The Meat Grinder

[Good Whiskey]

"Every defeat, every heartbreak, every loss, contains its own seed, its own lesson on how to improve your performance the next time." - Malcolm X

There is a lot of conversation on these forums about ganking. Although it is by no means as common as some make it out to be, it is nonetheless a thing that happens in Open. There is also a lot of conversation about things like high gravity crashes, changes to markets that reduce overall profits from mining, difficulties with unlocking modules due to material requirements, and so on. It's all adversity. It's the struggle. It's the unavoidable meat grinder that everyone must walk through at some point.

But do we actually come out the other side better off than when we went in?

I came to the conclusion quite a few years ago that dying in a fire is actually a marvelous thing. It's something to be celebrated; a moment in time when we must face loss and come to terms with it. And the more I've lost, the less losing has bothered me. It's like when I started playing poker and became utterly enraged by other players sucking out with crazy river cards that blew my 90%+ chance of winning the hand right out the window. I couldn't help it, because it wasn't fair.

Years later, I know that "fair" has nothing to do with it. I barely notice it when it happens any more.

I am of the strange mind that every Elite player should, as soon as they have a solid grasp of how to handle their ships, arm themselves to the teeth and go looking for someone who will kill them. I think they should go in guns blazing... and die gloriously. I think they should take the first ship they're genuinely proud of owning... and fly it directly into the closest neutron star. If everyone did these things at the start of their Elite careers, I think they would be far less inclined to fear loss in this game.

If everyone did this, the galaxy would be a very different place.

Do you agree? Do you think that baptism by fire allows us to enjoy the game more? Is there some inherent merit to being less concerned with setbacks and more concerned with personal growth as a pilot, or is this just nonsense that you feel feeds an element of Elite that you despise? I ask because I'm not particularly interested in the nature of the challenges we face. What I am interested in is how we approach and overcome those challenges. It's our mindsets that are fascinating, not the mechanics of life and death.

Is dying in a fire truly a marvelous thing?

 

[Speedcuffs]

 

[Deleted member 38366]

"Every defeat, every heartbreak, every loss, contains its own seed, its own lesson on how to improve your performance the next time." - Malcolm X

You have to ask the right Questions.

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. - Sun Tzu

If everyone did this, the galaxy would be a very different place.

Yes, it'd be heaven for GvP'ers - killing the same Transporters or Explorers over and over and over and over and over and [....] over again.

Is dying in a fire truly a marvelous thing?

For as long as it's viewed through the Cockpit of a Ganker - of course.
Otherwise, it's simply pointless and does absolutely nothing for Mission Success - whatever the own Mission is.
It's merely a detraction at best - at worst a very expensive and potentially non-recoverable loss.

So if you know what's out there in Open and especially in Hotspots - that knowledge and the existence of Alternative Game Modes that permit a Galaxy that makes sense... now that's winning half the battle.
Why fight meaningless Battles if they don't make any sense and you don't have to in the first place?

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

"Every defeat, every heartbreak, every loss, contains its own seed, its own lesson on how to improve your performance the next time." - Malcolm X

There is a lot of conversation on these forums about ganking. Although it is by no means as common as some make it out to be, it is nonetheless a thing that happens in Open. There is also a lot of conversation about things like high gravity crashes, changes to markets that reduce overall profits from mining, difficulties with unlocking modules due to material requirements, and so on. It's all adversity. It's the struggle. It's the unavoidable meat grinder that everyone must walk through at some point.

But do we actually come out the other side better off than when we went in?

I came to the conclusion quite a few years ago that dying in a fire is actually a marvelous thing. It's something to be celebrated; a moment in time when we must face loss and come to terms with it. And the more I've lost, the less losing has bothered me. It's like when I started playing poker and became utterly enraged by other players sucking out with crazy river cards that blew my 90%+ chance of winning the hand right out the window. I couldn't help it, because it wasn't fair.

Years later, I know that "fair" has nothing to do with it. I barely notice it when it happens any more.

I am of the strange mind that every Elite player should, as soon as they have a solid grasp of how to handle their ships, arm themselves to the teeth and go looking for someone who will kill them. I think they should go in guns blazing... and die gloriously. I think they should take the first ship they're genuinely proud of owning... and fly it directly into the closest neutron star. If everyone did these things at the start of their Elite careers, I think they would be far less inclined to fear loss in this game.

If everyone did this, the galaxy would be a very different place.

Do you agree? Do you think that baptism by fire allows us to enjoy the game more? Is there some inherent merit to being less concerned with setbacks and more concerned with personal growth as a pilot, or is this just nonsense that you feel feeds an element of Elite that you despise? I ask because I'm not particularly interested in the nature of the challenges we face. What I am interested in is how we approach and overcome those challenges. It's our mindsets that are fascinating, not the mechanics of life and death.

Is dying in a fire truly a marvelous thing?

I did pretty much this, when I first started I would do smuggling runs to top up the rebuy fund / upgrade the ship, then go into a CZ guns blazing brain stalling to learn from my mistakes. Must of worked as I made combat elite in less than four months.

 

[Good Whiskey]

For as long as it's viewed through the Cockpit of a Ganker - of course.
Otherwise, it's simply pointless and does absolutely nothing for Mission Success - whatever the own Mission is.
It's merely a detraction at best - at worst a very expensive and potentially non-recoverable loss.

Interesting point. In your opinion, losing the pixels doesn't actually make you more attuned to the prospect of loss. But what if you had gone in expecting to lose those pixels? What if losing them meant less to you? Would Elite actually be more fun?

I did pretty much this, when I first started I would do smuggling runs to top up the rebuy fund / upgrade the ship, then go into a CZ guns blazing brain stalling to learn from my mistakes. Must of worked as I made combat elite in less than four months.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. This attitude right here. I think it would benefit everyone who plays Elite to approach it this way. If they did, perhaps Solo and PGs would be less attractive prospects, because you have less reason to be in those modes. I use Solo myself when I'm doing something both risky and time-intensive, because I want to guarantee my progress. If I didn't have that option though, I have a sneaking suspicion that Elite would be more... exciting.

 

[gorankar]

As long as there is a real loss, it will be bothersome to most. I am not interested in having my ship blown up, my mission cargo or exploration data lost. I am just as uninterested in blowing up your ship. I typically save my violence for NPC's, and idiots that interdict me with inappropriate ships. I mean who interdicts a battle outfit Cutter/Annie/Vette in an Eagle unless part of a gank wing, and then opens fire. Just because they saw an Eagle take on Vette on youtube and win, they think they can. Well they actually can't most of the time.

As always, there are modes to prevent stupidity.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Interesting point. In your opinion, losing the pixels doesn't actually make you more attuned to the prospect of loss. But what if you had gone in expecting to lose those pixels? What if losing them meant less to you? Would Elite actually be more fun?

That's a key issue actually.
"no relevance" isn't something the Game works on, rather the opposite. It's not i.e. a classic FPS with unlimited and inconsequential respawns by design.

To find out how much fun there is in that in respect to ELITE... just witness the condition of CQC IMHO.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. This attitude right here. I think it would benefit everyone who plays Elite to approach it this way. If they did, perhaps Solo and PGs would be less attractive prospects, because you have less reason to be in those modes. I use Solo myself when I'm doing something both risky and time-intensive, because I want to guarantee my progress. If I didn't have that option though, I have a sneaking suspicion that Elite would be more... exciting.

And that's where the age old logical fallacy sits : Hotel California. Pro Open/Open only/Everyone should do it etc.
It isn't the attitude of the Solo/PG goer that needs change - it's the attitude of Open (as a concept).

I'm sure once the riffraff other titles have long banned or locked up into tight quarters is removed (or put to good use by clever Game Design) - Open would become more attractive.
And once it became more attractive, I'm sure it'd become more populated.

Right now, ELITE wouldn't become more exiting - it'd just demonstrate its insane imbalances and deep design flaws far more aggressively than it already does.
I remember FDev streams in Open being absolute highlights of everything that's wrong with it - with grim accuracy and repetition like clockwork.

Until that changes, Open will remain exactly what it is. A heavily flawed mode filled to the brim with GvP'ers in Hotspots and a completely chaotic/lawless/bizarre design.
It's simply not attractive in its deranged and severely flawed design right now (as a concept).

IMHO the following statement fits best :
...all Modes are created equal, and it's up to every individual CMDR to make that personal choice. None being the wiser, all Modes offering unique qualities that come with unique shortcomings. There is no "right" or "wrong" when picking Game Modes.

PS.
I'd be all in favor of seeing Open fixed (Anti-Cheat protection, severe punishment of confrimed cheaters, Engineers imbalances & Ship roles imbalances, fake/catastrophic C&P System, long-term consequences, potent deterrent against GvP while permitting PvP Piracy etc.)
Work should be invested to make Open Play the primary and globally preferred Mode IMHO - it deserves it.
However, the prerequisites are very high - and unfortunately FDev aren't known to be experienced MMO balancing experts :/

 

[Rat Catcher]

Neutron stars are too kind... I lost 2 ships to the same White Dwarf early in my career, and yes, I was fond of the ship as I'd worked hard to get it, bloomin' thing didn't get me the 3rd time though

Just made a rookie error a few minutes back and had the station blow up one of my ships... (that'll teach me to fire on another player in the NFZ) so a 9 mill rebuy... then back on to lurking in wait

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Personally I agree. But then I think everyone should have a go at shooting ATR ships at some point while playing the game (or at the very least causing enough bedlam to summon them).

 

[Reggit]

I agree OP!
Don't fear the rebuy!
I'm not that amazing at PvP...but I enjoy it!
I wouldn't go into a fight without being willing to 'suck it up' (I usually won't leave a fight and, if it's a fair fight, allow the other cmdr to send me to the rebuy) If I win then it's a glorious feeling, and if I loose - there's no salt. (Usually a friend request too!)
I've done everything else so what am I gonna spend my billions on eh?
Honestly, some of the best PvP fights I've ever had, have ended with my death.
If I was trading, I probably wouldn't be in open, and usually I'm in small ships - this philosophy has served me well!
It's a game - let's not get too serious!

...Why fight meaningless Battles if they don't make any sense and you don't have to in the first place?...

Fun!!!

(Ps - I'm a lawful)

 

[Stigbob]

I don't mind exploding at all and quite enjoy PVP (I'm rubbish though) the reason I don't do it more often is convenience.

To stand a chance I have to refit my ship (or switch to my PVP ship) then I have to put away my Hotas and practice with mouse for a bit to get the feel back, then I need to go and find some PVP flying with mouse which I don't like. I've tried Hotas with mouse alongside so I can switch for rails/plasma but its too much desk clutter&wires and a pain.

I got jumped by the xeno-protectors yesterday, fired back a bit then high waked as it was hopeless. Considered transferring a PVP ship out there and decided it wasn't worth the hassle as it meant an hour and a half ship transfer time plus recombobulating my control config and shifting stuff around just to try to fight some guy who selects his targets by them not outfitted for PVP.

Nerf mouse and people like me might be much more into it.

 

[sewerratuk]

I don't mind exploding at all and quite enjoy PVP (I'm rubbish though) the reason I don't do it more often is convenience.

To stand a chance I have to refit my ship (or switch to my PVP ship) then I have to put away my Hotas and practice with mouse for a bit to get the feel back, then I need to go and find some PVP flying with mouse which I don't like. I've tried Hotas with mouse alongside so I can switch for rails/plasma but its too much desk clutter&wires and a pain.

I got jumped by the xeno-protectors yesterday, fired back a bit then high waked as it was hopeless. Considered transferring a PVP ship out there and decided it wasn't worth the hassle as it meant an hour and a half ship transfer time plus recombobulating my control config and shifting stuff around just to try to fight some guy who selects his targets by them not outfitted for PVP.

Nerf mouse and people like me might be much more into it.

Why not just stick with a HOTAS? If you're anything like me it won't matter too much whether K&M as a bit better control

 

[Stigbob]

Why not just stick with a HOTAS? If you're anything like me it won't matter too much whether K&M as a bit better control

Hotas is fine with gimbals or PVE fixed, but against people if you are both using fixed weps it really can't compete with the accuracy I find.

 

[Robert Maynard]

vInteresting point. In your opinion, losing the pixels doesn't actually make you more attuned to the prospect of loss. But what if you had gone in expecting to lose those pixels? What if losing them meant less to you? Would Elite actually be more fun?

To make losing those pixels mean less would require there to be less loss on destruction - most especially of the "stuff" that is destroyed that is not covered by the rebuy. Players seeking combat don't, I expect, carry around much "stuff" that is lost on destruction and consequently care less about that destruction. Those not seeking combat are therefore doing things that require "stuff" that can be lost on destruction - which probably results in those players caring more, rather than less, about destruction.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. This attitude right here. I think it would benefit everyone who plays Elite to approach it this way. If they did, perhaps Solo and PGs would be less attractive prospects, because you have less reason to be in those modes. I use Solo myself when I'm doing something both risky and time-intensive, because I want to guarantee my progress. If I didn't have that option though, I have a sneaking suspicion that Elite would be more... exciting.

While some may opine that that's "the right attitude", it's just that, an opinion. Others may opine that they can't be bothered to have their progress interrupted by the unwanted attentions of other players. YMMV.

---

I would add - the fact that the three game modes and mode shared galaxy state have formed part of the game design from the start, through development and release, means that the player-base that the game has attracted is not the same as the one that it may have attracted if the game had been Open only from the outset - however, if the game had been Open only from the outset it may not have achieved its Kickstarter target and may not have been developed at all.

 

[Layne Vakarian]

Well now it's not like we Commanders actually do die in a hail of fire though is it? We don't even 'respawn'. What we do is bail out and get teleported to the insurance office of the last station we visited.

That said I really don't think the aversion to open play exhibited by some is brought on by the prospect of ship loss. That can happen in any mode and at any time, especially if you're not paying attention in quite the way you should be, or you have not quite outfitted your ship appropriately to the task at hand. On this basis alone, and here CGs spring immediately to mind, losing your ship to another player (I hesitate to use the term griefer/ganker here because the RP reasons for the grief/gank are many, varied, and all valid), losing your ship in this way is no different at all to losing to an NPC. Albeit perhaps more likely.

On which basis I suspect that for the majority, and of course this can only be my opinion - I haven't asked the entire playerbase - for the majority of players that eschew open, the reason has nothing whatsoever to do with the prospect of ship loss and absolutely everything to do with not wanting, not in any way shape or form, to be part of someone else's content.

Sometimes this includes me. Sometimes it doesn't. However at no time, not ever, not even if we're flying in a wing together, am I there for your enjoyment. At best it is to enhance each other's. Never for yours alone though.

That's what the modes are there for. So that everyone has a choice: when to play, how to play, and with whom. Wantonly going and getting yourself blown up as if this is some kind of weird vaccination against disappointment or aversion to ship loss though?

Nah.

 

[Bigmaec]

Hotas is fine with gimbals or PVE fixed, but against people if you are both using fixed weps it really can't compete with the accuracy I find.

I have the same problem, I work around by using gimbal builds, imphammers and certain ships only.
For example I can hit quite well with PAs in a Dropship, but nothing in a FdL.
So I use gimbal multi FdLs or gimbal frag Mambas, or the FDS.

 

[sewerratuk]

Hotas is fine with gimbals or PVE fixed, but against people if you are both using fixed weps it really can't compete with the accuracy I find.

It is true but I just not that bothered to get top tier. Joystick curves give me enough fine control to compete when I get into random encounters

 

[Old Duck]

Do you agree?

No.. But FWIW, this is the only sentence out of your wall of text that I read.

 

[Layne Vakarian]

No.. But FWIW, this is the only sentence out of your wall of text that I read.

For that you get an actual LOL.

 

[Good Whiskey]

this is the only sentence out of your wall of text that I read.

I get that a lot. And you're right, this forum has far too many words as it is. I should probably have just posted a cat gif and the quote.