The Narrative Roundtable stream was actually really good.

[Chro]

I believe this series of stream (if it has a continuation ofc) can bring much more player attention to Elite's lore, as mentioned above it can be a great way for newer players to just know there is stuff out there to discover and interact with. But i do agree with most of you, there could be a better, more in-depth discussion on the lore and how the current events are somewhat connect to all of it, it would be nice to see different guests and their opinions and thoughts on the lore and what actually is canon and what isnt, also while it looked like the hosts just wanted to let the guests go wild and just discuss whatever they wanted it would be nice if it was more structured with the hosts actually bringing the topics to the table, this episode they were so quiet the poor fellas :/

But honestly, just having something different other than the usual weekly programming, and especially involving the lore which i love by the way, is a win win to me, also maybe having Drew Wagar as a guest on these streams would make it a joy to watch, just saying.

Stay safe out there CMDRs o7

 

[amigacooke]

I stuck with the stream to the point where they were struggling to get anyone to start the discussion because there was no structure at all.

Plus, you can't retcon lore. It's difficult to engage with a lore that can be changed when it suits.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Plus, you can't retcon lore. It's difficult to engage with a lore that can be changed when it suits.

Have they, within Elite Dangerous itself? I can't think of anything that's happened since 3300 that they now say didn't.

(Certainly there's a whole bunch of changes since FFE ... but nowhere near as many as between Elite and FE2, so that's a tradition by now)

 

[Rubbernuke]

Have they, within Elite Dangerous itself? I can't think of anything that's happened since 3300 that they now say didn't.

(Certainly there's a whole bunch of changes since FFE ... but nowhere near as many as between Elite and FE2, so that's a tradition by now)

There was a very big retcon on ED lore around 2.4 ish I believe with 'old' lore going in the bin (or shelved).

Its hard to know though if its story elements that will never be picked up on again though.

 

[drew]

Have they, within Elite Dangerous itself? I can't think of anything that's happened since 3300 that they now say didn't.

(Certainly there's a whole bunch of changes since FFE ... but nowhere near as many as between Elite and FE2, so that's a tradition by now)

Huge amounts of stuff. I'd do a feature on all the changes if it wasn't for an NDA that completely prevents it. That would be an interesting lore stream!

Rubbernuke is correct in the timing though.

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I'd do a feature on all the changes if it wasn't for an NDA that completely prevents it.

If you need NDA'd information to know that a retcon happened, is that actually a retcon?

From my point of view without access to privileged information, that's just "the writers changing their minds about what happens next" - sure, if you look hard enough you can see some foreshadowing for events which never actually happened, but then if you look hard enough and adjust your tinfoil hat right you can see foreshadowing for events which were never on the original plan either. If the only ways the post-2.4 story differs from the pre-2.4 story is in information which was never revealed to the players pre-2.4 in the first place ... that's not how I define a retcon.

 

[drew]

If the only ways the post-2.4 story differs from the pre-2.4 story is in information which was never revealed to the players pre-2.4 in the first place ... that's not how I define a retcon.

Information was revealed to players and then later removed.

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Information was revealed to players and then later removed.

Okay. Just so I can get my head around this, are you saying that:

1) Information about the plot or lore was revealed to non-NDA'd players through normal in-game channels (or other public methods).
2) This information was then removed from the game (and other public official sources) [1]
3) Despite the fact that both the information's former presence and current absence is a matter of publicly verifiable fact, and so presumably anyone paying sufficiently close attention to the public lore could have spotted it, your NDA prevents you from giving an example anyway.

If so, that's fine - there are lots of people not under NDA talking about these retcons too, so one of them can post the example.


[1] Certainly a lot of local news articles disappeared, some of them with interesting information in, but I've not seen anything since to contradict what they said. Of course, there were so many of them I didn't see most of them the first time either...

 

[Factabulous]

The only discrepancy I can think of in-game (not really a retcon, more a forgot-con) is the discovery of the Guardians. Which according to the tourist beacon was :

But in the codex they were found via Halsey's vision (which never happened in game, because they were found early):

Looking forward to seeing all the retcons people come up with!

 

[drew]

1) Information about the plot or lore was revealed to non-NDA'd players through normal in-game channels (or other public methods).
2) This information was then removed from the game (and other public official sources) [1]
3) Despite the fact that both the information's former presence and current absence is a matter of publicly verifiable fact, and so presumably anyone paying sufficiently close attention to the public lore could have spotted it, your NDA prevents you from giving an example anyway.

Yes.

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Ian Skippy]

The only discrepancy I can think of in-game (not really a retcon, more a forgot-con) is the discovery of the Guardians. Which according to the tourist beacon was :
View attachment 262268

But in the codex they were found via Halsey's vision (which never happened in game, because they were found early):
View attachment 262269
Looking forward to seeing all the retcons people come up with!

Which is basically an in game Easter egg for the dude who used the trailer to get info and an actual lore explanation officially. Fine with that.

Beyond that, either all these massive lore changes that happened for all to see will be listed, of those massive changes weren't massive. This "Pinky swear it happened except only I saw it and I can't tell due to secret NDA." is lame.

 

[zimms]

It's hard to know whether stuff has been retconned when it simply doesn't get mentioned ever again.

Are Oresrians/Klaxans still a thing? Humanity as a meat shield? The Club? Halsey's visions? All of that has been lore, in and out of game. Is it still?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It's hard to know whether stuff has been retconned when it simply doesn't get mentioned ever again.

Are Oresrians/Klaxans still a thing? Humanity as a meat shield? The Club? Halsey's visions? All of that has been lore, in and out of game. Is it still?

Oresrians/Klaxians never got an in-game mention in the first place, so far as I know, did they? And the humanity as shield explanation never entirely made sense as stated, right from the initial 1.0 map, so while I'm interested in what happens next on that I think the distinction between "it is canonically true" and "it is canonically true that some characters believe it to be true" has to be watched carefully [1].

The Club got their first (oblique, of course!) mention in Galnet just a few months ago, so they're definitely still about.

Halsey's visions ... well, Gan Romero had similar ones after 2.4, so that's probably still live, but definitely a slow moving plot. Player demand for at least most of Galnet to be related to in-game visible events probably makes it tough to do too much on that.


[1] Thargoid content is probably one of the most vulnerable bits to "our next expansion is two years behind schedule" in terms of having to rewrite the future story repeatedly. That can't be a fun constraint...

 

[zimms]

Oresrians/Klaxians never got an in-game mention in the first place, so far as I know, did they? [..]

I don't think so either, not explicitly at least. But if you say the Club is canon, wouldn't that also indirectly mean they are canon too? It's all a bit complicated.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Its not helped by how lore is disseminated in ED- its like writing a book and randomly gluing each page to a different surface in your house. Obviously lore is there for players to find, but its (up until recently but even then) been very hard to work out.

 

[BL1P]

The Club got their first (oblique, of course!) mention in Galnet just a few months ago, so they're definitely still about.

Did they ?

I have found no reference to "The Club" except externally. Maybe I missed the recent Galnet though ?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I don't think so either, not explicitly at least. But if you say the Club is canon, wouldn't that also indirectly mean they are canon too? It's all a bit complicated.

Well, the Club could exist and could believe in but be mistaken about the Oresrian/Klaxian distinction without the "hide behind the bubble" theory being true - at least, not in a literal sense ... there are metaphorical ways it could be true, of course.

Here's the article "mentioning" the Club.

Galnet News | Elite Dangerous Community Site

community.elitedangerous.com

(only in a "it's clearly them if you already know they exist" sense, but lore revealed through Galnet must have that limitation for them)

 

[BL1P]

Well, the Club could exist and could believe in but be mistaken about the Oresrian/Klaxian distinction without the "hide behind the bubble" theory being true - at least, not in a literal sense ... there are metaphorical ways it could be true, of course.

Here's the article "mentioning" the Club.

Galnet News | Elite Dangerous Community Site

community.elitedangerous.com

(only in a "it's clearly them if you already know they exist" sense, but lore revealed through Galnet must have that limitation for them)

Sorry but I dont see it.
It seems very akin to its Flat if you believe its Flat.
Though I can see why Frontier might introduce The Club into the game, with so many players saying they exist already. It would be a nice way to let the flat earthers be right for once

 

[drew]

Well, the Club could exist and could believe in but be mistaken about the Oresrian/Klaxian distinction without the "hide behind the bubble" theory being true - at least, not in a literal sense ... there are metaphorical ways it could be true, of course.

Here's the article "mentioning" the Club.

Galnet News | Elite Dangerous Community Site

community.elitedangerous.com

(only in a "it's clearly them if you already know they exist" sense, but lore revealed through Galnet must have that limitation for them)

This bit of the article is the key piece.

It will certainly fuel the conspiracy theory that he is a member of a covert group of powerful figures, who manipulate events to benefit the military/industrial complex.

The "Group of powerful figures who manipulate the military industrial complex" is precisely how DB described "The Club" to me prior to writing Premonition.

It's not a guarantee that it is the same "The Club", but I would say it was a pretty strong correlation.

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Sorry but I dont see it.
It seems very akin to its Flat if you believe its Flat.

It is definitely an issue with Elite Dangerous in-game storytelling.

Official books which have been approved as canonical say they exist (and the Oresrians too). Nothing in-universe says they exist except in the vaguest terms - you wouldn't necessarily conclude that this article and the beacons in Teorge refer to the same shadowy conspiracy, for example, or that either is the same as the Azimuth/Pharmasapien/Black Flight group being revealed recently [1] - but obviously any shadowy conspiracy worth talking about isn't going to have a public presence.

In more conventional games about conspiracies, well, fine, the purpose of the game story is to uncover the conspiracy so you find out more as you go along, and by the end (after a few days or weeks of play) you hopefully have a satisfying story.

In Elite Dangerous we're still barely out of the prologue as far as that goes, because of the necessarily slow pace of revealing things - and the Club, if they exist, are still so well hidden as to not really be dramatically necessary anyway.

I think this is why stories like Enclave or the NMLA arc - or on the mystery side, UAs or Azimuth - work better: you might not necessarily know all the consequences of your actions in advance, but at least you can make a logical guess at the short- and medium- term ones, and you get to see things change as a result.


[1] I don't think there's any actual reason - speaking solely about lore revealed in-game, not through official fiction - that the Azimuth/Black Flight conspiracy, the Core Dynamics/Vincent/Jupiter one, and the Dynasty/Exodus one couldn't all have been different groups.

I'm not a particular fan of "grand conspiracy" stories and I think they work very badly within ED ("blaze your own trail but they all support the Club in the end") so a broader set of secretive groups each with their own agenda and at best partial knowledge of each other is probably more fun anyway.