the new engineer system for dummies

[Ziljan]

Quick maths. Assuming fdev are not lying that max G4 in the new system will be equivalent to decent/max G5 in new system. To roll a new max G4 you will need

2 G5 of the main mat or 1 G5 2G4
1G5 or 2G4 of the second mat
1G4 or 2G3 of the third mat

To get the equivalent of a current G5 roll.

This is assuming 3 rolls per grade

Based on G4 roll is 1g4 1g3 1g2 mat

Seems much less to me...

And has the bonus of being reasonably guaranteed.

In the livestream, the benefit was an extra 2% per grade which adds up to +8% at grade 4. So if this carries to other mods like FSD boost, then the top of the new G4 range would be about ~48%. The top of the current range of G5 is 50%, so it seems like Frontier is roughly on track to have the old G5 equal the new G4. IF this carries upward to G5, then the new G5 FSD top end should be ~60%. Not bad imo and well worth doing ~15 rolls.

Someone pointed out earlier that mid-range mats are fairly plentiful, so getting those G1-G4 rolls should be as easy as showing up to an engineer with a handful of G3-G4 mats and at least enough for one G5 roll.

I think once people realize that they can do this, and add experimental bonuses to the new top end G5 non-weapon modules, they will calm down about the "negatives" and start to get excited about the huge upsides to the new system.

 

[CMDR Dizzy]

Very shortly, people will be along to tell you that you are wrong. Maybe they are right.

But Frontier insist it's for the long term betterment of the game, in which case I guess it doesn't matter what players who do this actually want. Game comes first, right?

I find this a very scary comment as whenever a developer/designer makes this particular statement then the long term consequences are usually loss of player population.

 

[Marklar_]

it seems like Frontier is roughly on track to have the old G5 equal the new G4.

I hope so, if the new max G4 is equivalent to the current G5 good-enough rolls that most of us are rocking, then this won't be so bad at all. Like you say, the mats for that should be easy to get. And then it's gravy from there, by current standards.

 

[EUS]

I hope so, if the new max G4 is equivalent to the current G5 good-enough rolls that most of us are rocking, then this won't be so bad at all. Like you say, the mats for that should be easy to get. And then it's gravy from there, by current standards.

That's not it.
The g5 gets downgraded to a max g4 only if you decide to engineer it some more, otherwise it stays g5.
It's not specified how the downgrade will affect the current numbers, you might take a hit, and be re-rolling for what you currently have.
Or not, it's clear as mud.

 

[JonathanBurnage]

I hope so, if the new max G4 is equivalent to the current G5 good-enough rolls that most of us are rocking, then this won't be so bad at all. Like you say, the mats for that should be easy to get. And then it's gravy from there, by current standards.

I'd be happy with this. More jump range!

Edit: I think they did say the new G5 would be a bit better.

 

[Marklar_]

That's not it.
The g5 gets downgraded to a max g4 only if you decide to engineer it some more, otherwise it stays g5.

I know, but this is about engineering new mods from scratch. Converting current G5s over isn't an issue because it bypasses the new roll-to-G5 gate.

 

[rcmil]

I think we all know the way this new system is gonna go.
[video=youtube;hQ6aDLpWON8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ6aDLpWON8[/video]

 

[s1ngular1ty]

Can't agree with that, sorry.

Here's some quick sums I did: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/395173-Delay-update?p=6223283&viewfull=1#post6223283

LOL,

This new system is insane. Thanks for doing the math. I think most people who are in favor of the new system failed basic math in school.

 

[Stealthie]

LOL,

This new system is insane. Thanks for doing the math. I think most people who are in favor of the new system failed basic math in school.

For the sake of objectivity, it's worth pointing out that we now know that we can trade-down high-grade mat's to attain lower-grade mat's and remove a lot of that.

Based on what we know, it seems like the most common course of action will just be to hoover up random G4/G5 mat's in the course of looking for the mat's we really need and then take them to the mat' trader and cash them in to obtain the mat's we need for the "level up" rolls.

Added to that, with the increase to mat' storage, you probably won't actually need to collect/buy specific mat's for a specific mod.
It'll be more a case of obtaining 100 of all the "level up" mat's and then burning through them to create mod's and then looking at your mat's every so often and thinking "Oops, looks like I'm running low on mid-tier mat's again so I'd better collect up some refined focus crystals from a RES and then go and swap them for mid-tier mat's again".

I wouldn't be surprised if sites like INARA modify their page to give people an "at a glance" list of all the mat's they'll need to carry out the intermediate rolls needed for every G5 mod'.
If they don't, I'll probably end up doing that for myself.

The main thing that irritates me is just how much of an extra faff this'll create for absolutely NO benefit.
Sandro can forget about "progression". That's just not going to happen.
People are just going to stockpile the intermediate mat's then it'll be G5 mat'-hunting as usual with the occasional stopover at a RES to collect refined focus crystals (probably the most straightforward high-tier mat to locate) and then visiting a mat broker to swap them for intermediate mat's to top-up your supplies.
And then going to an engineer and clicking a mouse button 10 times to rank-up a module to G5 and then clicking a mouse button however many times you can to get the G5 mod you want.

 

[Martian Successor]

The new system is certainly better for people that chased the best possible ship. For other playstyles it's perhaps not so good.

Actually this part of the new system is worse for "maxers" because it means going through G1, G2, G3 and G4 just to get to G5. Whereas before they could skip straight to rolling for a G5. It's also particularly brutal for those into PvP where maxing out your ship's performance via having a top end "gear score" is pretty much mandatory if you expect to be even remotely competitive.

Rolling every single important module through G1 to G4 just to unlock the G5 every time and on multiple ships is.... ouch. The new system's demand for materials has exponentially sky rocketed. FD believe the increased storage capacity and the material brokers to be the answer to that without any change to the material drop rates - keeping in mind we'll also have to feed the tech broker a huge chunk of mats. I guess we'll have to see how all that goes in the beta.

 

[Stealthie]

Actually this part of the new system is worse for "maxers" because it means going through G1, G2, G3 and G4 just to get to G5. Whereas before they could skip straight to rolling for a G5. It's also particularly brutal for those into PvP where maxing out your ship's performance via having a top end "gear score" is pretty much mandatory if you expect to be even remotely competitive.

Not sure about that.

The new system will require 12 rolls to gain G5 and then however many G5 rolls until you're happy.

Currently you can skip straight to G5 but then you might make 100 G5 rolls and get nothing spectacular.
Under the new system you'll be spending 12 rolls to gain G5 and you'll know that a dozen or so G5 rolls will get you somewhere near optimal.
Which would mean you could make another 20 rolls to scrape that last 2% and you'd still be nowhere near the 100 rolls you previously might have needed.

The only down-side is that you might just flat-out never be able to achieve a mod' that could previously be gained with a god-roll.

 

[Martian Successor]

Not sure about that.

The new system will require 12 rolls to gain G5 and then however many G5 rolls until you're happy.

Currently you can skip straight to G5 but then you might make 100 G5 rolls and get nothing spectacular.
Under the new system you'll be spending 12 rolls to gain G5 and you'll know that a dozen or so G5 rolls will get you somewhere near optimal.
Which would mean you could make another 20 rolls to scrape that last 2% and you'd still be nowhere near the 100 rolls you previously might have needed.

The only down-side is that you might just flat-out never be able to achieve a mod' that could previously be gained with a god-roll.

You have a point, now that chances of RNG screwing you is mitigated with each subsequent roll being better than the last. In a way this will make the new "best rolls" more achievable for everyone who's willing to roll roughly 14-16 times.

Grandfathered god rolls for specific weapons will never be obtainable again though because we will not be able to have both a secondary effect and a special weapon effect. This in essence will leave certain god rolled weapons as the most powerful in the game but no longer obtainable by anyone who didn't have one prior to the new system hittng live. Focused PAs with heat reduction and target lock breaker as well as long range cascade/super pen rails with low heat will never be achievable again but also nothing I have seen so far in the new system will be able to match them in terms of power. That seems like something FD didn't even stop to consider.

 

[Marklar_]

Grandfathered god rolls for specific weapons will never be obtainable again though because we will not be able to have both a secondary effect and a special weapon effect. This in essence will leave certain god rolled weapons as the most powerful in the game but no longer obtainable by anyone who didn't have one prior to the new system hittng live. Focused PAs with heat reduction and target lock breaker as well as long range cascade/super pen rails with low heat will never be achievable again but also nothing I have seen so far in the new system will be able to match them in terms of power. That seems like something FD didn't even stop to consider.

I'm a bit concerned about that too, but surely they've considered it. We'll see, hopefully it will be possible to roll better weapons in the new system.

 

[The Tick]

For the sake of objectivity, it's worth pointing out that we now know that we can trade-down high-grade mat's to attain lower-grade mat's and remove a lot of that.

Based on what we know, it seems like the most common course of action will just be to hoover up random G4/G5 mat's in the course of looking for the mat's we really need and then take them to the mat' trader and cash them in to obtain the mat's we need for the "level up" rolls.

Added to that, with the increase to mat' storage, you probably won't actually need to collect/buy specific mat's for a specific mod.
It'll be more a case of obtaining 100 of all the "level up" mat's and then burning through them to create mod's and then looking at your mat's every so often and thinking "Oops, looks like I'm running low on mid-tier mat's again so I'd better collect up some refined focus crystals from a RES and then go and swap them for mid-tier mat's again".

I wouldn't be surprised if sites like INARA modify their page to give people an "at a glance" list of all the mat's they'll need to carry out the intermediate rolls needed for every G5 mod'.
If they don't, I'll probably end up doing that for myself.

The main thing that irritates me is just how much of an extra faff this'll create for absolutely NO benefit.
Sandro can forget about "progression". That's just not going to happen.
People are just going to stockpile the intermediate mat's then it'll be G5 mat'-hunting as usual with the occasional stopover at a RES to collect refined focus crystals (probably the most straightforward high-tier mat to locate) and then visiting a mat broker to swap them for intermediate mat's to top-up your supplies.
And then going to an engineer and clicking a mouse button 10 times to rank-up a module to G5 and then clicking a mouse button however many times you can to get the G5 mod you want.

Indeed, that's another way to look at it. We will just keep what we have discarded before. Some stats from my primary account: for my 2000+ engineering rolls, I picked up 15000+ materials. And that was me collecting only the ones I needed. In the same playtime, I could have easily picked up all the other stuff, which is at least 3 times as much. With the storage limit at 1000/500 items, that made sense. Now it's 'hoover up anything' time.

 

[Stealthie]

Indeed, that's another way to look at it. We will just keep what we have discarded before. Some stats from my primary account: for my 2000+ engineering rolls, I picked up 15000+ materials. And that was me collecting only the ones I needed. In the same playtime, I could have easily picked up all the other stuff, which is at least 3 times as much. With the storage limit at 1000/500 items, that made sense. Now it's 'hoover up anything' time.

I don't pay a great deal of attention to the mat's I collect but I do have a system that involves always retaining 9 of each G1 mat', 12xG2, 15xG3, 18xG4 and 21xG5.
Using that system means I just about stay under the 1,000 mat' limit and it means the stuff I'm most likely to be short of is the stuff that's easiest to find.

Anyway, point is that I frequently find myself having to bin heaps of G4/G5 mat's.
I also use the same system for collecting data and I find myself binning surplus G4 and G5 data much more frequently.

With the new system, I guess we'll end up binning the same stuff but only after we've accumulated a stockpile of 100 of them, which means that's a big ol' supply of "useless" mat's which will now become a useful trading commodity.

I guess I should really start paying attention to what G4/G5 mat's and data I'm regularly binning so I'll know which to use as "trading currency" in the new system.

 

[Ydiss]

Very shortly, people will be along to tell you that you are wrong. Maybe they are right.

Personally, though, I'm entirely with you on this.

Currently if I want a new Grade 5 FSD for a new ship, I head along to an Engineer and do one or two rolls and then leave happy.

I won't be able to do that any more. I said this a month or two back, people told me to wait and see...because the material trader would make it all ok. However at current test levels, the material trader needs 1296 G1 materials for 1 G5 material. Not a lot of help really.

But Frontier insist it's for the long term betterment of the game, in which case I guess it doesn't matter what players who do this actually want. Game comes first, right?

It's not a case of saying "you're wrong" though. I see your 1296 g1s (caveat, values may change, no promises no guarantees) and raise you CIFs <--> MEFs (caveat not yet confirmed because we're all theory crafting because this shiznaz needs testing in beta).

The numbers don't look good on paper. And FD's choice in presentation of the new features left a lot to desire (watch as we take 5 rolls to craft when 3 would have done and just look at how few materials we have in our inventory to give the false perception that this is gonna be a massive grind).

Suffice to say, Sandro appeared pretty confident that the whole package would be less arduous than it is now for a reason. I just don't think the stream did his confidence any justice. Not least because it's not possible to demonstrate the end to end process in 10 minutes in a real world example.

For someone who has an inventory full of ~100 mats, I imagine that g5 FSD won't be a problem. Just more clicks, with zero RNG on the final outcome, which will be better than what they can get now (excluding god rollers).

Still, it's all just theory right now. So it's over to the testers to prove Sandro is wrong. I'd say in roughly 3 or 4 days, these "let me get this straight" threads will get tangibly more useful answers.

 

[InDigital]

Very shortly, people will be along to tell you that you are wrong. Maybe they are right.

Personally, though, I'm entirely with you on this.

Currently if I want a new Grade 5 FSD for a new ship, I head along to an Engineer and do one or two rolls and then leave happy.

I won't be able to do that any more. I said this a month or two back, people told me to wait and see...because the material trader would make it all ok. However at current test levels, the material trader needs 1296 G1 materials for 1 G5 material. Not a lot of help really.

But Frontier insist it's for the long term betterment of the game, in which case I guess it doesn't matter what players who do this actually want. Game comes first, right?

You can still search for G5 materials as before and you don't have to trade them. You just have now chance to trade if you want.
The other thing... I think it's better to have guaranteed results instead of frustration.
Third thing... More variations of engineered sips will come because of new side effect system.
So overal it's better because you know what you are working for and also because it will keep you playing this game longer now.

 

[Han_Zen]

Lots of info and unknown factors, but so far I have come to this conclusion.

The new engineering system looks good.

Here is why.

- Material storage makes more sense. When you star to fill up with some mats, you can upgrade them at the broker.
- The road to a decent module is longer, but the road to a top module is much shorter.
- The new system scales better. The time to 'max out' a small ship with few components is short. Massive ships with many components will take a long time.
- Switching between specials is easier. Just pay and switch.

All this suits my play style. I have a small fleet and like to take it to the engineers, when my storage has filled up. Currently I will often come back with no significant improvements at all. The new system allows for steady improvement and eventually finishing a ship or two.

I hope FD manages to weed out any good rolled grandfather modules that prove to be significantly better than the new stuff. If they do, this will become a good system.

 

[Mercy Killing]

That's an old problem, and the fix would be to let people adjust the difficulty level of interdictions instead of basing it on combat rank. That way people could ignore engineering and not worry about getting stomped by elite Annies.

Actually, the fix would be to simply make the launcher option Elite: Dangerous (64bit) just BE that version of the game. Like...without Horizons and future content.

And before anyone bursts a blood vessel over it, FDevs could simply make that version the offline option that everyone clamored for at the startup. It should be a simple flag gating the content, after all. Horizons True/False. Kinda like a PvP flag would work.

 

[Trickylion]

My material and data are always full, I keep about 12-19 of each item. So am I best losing all grade 1 and 2 items before beyond drops? To get room for higher grades.