The New AI is Too Good! I'm back in an Cobra After Loosing Python 3 Times in 3 Days!

[EddyRockSteady]

Just out of curiosity, could you share you 'Conda build?

Here we go:

Spoiler

All shield boosters in utility slots not shown in pic

Not worried about Bulkhead upgrades atm due to Powerplant armour issues but will get them once PP armour fixed.

 

[ruksak]

Indeed, amazing AI. I cannot see much difference here (AI vs HUMAN) in close combat, especially by DANGEROUS and ELITE ranks. Yesterday I interdicted Courrier and I did maximum I can (at the moment as a novice with limited combat skills) to write him off (even with flight assist off to stay behind him at all time). After 10+ minutes in my Diamond Back, I realised, he was too good.... Lucky escpace in last minute (scary ride with oxygen depletion procedure) in my DK2 to the closest outpost where no repair was available, so I decided to risk the starpoint which was too far, but I made it (30 seconds left) - invested in better life support finally ... It was the best moment I had in ED with DK2!! So immersive.

 

[Andromalius]

Maion issue I'd see with "too good" AI is that it will just wipe some kind of ships from the space lanes. Nobody is going to run a Lakon trader if you can't run away, as these can't really defend themselves against a real opponent. If you make running impossible with these ships, you'll screw all the newcomers while the oldtimers will have enjoyed the days of unshielded T9s, there will be a big gap.
And as a related thing, you get interdicted way too much in supposedly secure systems. Even Powers capital systems are full of interdictions, even moreso than in more remote places. It feels like there would be one carjack attempt every 30 mn in Picaddilly square.

 

[Shaamaan]

Maion issue I'd see with "too good" AI is that it will just wipe some kind of ships from the space lanes. Nobody is going to run a Lakon trader if you can't run away, as these can't really defend themselves against a real opponent. If you make running impossible with these ships, you'll screw all the newcomers while the oldtimers will have enjoyed the days of unshielded T9s, there will be a big gap.
And as a related thing, you get interdicted way too much in supposedly secure systems. Even Powers capital systems are full of interdictions, even moreso than in more remote places. It feels like there would be one carjack attempt every 30 mn in Picaddilly square.

This is something about the "meta-AI", which is sadly as stupid as it has always been. :-/

I think having encounters with AIs where a T9 is toast (or can be toast - you can still outfit it for survivability... alternatively, it's another reason to add NPC wing-men for players ASAP) on it's own is fine - it's the system security that's an issue. As for unshielded trading - well, that's a whole other can of worms. Personally, I never did it, never will, and the fact that it was possible at all was a sign of something else entirely and probably shouldn't be used as an argument.

But on the other hand, one has to remember how grind-tastic this game is, and the new AI might increase the grind. Allow me to explain - I've made my initial small fortune bounty hunting in 1.0 in my Sidewinder. This netted me a Cobra, fit for trading rares (it wasn't ideal, as it was missing a lot of A-grade components, but it was a start). If a new player will need to limit their bounty hunting to lesser opponents with lesser rewards, then this will effectively increase the already long grind!

 

[_Azzo_]

Nerf? No way! I'm just getting started on the high ranks! Loads more to come!

I was registered on the forum, to send all my thanks for Sarah.
New AI it's something! The remarkable behavior of ships.
Furthermore it would be desirable to have an elite rank ships were even more dangerous than it is now.
Suppose that the number will be less, but each encounter with NPC (Elite) will be more difficult.

 

[Huros]

Wait till SJA unleashes the Thargoid AI.

 

[The Rifter]

Had a Phyton winged with two Dropships in a RES yesterday. Wow, that fight saved the day for me.

 

[DJ]

LOL

The Ai barely even uses chaff. They never run properly and they always use mixed weapons. They are a joke!

I've had AI cripple one of my gimball loadouts with chaff.

 

[DJ]

So pirates will behave a bit different to police in combat.

I can't wait to see this come to fruition!

 

[Julissa Silver]

You should never make a game with the goal of the average person being able to play it well. You should always make them so that the average person aspires to play it well. That's how "Challenge" is born.

Only if you want the game to be a long-term commercial flop. That anyone believes we should dismiss average players is a shocking, awful thought. The game can include features that the 'average' gamer might struggle to deal with or, in your terms 'aspire' to playing, but if the entire game is something that the MAJORITY OF PLAYERS can't play, but can only aspire to playing, then you will condemn this game to the refuse pit of history as an afterthought.

STOP pushing the AI harder until the rest of the game can compensate for it. It's great to showcase harder and harder AI and it's lovely that a tiny minority of very vocal people will get to enjoy extreme difficulty, but if you push away the average person you push away the base of the pyramid, you push away too much support for the game and you end up with a few thousand very loud, very demanding people that do nothing to further the game. I'm sure SJA must feel very proud of the constant improvements, but she ABSOLUTELY MUST be kept aware that she can't keep pushing the curve further and further away from new or 'average' players without doing severe damage to the long-term potential of the game. I have to keep saying this because the very loud and very 'elite' players demands will ruin this game for the majority.

Tl;dr: DO NOT push the game's AI harder overall without providing better methods of choice of experience for *ALL* players. Anyone suggesting otherwise is harmful to the game.

 

[CMDR Derrida]

Yeah, I think we're all finding this to an extent. Typical example, me interdicted in my FDL by lone npc python: my wing mates in super-cruise are asking me, hey, your shields are looking a bit low, need some help? Want us to drop in? No, I say, I'm fine, I say, will just be a minute, I say as I pop my last shield cell and prepare to jump out. Did you kill him? they ask. Sure, I say, so where are we headed next?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Tl;dr: DO NOT push the game's AI harder overall without providing better methods of choice of experience for *ALL* players. Anyone suggesting otherwise is harmful to the game.

I have not played 1.3.7 so maybe this is how it is, maybe it isnt, but hypothetically would you agree that having harder ai - without police protection is ok in anarchy systems where as better police protection in hi sec space making it safer but with less profitable margins, thus allowing the combat averse player the ability to choose where they fly would be a fair method of providing for those who want a harder game and those who want an easier game?

or are you suggesting that the ai should not be too strong in all systems, and combat averse players should be able to fly anywhere?

 

[PhanttoM]

Tl;dr: DO NOT push the game's AI harder overall without providing better methods of choice of experience for *ALL* players.

There already are — Combat rank and ship types of AI.
If someone is not good at combat, they should NOT be attacking Dangerous enemies that have larger ships than themselves, nor should they go a "High Intensity" site.


How much is needed? A big MMORPG exclamation mark saying:
"THIS ENEMY IS FOR BEGINNERS"
"THIS ENEMY IS FOR HIGHLY SKILLED PLAYERS"

 

[Lunchmoney]

LOL

The Ai barely even uses chaff. They never run properly and they always use mixed weapons. They are a joke!

I've had AI cripple one of my gimball loadouts with chaff.

Likewise. When the AI drops chaff I put 4 pips to SYS and back off for 30 seconds.

 

[Sarah Jane Avory]

Only if you want the game to be a long-term commercial flop. That anyone believes we should dismiss average players is a shocking, awful thought. The game can include features that the 'average' gamer might struggle to deal with or, in your terms 'aspire' to playing, but if the entire game is something that the MAJORITY OF PLAYERS can't play, but can only aspire to playing, then you will condemn this game to the refuse pit of history as an afterthought.

STOP pushing the AI harder until the rest of the game can compensate for it. It's great to showcase harder and harder AI and it's lovely that a tiny minority of very vocal people will get to enjoy extreme difficulty, but if you push away the average person you push away the base of the pyramid, you push away too much support for the game and you end up with a few thousand very loud, very demanding people that do nothing to further the game. I'm sure SJA must feel very proud of the constant improvements, but she ABSOLUTELY MUST be kept aware that she can't keep pushing the curve further and further away from new or 'average' players without doing severe damage to the long-term potential of the game. I have to keep saying this because the very loud and very 'elite' players demands will ruin this game for the majority.

Tl;dr: DO NOT push the game's AI harder overall without providing better methods of choice of experience for *ALL* players. Anyone suggesting otherwise is harmful to the game.

On my build here at work I've recently been making the lower ranks easier, and will drop them even more before I'm done. It's only the top ranks that are getting a boost. A lot of the work is plugging all the gaping holes in the AI logic that makes it so exploitable (such as flying in reverse and picking off AI ships easy-peasy). So next major update will see a much broader spread of AI abilities and tactics. Something for everyone is my plan.

 

[mbar]

Aint it fantastic. I for one am loving a challenge. Do the cobra again. you wont go bigger after that. smaller ships are better.

After being in larger ships for a while, being back in a cobra is a fun! Fight all you want and if you get in trouble you can out boost anything else.

 

[tarks382]

I really like the AI difficulty. The only thing wrong is that NPC Cobras think they can out-turn my Vulture when they can't and just give me their top as a really big target. But otherwise the AI is rather intelligent once it starts shooting you. Before the pirates start shooting you the AI is actually pretty stupid, sitting still to scan you (while you scan them) and then turning away at a right angle, perfect to start shooting then if they have a bounty.

Yesterday I got my first Anaconda assassination mission with the new AI (previous few were Pythons, some in small wings) and it was my favorite fight so far. I don't think I've been that scared in combat vs NPCs since a Dropship interdicted my starting Sidewinder (that was a 45 minute fight that I eventually won because old AI and bad Dropship maneuverability). The conda got me down to 68% hull before I finished him off.

I like that high rank NPCs use Chaff now. I even switched my gimballed pulse lasers to fixed because of this, and to improve my piloting skill. I haven't been ganged up on in a CZ like some of the above people have, guess they like to go after large ships more than small ones?

I used to be scared stiff of Anacondas, and avoided them like the plague. But in my concerted attempt to rank up (mainly through missions against pirates - it legitimises the violence), of course I've had to take them on. Now I love them! Big slow things (which their AI can't mitigate) that cannons can REALLY get their teeth into. And they blow up lovely!

Whilst on the subject of AI; yes the new modules are clever and the fight is often long and debiitating. One thing I've noticed is how tenaceous they are, so when I'm ailing - I run (the Courier can outrun everything). And they follow. So I run and I run until my SHIELDS ARE RECHARGED. Yes they'll follow you all the way - until you're ready to turn on them again. Showtime!

 

[Arry]

On my build here at work I've recently been making the lower ranks easier, and will drop them even more before I'm done. It's only the top ranks that are getting a boost. A lot of the work is plugging all the gaping holes in the AI logic that makes it so exploitable (such as flying in reverse and picking off AI ships easy-peasy). So next major update will see a much broader spread of AI abilities and tactics. Something for everyone is my plan.

Sarah, flying backwards is a combat option, offered within the game and now the only option for some ships to take out the likes of the new Eagles. I have to say, that fighting Eagles has really become a pain, for anything over the size of a Viper. To the point, I have to ask myself, are they worth the effort, especially if you take into account the reward, since PP is only 400Cr. Even the low ranked Eagles, are stripping shields and out manoeuvring larger ships, even the Cobras. Making reversing and tanking the only real option. Yes, once an Eagle falls under the gun sites, it is dead, but getting behind them is almost impossible. IMHO.

 

[Mephane]

On my build here at work I've recently been making the lower ranks easier, and will drop them even more before I'm done. It's only the top ranks that are getting a boost. A lot of the work is plugging all the gaping holes in the AI logic that makes it so exploitable (such as flying in reverse and picking off AI ships easy-peasy). So next major update will see a much broader spread of AI abilities and tactics. Something for everyone is my plan.

Is it within your domain to also adjust bounties, combat bonds and mission payments correspondingly to the changes in AI difficulty? Because while these changes sound fantastic, I fear they could lead to many players avoiding the higest ranks of NPCs (let's say Dangerous and higher) because the effort isn't worth the payout when in the same time, with much less risks, multiple easier NPCs could be destroyed.

To be perfectly clear: avoiding an Elite NPC because you don't expect your chances very good is a totally legit decision. But doing so because you expect the payout to be less than the repair bill and/or the opportunity cost of not spending that same amount of time, ammunition etc. on a few weaklings which, together, reward you just as well (or badly) - that is something I would rather not like to see. To the contrary, once a player is sufficiently practiced and equipped, they should relish the moment they happen to meet, for example, Elite NPC flying an FDL - a good, challenging fight ahead and a great bounty to make it worthwhile.

 

[Crash1099]

Sarah, flying backwards is a combat option, offered within the game and now the only option for some ships to take out the likes of the new Eagles. I have to say, that fighting Eagles has really become a pain, for anything over the size of a Viper. To the point, I have to ask myself, are they worth the effort, especially if you take into account the reward, since PP is only 400Cr. Even the low ranked Eagles, are stripping shields and out manoeuvring larger ships, even the Cobras. Making reversing and tanking the only real option. Yes, once an Eagle falls under the gun sites, it is dead, but getting behind them is almost impossible. IMHO.

I love turrets in my python. Keeps the eagles busy. I went back to the rail gun because of how fast it damages big ships.