the new engineer system for dummies

[ElmerBacon]

I think a potential way out to the current stand off between supporters of the current system and the new one would be to apply a much more pronounced aspect of diminishing return when advancing your modules from G1 to max G5.

For instance, under the new proposed system you can consider that there are (nearly) fixed number of, let's assume, ~20 discreet steps of progressions (from 1.0 to 1.4, to 2.0 to 2.4, etc.. to 5.4) that you have to go through to attain the max level for a given module, each of which requiring a roll and appropriate mats.

Now let's assume that in the old system, if you do 3 to 4 G5 roll you can expect to end up on average with a module that's maybe about 80% of the absolute maximum (that figure is entirely based on my subjective observations, probably not terribly accurate, but you get the general idea).
With the new system, if the bonuses scale linearly with the level of the module (on the 1 to 20 scale mentioned above), you'd need your module to be level 16 to attain that same 80%, and in turn that would take 16 rolls.

If the bonus amount scaled logarithmically however, you could expect to get that same 80% far sooner, with the same 3 to 4 rolls, while still have a large headroom for progression in order to reach to top.
That means that players wanting "god tier" modules could keep advancing until they reach the max, entirely in line with that "clear sense of progression" that FD have professed as their main objective with these changes, while it would only require a limited amount of grind from players content with "lower upper tier" modules.

Hopefully that makes sense (and it hasn't already been brought up on this threat already, apologies otherwise).

 

[ebbrell]

Omg yeah the wakes. what will be required to fsd range level 5.

jump out of window time

 

[rp198419]

It seems obvious that FDev don't even play their own game, so why would they be interested in what players think?

 

[ebbrell]

Actually chemical processors are needed FSD range increase 2 and 3, so we would need to double up on qty

 

[Marklar_]

Omg yeah the wakes. what will be required to fsd range level 5.

jump out of window time

Relax, you'll need way more mats overall but not the really rare G5 mats so much. The extra mats you'll need are the lower-tier ones that are more common, and by the time you have the DWEs you'll have loads of the more common ones. And no more dumping all those lower-tier mats to make room.

People are focusing on the negative and making this seem way worse than it is.

 

[Dagwit]

Possibly the new system will get you to the best possible G5 module/weapon faster than the old search for god rolls.

But I can't see people rolling for grades they know in advance they're not going to keep viewing the progression up to Grade 5 as anything other than a waste of their time.

 

[ebbrell]

Another positive, looking at the negative effects, they didn't look as bad as current ones. I know some got secondary which made negative better.

but without secondary it looks better. hopefully values we saw were correct.

 

[Stealthie]

That's what almost everyone is doing right now. It's just that people ignore the maxxed "finished" version and go with almost-as-good rolls that take far less time to get...

Interesting POV and I guess it'll be worth comparing something like, say, a currently "average" G5 FSD with one generated by the new system to see what it takes before the new one is better than the existing one.

Even so, what I'm actually talking about is Sandro's apparent determination to create this extended mat' hunt in a bid to prolong the "progression" of the engineering process.
Is there anybody here who really believes that's going to happen?

Let's face it, all that's going to happen is that people are going to snag a couple of extra G5 mat's to trade-down and then use them to gather any required intermediate mat's whenever they create any mod's.

Hell, for all the good it'll do, they might as well just add "2 x any G5 mat" as a component in the recipe for every G5 mod' and cut out all the scavenger hunting completely.

 

[ebbrell]

You are right all in the air, until we get average comparisons.


and we see how good the material trader really is. we must be better off, hopefully

 

[Marklar_]

we must be better off, hopefully

I sure hope so. If FD goes to all of the trouble to make these changes and ends up making us hate engineering even more, I'll be the first to grab a pitchfork and torch.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Out of curiosity, how do you know how much experience people have with engineering? Are you assuming that only the people you agree with actually engineer their ships?

I think these changes will be good. I have about a dozen ships fully engineered with decent G5 rolls. How much engineering have you done?

It's very simple.
They preface their comments with things like:
"Well, I've never done much engineering but..."

I have 2 Annies, a Cutter, a Corvette, 2 ApsXs, 2 Pythons, T10 and well over a dozen other ships, including an 840m/s Courier; *all* of them are engineered.

I also have quite a few weapons with very high secondaries, so I'm pretty well aware of how the new system seems to have dropped the ball in that regard.


People providing objective observations are pretty easy to discern.

 

[EUS]

To OP, yes this is why you should G5 everything you can now, even just one roll, doesn't matter if it's garbage, get that G5 level, so that when the new system comes out, you can take the existing garbage G5, which will be downgraded to G4, and start your G5 rolls right away, or at least almost right away. No need to bother with g1-4.

 

[Marklar_]

People providing objective observations are pretty easy to discern.

You might be confusing posting numbers with objectivity. We all know what the numbers say, but they don't mean very much until we know how much easier it will be to get the mats. There isn't much objectivity in posting scary numbers about how many G1s need to be sold for a G5 and then claiming that the sky is falling, for instance.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

You might be confusing posting numbers with objectivity. We all know what the numbers say, but they don't mean very much until we know how much easier it will be to get the mats. There isn't much objectivity in posting scary numbers about how many G1s need to be sold for a G5 and then claiming that the sky is falling, for instance.

Posting numbers can certainly be very objective.
We can see quite clearly that it will require more mats and rolls to get a single G5 roll.
This gets worse the more ships/modules you have.
That is simply without question, ie it is an objective observation.

No one is claiming the sky is falling, that is just you being "non-objective".
I'm not confused at all.

 

[Marklar_]

Posting numbers can certainly be very objective.
We can see quite clearly that it will require more mats and rolls to get a single G5 roll.
This gets worse the more ships/modules you have.
That is simply without question, ie it is an objective observation.

No one is claiming the sky is falling, that is just you being "non-objective".
I'm not confused at all.

You keep focusing on the number of rolls and ignoring all mitigating changes. You are doing nothing in this thread but pouring out salt and implying that everyone who disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about, without bothering to address the actual arguments.

And then you want to call out other people for not being objective. This is getting rather trollish, do you have anything constructive to add to this thread? Or are you just here to pick fights?

 

[JonathanBurnage]

You keep focusing on the number of rolls and ignoring all mitigating changes. You are doing nothing in this tread but pouring out salt and implying that everyone who disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about, without bothering to address the actual arguments.

And then you want to call out other people for not being objective. This is getting rather trollish, do you have anything constructive to add to this thread? Or are you just here to pick fights?

Personally my frustration comes from the fact that FDev came so close with the new system. Most new features were excellent - continuous improvement, material trader, etc. But then they go and do something unnecessary like the G1-5 grind.

Consider your phrase "mitigating changes". To mitigate means to make something bad less severe, which is exactly how I view those things in light of the G1-5 grind - they make it less bad. But that's not a great feeling to have about an update, by any means: "Well they've stuffed that up good and proper, but these other things mean it won't be so bad."

The materials trader is a great thing. Less RNG is more than welcome. These should be causes for happiness! But instead we are left viewing these things as helping lessen the impact of a rather silly choice; rather than making the game better, they seem to be solutions to a problem entirely of FDev's own making.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

You keep focusing on the number of rolls and ignoring all mitigating changes. You are doing nothing in this thread but pouring out salt and implying that everyone who disagrees with you doesn't know what they are talking about, without bothering to address the actual arguments.

And then you want to call out other people for not being objective. This is getting rather trollish, do you have anything constructive to add to this thread? Or are you just here to pick fights?

I'm just pointing out the obvious.
No salt at all, and I'll probably benefit.
To be clear I'd also be okay with forfeiting all of my hard earned modules to the new system.

Just because I enjoy discussing the nuances dosn't mean anything else that you are implying.
To wit, I'm not the one making it personal...

So, that said, please show me how I'm wrong.
I'm totally open to that.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Personally my frustration comes from the fact that FDev came so close with the new system. Most new features were excellent - continuous improvement, material trader, etc. But then they go and do something unnecessary like the G1-5 grind.

Consider your phrase "mitigating changes". To mitigate means to make something bad less severe, which is exactly how I view those things in light of the G1-5 grind - they make it less bad. But that's not a great feeling to have about an update, by any means: "Well they've stuffed that up good and proper, but these other things mean it won't be so bad."

The materials trader is a great thing. Less RNG is more than welcome. These should be causes for happiness! But instead we are left viewing these things as helping lessen the impact of a rather silly choice; rather than making the game better, they seem to be solutions to a problem entirely of FDev's own making.

I agree entirely.
Also clearheaded criticism isn't hate or salt etc.
We should be able to look at parts and say they are more or less than ideal, or that they do or do not achieve the stated goals.
It's not "whole hog" every time, all the time.

 

[Marklar_]

But then they go and do something unnecessary like the G1-5 grind.

That's a fair point, it's a kick in the teeth to drool over the changes that will make things easier only to find out there's way more rolling to do to get a G5.

But think of how quick and easy it would be to get maxxed out modules if we got all of these changes but still needed the same number of rolls as now. They can't mitigate it to the point of trivializing maxxed modules. So they decided to gate G5 mods. We'll see how that works out, but this isn't arbitrary, they're doing it for a reason.

 

[JonathanBurnage]

That's a fair point, it's a kick in the teeth to drool over the changes that will make things easier only to find out there's way more rolling to do to get a G5.

But think of how quick and easy it would be to get maxxed out modules if we got all of these changes but still needed the same number of rolls as now. They can't mitigate it to the point of trivializing maxxed modules. So they decided to gate G5 mods. We'll see how that works out, but this isn't arbitrary, they're doing it for a reason.

Also a fair point. I would be content if they took the number of rolls it took across all grades to max it out, made G5 take that many, and let you skip straight to G5 rolls (like now). Then it would still take some effort to max out, but you could get a half-decent G5 roll quite quickly if that is all you want.