick (in addition to existing fines and bounties). Perhaps more if the victim's ship worth was excessively under the killer's. Every so often, say once every ten minutes, a single tick would naturally degrade. Should the player reach a threshold, like five ticks, the ticks are consumed and the player gets a wanted (and bounty) status for that jurisdiction (Federal, Imperial, Alliance) which cannot be paid away and is not removed upon death. The wanted status would, itself, degrade after it's own set time (A week? 24 playtime hours? What would be fair?), though racking up five more ticks would refresh it's countdown.

This would accomplish the following:
• Pirates can still kill if needed, with the same bounty system as before
• Mass murderers can still git their kicks, but they would be identifiable, and worth killing (bounty collectible perhaps once per bounty hunter, or maybe halves for that bounty hunter alone each time they collect it)
• Possible sanctions against Public Enemies, such as docking restrictions for some docks (like a super pro-Fed dock if you have a Fed Public Enemy status) or insurance penalties. Maybe increased NPC bounty hunters (and police in applicable systems), and an increased rate of them being in tougher ships, in every instance that has a Public Enemy.
• Anarchy systems would have no jurisdictions and thus no restrictions on killing. Here be griefers.

 

[Lupis]

Stop confusing grieving and RP thank you very much.

What CODE is doing at Hutton is Greifing plain and simple.

The event there isn't making money, many are in fact losing money from it just to haul the scrap there. Code is just going there to kill players for no good reason, that is greifing plain and simple.