What?
The math is right. You don't understand how this works. The new system is WAY worse. You won't find all those materials and data by mistake. You will have to go and hunt them down. Do you even play this game?
the new engineer system for dummies
- Thread starter prd
- Start date
What?
The math is right. You don't understand how this works. The new system is WAY worse. You won't find all those materials and data by mistake. You will have to go and hunt them down. Do you even play this game?
I'm pretty sure what you said won't work for 90% of the things you need to collect. In fact, I know it won't. You site a case where it happens to work and claim it does for everything. In most cases, you have to go out of your way to find the necessary materials. They don't just fall in your lap while collecting the G5 stuff. If they do you must not be very good at collecting G5 materials since there are ways to get G5 materials directly without collecting tons of other things (except for wake scans).
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I see grind being mentioned a lot, completely missing the point that Sandro made (and felt quite passionately about) in yesterdays live stream.
You grind if you want to, but this commanders not for grinding.
You grind if you want to, but this commanders not for grinding.
If you have mats for 8 G5 rolls, as in your example: just keep enough for 5 rolls, and convert the rest of them downwards using the material and data brokers (on the live stream: 3 lower grade mats for 1 higher grade). Then you have more than enough to fully upgrade through ranks 1-4, AND after that fully max the grade 5.
It's *not* the number of materials that's an issue, it's the number of clicks and associated inconvenience.
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People are mentioning the extra grind a lot because there is a lot of extra grind with the new system. Crazy how that works...
And, if you want to use engineering (which many people do) then they will have to grind a LOT more to get similar results to what they can easily achieve in the current system. The new system penalizes the people who used engineering casually in favor of the people who spent tons of time engineering modules to get max values on everything. IT IS SIMPLE MATH.
It is not an even trade going down. You don't get tons of lower level stuff for a G5. They said so on stream. There is a LOSS associated with the trading. Also, you can't trade any material for any other material. You can only trade in the same family of materials. So it probably doesn't even work for all upgrades.
So I counter your "it should work" assertion with "prove to me it works" cause on paper it doesn't seem to work to me. And in fact, I think the high material and data requirements are exactly the problems because they all take time to acquire by whatever means.
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I think you should re-listen to Sandro on the point of Engineers, a position he has stuck to consistantly since it was released. If you turn it into a grind thats up to you, I have a number of ships from Asp, Pythons, Vultures, etc etc all engineered. Never grinded.
What you just said makes no sense. You grinded by gathering all the stuff necessary for the upgrades you performed. Just because you don't think of it as a grind doesn't mean it isn't a grind. It still takes time no matter how you "FEEL" about the process. Just because you took longer to upgrade things instead of going to get all the materials at one time, doesn't mean the system isn't dumb, or a grind.
^This. Simply saying ‘Material Trader’ does not magically give you all the things you need. You’ve got to actually find them, go there, then try and work out what trades to make so that you have all the materials for all the blueprints for all the modules you want to upgrade.
Take a look at this analysis of how much stuff you need to fully mod an Anaconda:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ding-an-Anaconda-with-the-New-Engineer-Design
Now think about how you will actually go about making sure you end up with the right amount of everything. On the plus side, you’ll be Elite at spreadsheets by the time you’re done...
I have no objection to engineering taking time. I’ve done plenty of it myself. But Sandro stated explicitly at the outset that one of the three big problems they were trying to address was that the current system took “too long”. The new system will be worse for casuals, and only better for god-rollers.
I really didnt have to go out of my way to look for those materials, a bit here a bit there whilst doing other things. Wasnt really a grind in the typical sense, where you go out single minded to pump a game mechanic over and over again until you meet a required set of criteria.
The "loss" is that if you convert upwards, you need 6 for 1. When you convert downwards, you get 3 for 1. Lower rank modules *always* require mats in the same category, but lower grade (just check on engineer web pages).
So, if you have 8 G5 mats: keep 5, convert 3 downwards. you now have 9 G4 mats, for the same upgrade at lower rank.
Keep 5 for rolling, convert rest downwards: 12 G3 mats.
Rinse and repeat as necessary.
Look. Yes I do play and have been since gamma/beta. Most of the materials you will find as you find your G5 mats. How difficult is it for you to understand this basic idea. I will not need to look specifically for G1 - G4 mats, I will just go for the G5 and I will get most of the others anyway, and odd edge case I can trade some up. It's is not going to be any different or it could be even easier then what we have now.
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Well there's levels of 'game developers'... We have FDev and then we have the professionals... *chuckle*
Very shortly, people will be along to tell you that you are wrong. Maybe they are right.
Personally, though, I'm entirely with you on this.
Currently if I want a new Grade 5 FSD for a new ship, I head along to an Engineer and do one or two rolls and then leave happy.
I won't be able to do that any more. I said this a month or two back, people told me to wait and see...because the material trader would make it all ok. However at current test levels, the material trader needs 1296 G1 materials for 1 G5 material. Not a lot of help really.
But Frontier insist it's for the long term betterment of the game, in which case I guess it doesn't matter what players who do this actually want. Game comes first, right?
Then you shouldn't have criticized the RNG nature of the current system. Engineers are being changed because people didn't like them, not out of spite and the mechanic is being changed into the exact opposite of what it is now.
You are starting to take things really personally, lately. Are you sure you don't need a break?
Deleted member 38366
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Previously, the 3x roll per Grade was guaranteed and once done per Engineer, not longer needed. You were then at Grade 5.
The livestream looked like RNG now decides how much progression you get within the Grades. So upto 6 rolls to achieve the next needed Grade seem possible (only takes a few "Mini-Progressions" like yesterday) ?
If I'm right, the amount of rolls required to attain a G5 Mod at an already unlocked Engineer will increase dramatically.
Current : 1-4 Rolls on G5 and you can expect something reasonably good
Future : 3-6 rolls for each Grade (4 x 4 = 16, assuming average luck and only one "Mini-Progression" roll), the 4-6 to give your G5 rolls a solid finish and utilize the benefits of the new System. That's >20 for a single Module.
Might be wrong about this or overlooked something in the LiveStream, but I forsee a huge Materials Grind coming upon us. The Materials Traders will very rapidly become highly sought after hotspots in the Galaxy.
(as the ways to attain the Materials fundamentally remained untouched, you'll need to find either the Target Material or alot of it's smaller brothers aimed to exchange at some 5:1 ratio; the broad array of Mats needed will mean otherwise found "commonly sufficient from daily gameplay" Materials will rapidly become scarse as well)
The livestream looked like RNG now decides how much progression you get within the Grades. So upto 6 rolls to achieve the next needed Grade seem possible (only takes a few "Mini-Progressions" like yesterday) ?
If I'm right, the amount of rolls required to attain a G5 Mod at an already unlocked Engineer will increase dramatically.
Current : 1-4 Rolls on G5 and you can expect something reasonably good
Future : 3-6 rolls for each Grade (4 x 4 = 16, assuming average luck and only one "Mini-Progression" roll), the 4-6 to give your G5 rolls a solid finish and utilize the benefits of the new System. That's >20 for a single Module.
Might be wrong about this or overlooked something in the LiveStream, but I forsee a huge Materials Grind coming upon us. The Materials Traders will very rapidly become highly sought after hotspots in the Galaxy.
(as the ways to attain the Materials fundamentally remained untouched, you'll need to find either the Target Material or alot of it's smaller brothers aimed to exchange at some 5:1 ratio; the broad array of Mats needed will mean otherwise found "commonly sufficient from daily gameplay" Materials will rapidly become scarse as well)
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I can already tell you that the material trader is not going to be of much help with a 6 to 1 conversion rate.
Most games work with 2 to 1 or 3 to 1. But because it's ED the design team has to add an extra layer of grindiness.
Mat traders will be used in the following way : 3 to 1 downward. In may case, it'll be faster to collect 1 unit of tier 4 or 5 materials
than 3 of the lower grade and will save time with the mind bogglingly stupid forced upgrade path Sandro chose.
Sad part is that their mind is set one it, so I'm better of crafting a bunch of G5's modules and super cool rails instead of playing the Beta.
Our feedback is not really needed anyway, so... what's the harm, right ?
FDev design moto seems to be "If RNG does not succeed, use Grind instead"
Jeez. Instead of focusing on things like having several way of collecting each data/material and replacing the stupid Wake scanning and SS farming
by some actually engaging gameplay. I know, crazy thoughts.
This mess sits squarly on Sandro's lap.
ProTip : If a gameplay loop is fun, players will engage in it without force. I know, it sounds crazy.
Most games work with 2 to 1 or 3 to 1. But because it's ED the design team has to add an extra layer of grindiness.
Mat traders will be used in the following way : 3 to 1 downward. In may case, it'll be faster to collect 1 unit of tier 4 or 5 materials
than 3 of the lower grade and will save time with the mind bogglingly stupid forced upgrade path Sandro chose.
Sad part is that their mind is set one it, so I'm better of crafting a bunch of G5's modules and super cool rails instead of playing the Beta.
Our feedback is not really needed anyway, so... what's the harm, right ?
FDev design moto seems to be "If RNG does not succeed, use Grind instead"
Jeez. Instead of focusing on things like having several way of collecting each data/material and replacing the stupid Wake scanning and SS farming
by some actually engaging gameplay. I know, crazy thoughts.
This mess sits squarly on Sandro's lap.
ProTip : If a gameplay loop is fun, players will engage in it without force. I know, it sounds crazy.
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The only important question is will getting proper upgrades NOT be a grind ANYMORE. Or have they swapped just grind wirth random result for grind with steady imprved result. but thsi amy mena one might ened still a lot rolls to achieve what sioemoen else cna with just a few. Still doesn't sounds like Engineering and more like science. Why rolls at all? Why not soem sliders WE can choose, (like true engineering tuning wise) and then the engineers tells us what materials he needs in which quantity? Because that would be too realsitic? or because the lead designer is just havingh bad gambling habits and likes gambling too much to take it off the game?
I tell youw hat someone should FORCE every designer of that system to legit play and achieve a cutter or courvette from sidey up to max engineering with at elats 4hours per day. THEN they have a proper idea what it takes to make such a task. I am sure this would change many of the atricious unfun repetetive mindless tasks.
given how many components a ship has this will still be a large task to engineer them. But important is the possible wayS to get materials. if ther eis again just 1 or 2 boring ways the game is again forcing people towards specific playstyles which counters the "blaze your own trail" idea.
I tell youw hat someone should FORCE every designer of that system to legit play and achieve a cutter or courvette from sidey up to max engineering with at elats 4hours per day. THEN they have a proper idea what it takes to make such a task. I am sure this would change many of the atricious unfun repetetive mindless tasks.
given how many components a ship has this will still be a large task to engineer them. But important is the possible wayS to get materials. if ther eis again just 1 or 2 boring ways the game is again forcing people towards specific playstyles which counters the "blaze your own trail" idea.
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Very shortly, people will be along to tell you that you are wrong. Maybe they are right.
Personally, though, I'm entirely with you on this.
Currently if I want a new Grade 5 FSD for a new ship, I head along to an Engineer and do one or two rolls and then leave happy.
I won't be able to do that any more. I said this a month or two back, people told me to wait and see...because the material trader would make it all ok. However at current test levels, the material trader needs 1296 G1 materials for 1 G5 material. Not a lot of help really.
But Frontier insist it's for the long term betterment of the game, in which case I guess it doesn't matter what players who do this actually want. Game comes first, right?
I have to admit that the Frontier Smoke an Mirrors PR to convince players that going through 1-5 Grade levels is Faster and Better,
than going straight to a Engineer already unlocked to G5, is less Grind Time and Better.
On this point I can only say: The Dark Side of the Force is Strong for Devs, Like EA, Egosoft, and Now FD.
Who refuse to listen to their player base, because they have "Decided", and can not see their ego for the trees, much less admit a mistake.
The Entire Problem in Elite, is the Huge amount of Time Sink Grind in the Game.
I want FD to think, QUICKSAND !, and grab a Rope, before it all goes under.
The fact that you cannot latch a grade level for subsequent items means, to a first order, you will need to do (number of rolls) x (number of items) _times_ more rolls than the current system. Assuming on average same number of mats per roll as currently.
The question is then how much faster can you get the materials needed than currently.
Would be helpful if FD published the analysis they did on the time to engineer a ship, when making the design decision on this very big change.
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