the new engineer system for dummies

[prd]

So in a nutshell... Assuming I'm not a min-maxer looking for crazy rolls, but just an average guy wanting some upgrades...

In the current system, I go to engineer that I have already unlocked up to g3 or g4, do 1-2 rolls per module for whatever grade I can get, and I'm done.
It's currently doable with very few mats that I get by doing missions or generally playing the game without grinding.

In the new system instead, since I cannot skip to the best grade anymore... I'm gonna have to do how many rolls for each and every module? I'm gonna need how many orders of magnitude more items?
Seems designed to just push average people out. (Not to mention pvp, but that was already made an exclusive club with the current implementation.)

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Very shortly, people will be along to tell you that you are wrong. Maybe they are right.

Personally, though, I'm entirely with you on this.

Currently if I want a new Grade 5 FSD for a new ship, I head along to an Engineer and do one or two rolls and then leave happy.

I won't be able to do that any more. I said this a month or two back, people told me to wait and see...because the material trader would make it all ok. However at current test levels, the material trader needs 1296 G1 materials for 1 G5 material. Not a lot of help really.

But Frontier insist it's for the long term betterment of the game, in which case I guess it doesn't matter what players who do this actually want. Game comes first, right?

 

[Vardaugas]

You will have to start collecting this or that material while playing to get some stock of a variety. We now have more material storage, so that capacity is expected to be used.

From there engineering will be you going to the engineer, doing some rolls with the materials you have, maybe acquire an experimental effect and then pin the blueprint. Now you can keep playing normally, or head to a material trader to gather materials you need for more rolls and do those at the local shop. Then you can keep rolling whenever you like, wherever you like, without the need to go back to the engineer unless you want to pick up a new blueprint or experimental effect.

The gameplay changed. So, of course, you won't be able to do things as you used to.

 

[WR3ND]

So basically we keep "leveling up" our modules. I prefer it over the former "craft and trash" system, at least, but then I wouldn't even use that. Instead, I would "level up" the Engineers' rep selling exploration data to them or whatever alternative there was.

So while I think this is a bit better than the craft and trash game mechanic, it isn't much of an improvement for me and my progression with the Engineers, it seems. 1000+ to 1 material trading seems pretty silly to the point that no one would even bother with it and would just go out and get what they want the "old fashion" way, making the trader pretty much worthless in the game, unless I'm missing something.

By the way, going wherever I want with a blueprint is a "non-feature" for me. Traveling the galaxy is easy; probably too easy, actually. What is it, like 10 to 15 minutes to get across the bubble? Some of you guys... [haha] Makes me think of yuppies going "camping" in a swamp 50 miles from anywhere, worrying about which kind of bug repellent to take along with them.

 

[Knightshark]

Very shortly, people will be along to tell you that you are wrong. Maybe they are right.

Personally, though, I'm entirely with you on this.

Currently if I want a new Grade 5 FSD for a new ship, I head along to an Engineer and do one or two rolls and then leave happy.

I won't be able to do that any more. I said this a month or two back, people told me to wait and see...because the material trader would make it all ok. However at current test levels, the material trader needs 1296 G1 materials for 1 G5 material. Not a lot of help really.

But Frontier insist it's for the long term betterment of the game, in which case I guess it doesn't matter what players who do this actually want. Game comes first, right?

But what do they mean by that i wonder? It's not for the current playerbase but for new players? How many new players are they expecting? And why make a change that is a (massive for some!) downgrade for current players that are invested in the game (and used to buy many paintjobs like me)?

 

[Dutchman141]

Very shortly, people will be along to tell you that you are wrong. Maybe they are right.

Personally, though, I'm entirely with you on this.

Currently if I want a new Grade 5 FSD for a new ship, I head along to an Engineer and do one or two rolls and then leave happy.

I won't be able to do that any more. I said this a month or two back, people told me to wait and see...because the material trader would make it all ok. However at current test levels, the material trader needs 1296 G1 materials for 1 G5 material. Not a lot of help really.

But Frontier insist it's for the long term betterment of the game, in which case I guess it doesn't matter what players who do this actually want. Game comes first, right?

Exactly my thoughts.
The grind will just shift from gathering materials for a couple grade 5 rolls to gathering a lot more materials for a couple grade 5 rolls.
I can't see any longterm improvement here but then again I'm not a game developer.

 

[bladebss]

Yea its lunacy! I just cant understand how this is suposed to be better.

It cut out variation to just what special you have. We have gone from a tree to a stump.

Supposed to be an on going thing but you can reach the end and be done.. all grade 5 all maxed to the end.. no room for improvement.. so now what?
At least in the live build i can get good enogh and come back for better if i find more mats as i play and i can always try for more even after that thanx to rng! Every one hates it but it beats liniar grind.
Whats more fun
Gambling? Or paying?

 

[Knightshark]

Exactly my thoughts.
The grind will just shift from gathering materials for a couple grade 5 rolls to gathering a lot more materials for a couple grade 5 rolls.
I can't see any longterm improvement here but then again I'm not a game developer.

Which essentially means way more mess managing the list with needed materials.

 

[Henri]

well as requested less RNG, less variation.
in order to compensate no more rep requirement but you level up each type of equipment separately.

 

[Knightshark]

well as requested less RNG, less variation.
in order to compensate no more rep requirement but you level up each type of equipment separately.

Sure because replacing an element players dislike (RNG) with another the dislike (grind) makes perfect sense.

 

[Marklar_]

More rolls will be needed, but I think that people may be underestimating how much easier it will be to get those rolls. The inventory increase and materials broker will make it much easier to stock up on materials, so I'm skeptical that it's going to be as grindy as some people are assuming.

I'm stoked about the changes to special effects, that has been my biggest complaint with engineering.

 

[Dutchman141]

Which essentially means way more mess managing the list with needed materials.

Exactly.
Right now I only need small number of three materials for a grade 5 fsd.
The new system forces me to gather, I don't know, eight or ten different materials for a grade 5 fsd?

Yup much better in the longterm........

Ugh.

 

[Knightshark]

Exactly.
Right now I only need small number of three materials for a grade 5 fsd.
The new system forces me to gather, I don't know, eight or ten different materials for a grade 5 fsd?

Yup much better in the longterm........

Ugh.

I guess they think "better in the longterm" translates for FD to "it takes longer".

 

[Faybs]

We're only going to know for certain in a couple of days when beta hits, which is the reason I and a few others are completely against using fish for engineering mats in the beta - everyone seems to be assuming the recipes are going to stay the same, which is not a given. I plan on doing two tests in particular: buying a new chieftain and G5'ing all its modules, and seeing how long it takes to generate, from scratch, DD5 thrusters that are better than my 200+ roll demigod tier ones (137% multiplier). Since we won't have Dav's hope for CIF any more, I won't count time but number of rolls. I'll probably just do a whole lot of station rescue missions, last time I did those CIF was fairly easy to come by.

 

[Susanna]

More rolls will be needed, but I think that people may be underestimating how much easier it will be to get those rolls. The inventory increase and materials broker will make it much easier to stock up on materials, so I'm skeptical that it's going to be as grindy as some people are assuming.

I'm stoked about the changes to special effects, that has been my biggest complaint with engineering.

I'm inclined to agree for now... We'll see! People will be collecting grade 3 and 4 mats and then using the broker to trade in for grade 5... And it won't take a thousand plus to do so.

 

[Knightshark]

I'm inclined to agree for now... We'll see! People will be collecting grade 3 and 4 mats and then using the broker to trade in for grade 5... And it won't take a thousand plus to do so.

Eventually players will figure out which g3/4 mats are easies to get in each category and these will be the mats everyone will be farming.

 

[Drelthar]

All they need to do is add a button to roll a grade five for a module, which uses up all the materials it would, for rolling G1, then G2, then G3, then G4, then G5.

Then you can just spend all the materials in one go to get to the grade you wanted to do for that module (this assumes you have the rep)

Then, you don't have to spam click the generate button (which also has a confirmation, so two clicks each time) to get through all the grades top G5.


This one button would help with this alot.

Unfortunately, it would also expose just how many more materials you need in the new system.

So... probly won't happen.

 

[Drelthar]

Whats more fun
Gambling? Or paying?

Paying, for me. Gambling can be really unhealthy.

 

[WR3ND]

Eventually players will figure out which g3/4 mats are easies to get in each category and these will be the mats everyone will be farming.

Meta grinders will be meta grinders. I'm mostly concerned about gameplay and progression for the rest of us.

 

[Funny]

Welp, since my thread go buried, here’s some math for ya’ll:

Grade 5 costs 1x of the rarest mat.
Grade 4 is 3x of the next least rare mat, so 1x of the rarest mat assuming the same 3:1 conversion applies.
Grade 4 is 1/3rd of the rarest mat
Grade 3 is 1/9th...
Grade 2 when continuing the trend and ignoring the one less material 1/27th
Grade 1 1/81st
The sum of this pattern trends to 2.5, though is somewhat of a rough estimate (give or take 0.1)
So using the broker and solely the rarest mats, you’ll end up having to pay roughly 2.5x a current grade 5 mod to get grade 5 rolled once.

By far the largest problem with the current system is that due to the rng in practice this can be much, much higher than portrayed here. They really have to ensure that the 3x rolls average has no massive variation else they risk a massive backlash (which they would deserve tbh).
My second biggest gripe would be that the costs are artificially spread out across many different mats, making it hard to make proper estimates just from in-game info and thus adding to the perceived grind (in this case, I guess that term is somehwt justified - though don’t get me wrong, adding to players’ negative emotions is something you absolutely want to avoid as a developer).

Anyway, I hope this helps somewhat.