The Lightweight Engineering Effect on Hull Reinforcements is pretty much completely useless.

Lightweight reduces its own hull reinforcement and weight, in exchange for increasing the hull reinforcement of the ship itself. So logically, in a situation where you have a ship with nearly maxed resistances and a large default hull pool, you'd expect it to become useful, right?

Well...no.

On a Type 10(which has the largest base hull value in the game), with maxed out resistances from stacked Heavy Duty hull reinforcements, and when engineered on a class 1 hull reinforcement(so the lost hull bonus from Heavy Duty is as minimized as possible)...the Heavy Duty engineering still wins out.

Seriously, come on. The effect is completely useless. It should at least give something that's occasionally worth taking.

Edit: Oh, I forgot the suggestion part. Uhh...it's currently useless. It should be...not useless. That is all.
 
I mean... it's a type 10. A class 1D HRP has a mass of 1 ton. Lightweighting that HRP shaves off... a quarter of a ton. The T10 has a base mass of 1200t before you add even the core modules, so of course trimming off a few kilograms isn't going to make a noticable difference.

Lightweight engineering is best used for situations where you want to save weight, oddly enough. Such as when you're wanting to shave grams off your dirty enhanced performance drive courier.

edit: running a quick check in coriolis - a g5 lightweight HRP with deep plating experimental will get you slightly better protection than an unengineered module for a modest reduction in mass, which is pretty much what it's for.
 
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Craith

Volunteer Moderator
...

Lightweight engineering is best used for situations where you want to save weight, oddly enough. Such as when you're wanting to shave grams off your dirty enhanced performance drive courier.

...
The thing is, it is lighter to just use a HRP one size lower and Heavy Duty it than to use a Lightweight mod, and you get better protection out of it. I usually put a size 1 Heavy Duty HRP into my size 2 military slot on the eagle because of this. And if you need the weight loss urgently enough to go for a size 1 lightweight HRP, you're probably better of leaving it out and hope your shields (if you have some) hold anyhow. If you have no shields for racing, a single size 1 HRP won't safe you in case of a collision at the speeds you are going to be travelling.
 
I mean... it's a type 10. A class 1D HRP has a mass of 1 ton. Lightweighting that HRP shaves off... a quarter of a ton. The T10 has a base mass of 1200t before you add even the core modules, so of course trimming off a few kilograms isn't going to make a noticable difference.

Lightweight engineering is best used for situations where you want to save weight, oddly enough. Such as when you're wanting to shave grams off your dirty enhanced performance drive courier.

edit: running a quick check in coriolis - a g5 lightweight HRP with deep plating experimental will get you slightly better protection than an unengineered module for a modest reduction in mass, which is pretty much what it's for.

How often is it that you both want to shave weight AND are using HRPs?

That said, what craith said is true. A class 4 heavy duty compared to a class 5 lightweight, for example, the heavy duty weighs 1 tonne less, gives 115 more hull reinforcement, and 13% more resists.

The design philosophy behind the option is puzzling.
 
I mean... it's a type 10. A class 1D HRP has a mass of 1 ton. Lightweighting that HRP shaves off... a quarter of a ton. The T10 has a base mass of 1200t before you add even the core modules, so of course trimming off a few kilograms isn't going to make a noticable difference.

Lightweight engineering is best used for situations where you want to save weight, oddly enough. Such as when you're wanting to shave grams off your dirty enhanced performance drive courier.

edit: running a quick check in coriolis - a g5 lightweight HRP with deep plating experimental will get you slightly better protection than an unengineered module for a modest reduction in mass, which is pretty much what it's for.

Its like people who order loads of fast food along with diet drinks- whats the point? U gotta chonk the chonk in a T10.
 
On a Type 10(which has the largest base hull value in the game), with maxed out resistances from stacked Heavy Duty hull reinforcements, and when engineered on a class 1 hull reinforcement(so the lost hull bonus from Heavy Duty is as minimized as possible)...the Heavy Duty engineering still wins out.

don't get your reasoning there. it's still lighter, likely at the cost of some protection, right? that's exactly what it is for.

now look at the engine profile curve for the T10: a little less mass will have negligible impact, if any. try on a viper, fdl, eagle or anything that's not a brick ...

The thing is, it is lighter to just use a HRP one size lower and Heavy Duty it than to use a Lightweight mod, and you get better protection out of it. I usually put a size 1 Heavy Duty HRP into my size 2 military slot on the eagle because of this.

true. i don't think that's wrong, though. i very often use downsized heavy duty on any slot, often even size 1. reasoning is simple: speed is high priority for me and not just for racing, protection is an extra. this applies to other modules as well: eg e and d class boosters provide the best protection/mass ratio, as do lower size shield extenders, cells, module reinforcements ... speed builds require compromises across the board.
 
don't get your reasoning there. it's still lighter, likely at the cost of some protection, right? that's exactly what it is for.

now look at the engine profile curve for the T10: a little less mass will have negligible impact, if any. try on a viper, fdl, eagle or anything that's not a brick ...



true. i don't think that's wrong, though. i very often use downsized heavy duty on any slot, often even size 1. reasoning is simple: speed is high priority for me and not just for racing, protection is an extra. this applies to other modules as well: eg e and d class boosters provide the best protection/mass ratio, as do lower size shield extenders, cells, module reinforcements ... speed builds require compromises across the board.

The reason I did that was because it has the most hull, so a boost to hull would have the most impact. Even in the best case, it doesn't beat out Heavy Duty. Which perhaps you could argue it shouldn't, but even in the best case it doesn't beat it out in terms of weight efficiency, either, sooo....
 
The reason I did that was because it has the most hull, so a boost to hull would have the most impact. Even in the best case, it doesn't beat out Heavy Duty. Which perhaps you could argue it shouldn't, but even in the best case it doesn't beat it out in terms of weight efficiency, either, sooo....

yes, i agree. almost all my ships are lightweight and none uses lightweight hrp, but downsized heavy duty. you are correct, i don't see a scenario where lightweight mod would make sense ... except when only size 1 slots are left to fill. so, small fish.
 

Craith

Volunteer Moderator
yes, i agree. almost all my ships are lightweight and none uses lightweight hrp, but downsized heavy duty. you are correct, i don't see a scenario where lightweight mod would make sense ... except when only size 1 slots are left to fill. so, small fish.
.. and you only want to use one HRP - otherwise you're better off with leaving one slot open and using a heavy duty.
 
I actually use it. If you are trying to keep your ship fast, then it has usefulness. Unfortunately, some think that maxed out armor is the only thing that matters with armor. If your fighting style is limited to only "stand and deliver" and has no concept of manuevering, then this is useless for you.

And to be fair, some of my designs are "stand and deliver" like when when designed mostly for CZ or HazRES combat. There is always a target around, and survivability in a furball like that is tantamount...

;'{P~~~
 
Military armor + lightweight works ok for trader and/or miner. Just enough to start pick remnants of pirate when police arrives :D
 
The thing is, it is lighter to just use a HRP one size lower and Heavy Duty it than to use a Lightweight mod, and you get better protection out of it. I usually put a size 1 Heavy Duty HRP into my size 2 military slot on the eagle because of this. And if you need the weight loss urgently enough to go for a size 1 lightweight HRP, you're probably better of leaving it out and hope your shields (if you have some) hold anyhow. If you have no shields for racing, a single size 1 HRP won't safe you in case of a collision at the speeds you are going to be travelling.
Sounds familiar...
I've got an Eagle build saved on Coriolis, 'TEA fighter'.
One of yours? :D
 

Craith

Volunteer Moderator
could be, although mine is called TEA Interceptor ... I had TEA Fighter in the past, but it is better now (imo)
 
Almost every time.

I'm curious of the circumstances? Personally, if I were for some inexplicable reason limited on weight(since the vast majority of combat ships shrug off almost any amount of weight unscathed), I'd just omit the HRPs entirely rather than try to make them lighter.
 
I'm curious of the circumstances? Personally, if I were for some inexplicable reason limited on weight(since the vast majority of combat ships shrug off almost any amount of weight unscathed), I'd just omit the HRPs entirely rather than try to make them lighter.

Mass may be less important than other factors on combat ships, but it's not irrelevant, and it becomes more important the smaller the ship gets.

Anything with EPTs in particular is likely to be severely mass constrained and with the exception of the iCourier, most of these vessels are very limited in the amount of shielding it's practical to equip, to the point where most of their resilience is going to come from hull. So, if I'm in one of these ships, it's probably got multiple HRPs (indeed, every optional except a low-draw biweave shield gen and a single MRP is likely to be HRPs).

Lightweight HRPs are still worthless here, but undersized heavy duty HRPs are very useful.
 
Welcome to Elite Dangerous, where 50% of all engineer effects are useless and another 30% are extremely niche to the point where they are only used to show off particular extreme builds rather than being effective. There's a good reason why each module only really has 1-2 engineering mods that people actually bother with.
 
Hmm... vaguely remember something about ramming factors,.. could it (any advantages in combat / non-evasive ships) be that?

( as well as good for weight reduction )

i.e. base hull-armour-points-total , BEFORE reinforcements?

i.e. reinforcements might NOT add to one of the factorials in ramming calcs... but lightweight allows for more thrust not having to push against RELUCTANT mass?
and that means more SPEED. in-space, you do not have the constant drag factor of gravity, so that might do more than your expect.

Same with DENSITY. speed X density probably does more in zero-gravity than it does not amongst a HMO's spacetime 'bending-down'.

( already-at-speed X mass ) is the main part of the base for damage-calculation no doubt...
but at-the-moment-of-contact push from thrusters is also present when a collision happens,
so it would make sense, if they could be bothered doing it to that level of detail,
head-on, side-on... it'd get tricky no doubt.

Lightwieght armour points to the hull before reinforcements,.. might make for a more rigid frame without bulk ... like a rally-car's rollbar frame, compared to a APC, or tank or overloaded van full of yellowpages taped to the windows ( Mythbusters episode ) [
Source: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2n9c04].
( from 6m:40s )

A light rollbar cage would rotate as a result of being-hit , and on the OUTside, be more rigid BEFORE buckling (defiormation reluctance) ...
compared to the heavier mass of the whole ship BEING RELUCTANT TO BE MOVED by collisions,..

...but more weight adding to the base factor ( like when starships in Star treck crunch through each other and don't stop, despite the rigidity - distance 'betrays' the rigidity ) size might also come in to play, with the larger ships? i've noticed long tanks rotate more as they SHOULD, when rammed at either end ... so if the programming can do that, then perhaps it's also complicated enough to take into consideration where the thrust's coming from AS the collision hits, and where it's hitting, etc.

ex. head on ... both are pushing ALL the weight into the front...

ex. 2 one hitting nose-first into another's REAR at a 90-degrees angle ... the 2nd one's thrust would do LITTLE, by comparison, and could even make it worse, putting strain on the rear of it's own structure.

I would not be surprised if turning OFF your thrust when about to be sideswiped, reduces damage a little.

sort of like trying to imagine the stresses on fireworks, based on the shape of the firework's deign. a lot of force, really tests the spinning potentials, while way too much thrust is barely accounted for by design - tanks in ED by comparison, would be barely getting any momentary thrust at all, compared to superfast fighters. it's mass-reluctance / inertia that makes ramming in something light against something heavy ... no dislocation ... so crazy to do ... BUT...

that does not mean that lighteight would not be potentially useful for a rollcage like rigidity ... in ramming at high speed versus OTHER fighters, or in more marginal differences.

say... a viper ramming ;
1 a regular light cobra (450 Kph) also with lightweight base-hull "boost",
compared to
2 a much slower (375 Kph) cobra m4 with heavy duties everywhere. It's not heavy enough to be immobile like a tank, so dislocation DOES occur, and the rammer is not just splat! into a wall... BUT ... this one does not have a BASE-reinforced hull structure, instead, it is like the van in mythbusters with all the yellow pages - the speed & rigidity of the attacker tests the STRUCTURE ... not the panelling / surface areas in terms of penetration / plate-deformation.

a bit like the parallel nature of armour points total vs. structural integrity?

rigidity X speed might be deadlier in ramming, than armour-total X LOWer speed,
but more armour / mass, ofc still gets you better survivability?

the hull "boost" ... might represent part of that? a bit like kinetic resistance,.. an UNSEEN resistance? works BEST at high speed AND versus other rigidity ... works a LITTLE, at low-speed vs. rigidity.

i would also not be surprised if high speed & "hull boost" works against kinetic weapons when they're hitting you at obtuse angles to your own DIRECTION of speed, compared to head-on. a bit like Kenitic resistance ALSO should, work better when being fired at from behind, basically. cannons, multicannons, shock cannons,.. whatever. Dunno if that's been implimented, but it's been SUGGESTED.

if it is in now,.. then it's possible "hull boost" raising the BASE armour total, rather than the reinforcements,.. does multiple things like that.

getting back to ramming then,

which IS head on... lol

:D

hmm... limited usefulness. if-so,
NEVER versus heavier opponents ofc,..
but additionally, avoid ramming with lightweight, if the other guy is coming AT you head-on. if you've got the rigidity, you can hit THEM side on,.. but don't let also-high-speedXrigid hit-YOU. In other words, only in ATTACK,.. not in defence,.. and ONLY when you've got a good speed advantage.

sort of like... a high speed bullet is made of lead, or gold. heavy, but SOFT.

a just-as-fast high speed bullet, is made of a titanium / iron alloy,
lighter, but more rigid when it hits.

it'd carve it's way through light armour of course, but against RIGID armour, it might shatter, or get diverted as it's trying to get thruogh and just get stuck in the armour,

while a HEAVY bullet, as crude as it might seem, is MORE reluctant to change direction, and so continues through to internals. does less to the armour, but does penetrate.

a bit like that difference,.. ramming with-a-rollcage so to speak, or a stronger one... would be more like the titanium-alloy. good versus LIGHT armour, risky, WORSE, versus anything heavy.

------

Practical uses?
pfffff.

could just be an incidental point i guess,
but it might depend on how skilled you are at ramming. tanks versus tanks is mostly about weight,

but ramming with lighter ships... not so much, i have to say.
rarely doing a head-on ... hitting edges of ships if you can rather than the middle, to cause them to spin out of control,
it has it's uses,

perhaps lightweight can COMBINE with a skilled fighter BETTER than heavy duty, if they do not NEED armour, with BI-shields, a good distributor, and patience, etc

Another comparison ... when in a tank at a capital ship... and slowing down to just 'touch' ram the exhausts, to do a lot of damage, at very LOW speed.
If you come crashing in at high speed, the capital ships say-absolutely-definitively-no mass wise ... and you do yourself uneccessary damage in the process,
but if you slow down, and just nose-it, just tap it,.. you can still do enough damage to crush the vents in one hit, or one + a little fire in your approach or as you're reversing away.

I'm saying
lightweight's higher BASE, armour, might be a kind of OPPOSITE, of that.
Only when light,
Only when not letting center-of-mass of your opponent crunch your rollcage,
Only when at high-speed, or else the speed X rigidity won't combine.

* shrugs *
 
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there might also be slower integrity LOSS ... from lightweight with a higher BASE hull-armour rating,

whereas if you fly long distances in heavy-duty base hull, but save on weight with no reinforcement packages ... integrity might degrade faster?

* shrugs * dunno. integrity loss might be a simple % effect ... it might be a CHANCE based of totals. If it's a base chance based of totals, then a higher BASE hull-armour-points total, might be the NUMBER used, before integrity damage is chance-rolled?

I've definately noticed that surpercruising at higher speeds tests integrity more over long distances when at high SC speed , but does little when NEAR zero SC speeds.
Even only shaving a little off 95% thrust, or 90% thrust, reduces integrity repair costs.

Could be that BASE armour is a yeah... a higher number less likely to take any damage, before it's taken away ... could also be that a higher number gets affected by a SIMPLE % reduction, and so more loses MORE! Depends on the calculation.
* shrugs *
suppose i'm saying it might be a 2-step calculation? IF-current-base-armour-total is MORE than f1 (normal base total for ship type) ... then ...
chance is reduced, amount is reduced... whatever.

i.e. with no "hull boost" but with armour-reinforcement ... you're still at 1-for-1 f1. And if your engine struggles with the weight, say, with downsizing... you're hit with multiple multipliers. I would not be surprised if you could get away with downsized engines AND lightweight hull, to conteract the strain on your engines?

i've got that already on my explorer ships... but not on my t9, both of which have downsized engines, only the explorers have BOTH.
and i have to say, my t9 gets a LOT more integrity repair costs, even from short trips (100K trips within a system cost me 20K? ) .
* shrugs * that could just be because of the quantity factor, but i don't get it from normal sized engines, so i'm sure about that.

Prrrety sure i don't get it on my explorers as much, when they DO have lightweight. the amounts are comparable to normal ships.

might be worth testing for explorers?

get 2 eagles or sidewinders or something,
with downsized engines,

one with lightweight hull,

travel the same distance to the same destination, at the same time?

how MUCH integrity damage is done, then calculated backwards?
i.e. scale the COST, which is a number not just a % ... to the "hull boost", and see if BOTH sets are the same?

i.e. if the one withOUT lightweight's proportion of damage, is HIGHER than the one with it, then lightweight DOES reduce integrity loss?

it might also be worth making sure you test that SIMULTANEOUSLY - when you're talking about superlight, they might get affected by planets / SS gravitional arrangements / extra-SS stuff, temporary or cyclical forces on the suns of the system you're in ... who knows. just to be sure
 
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