I'm really impressed this thread hasn't devolved into a flame war. Way to go, us!
The New Guilds and Player Owned Stations Discussion Thread.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Me too - long may it continue! (or the thread will get a time-out for relevant posts to be reviewed and actioned as required).
My feeling is that specific guild-oriented content is unnecessary, but that better communication and in-game organisation tools are required to get things like powerplay to work. This would also allow the existence of guilds/corps/clans/whatever, since all that's required for them to exist in some form is a method to communicate. For that matter, there already are such groups, they just have to use organisational tools external to the game. At the same time, not implementing specific features for them, like the ability to own territory or buy stations or what have you, pretty much prevents the 'patchwork of fiefs' effect from developing. They would effectively end up as an improved friend functionality.
In terms of player-owned stations, I fail to see the point, honestly. Unlike, say, the X series, the economy of E: D appears much more abstract and obfuscated, with much fewer avenues of interaction for players. In some ways this is a good thing - it neatly avoids the sort of interface issues that made me want to disembowel myself with a spoon in X3:TC - but in others it's bad. The economy being so abstract prevents it from being as engaging as it could otherwise be. I certainly wouldn't mind being able, as an individual player, to be able to invest my money in the economy of the systems I frequent, with the consequence that if I invest in a computer component factory, the local station sells a few more computer components and I get a small cut of the profits. That sort of thing would be a lot less problematic than player-owned stations, and it'd give a real incentive for players to get involved in improving the economic situation of the systems they've chosen to invest in. After all, if the economy tanks or the system falls into civil war, chances are they're not going to get any return on their investment.
If you're not going the economy route for stations, the only real other option is territorial control, which I feel is a route that should be avoided. Permanent, organised groups - even fairly large ones - is fine. Even fairly large player groups would have limited ability to directly effect the world without the ability to directly control territory. Yeah, they could ensure that their favoured minor faction dominates certain systems, but I see no problem with that; the minor faction is basing its control on the mercenary group they hired or something. Same for PP. In all these cases, the players are effectively working for somebody else. When those groups start owning territory for themselves, on the other hand, you open the door to shenanigans, as well as no-doubt blistering arguments about them not being able to control the activities of solo players.
The flipside of the argument is that the galaxy is stupidly large, even the inhabited parts of it. There's no way that Frontier can actually personally create enough content to fill it all. You could probably devise a way to have organised guilds that can own territory but not have them interact with everything else much, just by using sheer distance. Guilds being limited to 'uncolonised' areas and having to settle and develop them, but being hugely limited in operation in settled areas that actually have their own governments, for example. It'd be a lot of work and probably easy to mess up, but on the other hand, it'd be a way to fill the galaxy up a bit. Not something that should be engaged in half-heartedly, though. I'd rather see powerplay sorted out to provide the organised group aspect of gameplay than introducing another completely different but half-finished feature.
In terms of player-owned stations, I fail to see the point, honestly. Unlike, say, the X series, the economy of E: D appears much more abstract and obfuscated, with much fewer avenues of interaction for players. In some ways this is a good thing - it neatly avoids the sort of interface issues that made me want to disembowel myself with a spoon in X3:TC - but in others it's bad. The economy being so abstract prevents it from being as engaging as it could otherwise be. I certainly wouldn't mind being able, as an individual player, to be able to invest my money in the economy of the systems I frequent, with the consequence that if I invest in a computer component factory, the local station sells a few more computer components and I get a small cut of the profits. That sort of thing would be a lot less problematic than player-owned stations, and it'd give a real incentive for players to get involved in improving the economic situation of the systems they've chosen to invest in. After all, if the economy tanks or the system falls into civil war, chances are they're not going to get any return on their investment.
If you're not going the economy route for stations, the only real other option is territorial control, which I feel is a route that should be avoided. Permanent, organised groups - even fairly large ones - is fine. Even fairly large player groups would have limited ability to directly effect the world without the ability to directly control territory. Yeah, they could ensure that their favoured minor faction dominates certain systems, but I see no problem with that; the minor faction is basing its control on the mercenary group they hired or something. Same for PP. In all these cases, the players are effectively working for somebody else. When those groups start owning territory for themselves, on the other hand, you open the door to shenanigans, as well as no-doubt blistering arguments about them not being able to control the activities of solo players.
The flipside of the argument is that the galaxy is stupidly large, even the inhabited parts of it. There's no way that Frontier can actually personally create enough content to fill it all. You could probably devise a way to have organised guilds that can own territory but not have them interact with everything else much, just by using sheer distance. Guilds being limited to 'uncolonised' areas and having to settle and develop them, but being hugely limited in operation in settled areas that actually have their own governments, for example. It'd be a lot of work and probably easy to mess up, but on the other hand, it'd be a way to fill the galaxy up a bit. Not something that should be engaged in half-heartedly, though. I'd rather see powerplay sorted out to provide the organised group aspect of gameplay than introducing another completely different but half-finished feature.
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Player own stations - such stations as there are in game just now, would cost an insane about of credits, never mind resources. Let us assume for a moment that somehow, some way a bunch of players raise the capital and resources (exact amounts would be arbitrary and guesswork at best). So you get a to build a station some place where the Imps or Feds or Alliance etc will let you. Lets say you eventually build one. Now what? You will need to ensure it has something worth using. Refuelling is the most basic. Repair and rearm next I would think. Bulletin board will be empty, as only you are there and no other factions. There's a thought- what will you do when other factions come to your station and set up shop? What about trade and the commodities markets. Stations sell stuff that their faction trades in. A player station is just that a station with no assets. Taxes? Running costs, wages, power.
Sounds awfully like a Sim City thing. Or worse, Spreadsheets in Space alike.
Why do you think player own stations are good, what do they bring to the game as a whole? So far all I've read is that it's the next 'Big Thing' to buy once you've ran out of ships.
The problem is not lack of player space stations, it's a lack of directional game play. What do I do? Where do I do it? Where is the next big thing? Until they get the bulletin board, mission system, background sim, and whatever else working to a level that creates interesting game play, adding more layers on top doesn't make sense.
Sounds awfully like a Sim City thing. Or worse, Spreadsheets in Space alike.
Why do you think player own stations are good, what do they bring to the game as a whole? So far all I've read is that it's the next 'Big Thing' to buy once you've ran out of ships.
The problem is not lack of player space stations, it's a lack of directional game play. What do I do? Where do I do it? Where is the next big thing? Until they get the bulletin board, mission system, background sim, and whatever else working to a level that creates interesting game play, adding more layers on top doesn't make sense.
While I don't like the idea of player owned large stations/systems, I think that increasing palyer's attachment to a system of small region can only help the game/immersion.
- Allow players to do some type of mini-CG/missions to add some ships to starport shiyard for eg (would love to see some kind of ship dealers franchises). Or add a blackmarket.
- Guilds : mm, I don't know about it, this is so dependant on each and everyone definition of it. What I think would make sense is to have PP chats & coms and coms for a certain group of people (like all your friends).
- Have stations reflect the political/economic status of the system better, and so provide clear feedback to the player. System is busted/famine : make the station look like slum. System has communist gov : red flags, yellow stars, bombastic music in starport and propaganda. What I mean is that the players don't have to own the station, having it feel 'home' and reflect their efforts in supporting a sys faction would be enough IMO.
- Consider the possibility of having small player owned hideouts, nothing big. More like an small asteroid base that you can somewhat upgrade for repairs/rearm/refuel and decorate to your liking. Make it a 'private' thing (i.e. only accessible by people in your instance). It does not break the game or anything, and would lead to cute/neat stuff like establishing explorers outposts.
I'll just repeat here what I pointed out in this thread:
What David Braben had to say about Guilds/Clans in Elite: Dangerous, during that EGX 2014 Q&A....
Question:
So there ya go - and his reply is something I completely and utterly agree with.
/thread
What David Braben had to say about Guilds/Clans in Elite: Dangerous, during that EGX 2014 Q&A....
Question:
David Braben:
So there ya go - and his reply is something I completely and utterly agree with.
/thread
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I can totally understand the context of this, social group systems are possibly one of the most important factors within multiplayer games that provide persistance, and I wouldn't be against player owned things in none occupied space, we have a huge galaxy.
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57% of the votes here completely against guilds and player-owned stations. That's a pretty official "nay". Take home lesson: reddit upvotes mean nothing and are not to be taken as representative.
Why believe that Reddit represents the ED community. Judging by the new poll here, it is already approaching 60% don't want at all and 11% only limited ownership. I think the answer negates your wishes and DB's vision and all us olduns, as someone put it, are the opinions that count not a bunch of Reddit posters, many of whom probably don't even own Elite, never mind play it. So you have your answer to your post and it seems it is a big fat No.
He also said there would be no instanced pvp and now we have CQC.
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This is only a few hours old. Let it play out.
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Nice try
There already was the capability for instanced PvP from the very start. Merely play in Open and chances are you'll encounter instanced PvP - whether it's wanted or not.
CQC is basically a separate game from the main game, using the ED assets to create a PvP arena mode, so I think you have been confused in this respect and hopefully my explanation has cleared that up for you.
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@Vlad,
could you please react to: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=166180&page=8&p=2538042&viewfull=1#post2538042
could you please react to: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=166180&page=8&p=2538042&viewfull=1#post2538042
![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
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Nice try
There already was the capability for instanced PvP from the very start. Merely play in Open and chances are you'll encounter instanced PvP - whether wanted or not.
CQC is basically a separate game from the main game, using the ED assets to create a PvP arena mode, so I think you have been confused in this respect and hopefully my explanation has cleared that up for you.
CQC is not really related here BUT seeing as they are taking the time out of the proper development of the game to do it, I do hope they do it properly.
There is talk of it being outside of the main game but earnings carrying over to it anyway. to me this is the worst of all worlds.
ideally to me it is better to have it in game....... have different arenas at different locations that you fly to and sign up for. Then it makes sense for earnings to carry over.
It also gives us some new scenery to see..... if i am not involved in CQC maybe I get a certain distance away and i get warnings from security to keep my distance. if i encroach too much i get attacked and get a criminal record..
OR
if they want everyone to be able to play it, even explorers at Sag A, then it should be kept as a separate game with NO cross over to the main game.
personally I prefer option 1, and then add a little bit of option 2 in there. imo have it in the main game where you can maybe earn a small amoutn of money but you have to fly there to sign up AND also maybe have a new addition to the scenarios at the start where anyone can play when ever, but this is outside of the game (in effect it becomes like ranked game - in the main game where you fly to the location, or unranked where you do when and where you like)
just my 2p and not really related... but it was not me who bought up CQC
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I would only vote for, instead of against if the player controlled stations were outside of power play areas. First, I can first picture it causing a major hassle, gangs trying to take control of Zachary areas where the new players would be interrupted trying to get to grasps of the game and it vastly spoiling their experience when being attacked.
Second it makes the areas outside the PP zones have far greater value.
I wouldn't make the mistake they made with getting your name under unexplored planets though, that should have been kept once per customer in my opinion so everybody had a shot, like those who joined at a later stage, so maybe just keep it at one area per guild.
People do camp the stars for people just warped into the area, experienced it popping into Rhea's HQ's for the first time as an attempt at stopping me/people collecting fortification cargo, they both blew me up and i was left wondering if NPC's were actually going to do anything to stop them as HQ should have been a hot territory for the enemy.
Having to get through one area to get to your guilds base might give the Open pvp'ers what they have been craving as it causes choke points. Causing excitement.
But then, what about guild stacking and being mighty outnumbered? Might cause too much terror going through a system to get to yours. This is something the 'open' players would have to discuss, how much they are concerned with loss.
Not everybody knows about private groups means separate area, this is something i had to learn. Another thing to be considered. It causing a divide.
Second it makes the areas outside the PP zones have far greater value.
I wouldn't make the mistake they made with getting your name under unexplored planets though, that should have been kept once per customer in my opinion so everybody had a shot, like those who joined at a later stage, so maybe just keep it at one area per guild.
People do camp the stars for people just warped into the area, experienced it popping into Rhea's HQ's for the first time as an attempt at stopping me/people collecting fortification cargo, they both blew me up and i was left wondering if NPC's were actually going to do anything to stop them as HQ should have been a hot territory for the enemy.
Having to get through one area to get to your guilds base might give the Open pvp'ers what they have been craving as it causes choke points. Causing excitement.
But then, what about guild stacking and being mighty outnumbered? Might cause too much terror going through a system to get to yours. This is something the 'open' players would have to discuss, how much they are concerned with loss.
Not everybody knows about private groups means separate area, this is something i had to learn. Another thing to be considered. It causing a divide.
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The point of guilds and player stations is to create conflict and fight over a station with other guilds taking part.
The universe is enormous and we can find a way to have the player stations either far from civilized space or in a corner of civilized space.
Commanders who don't want anything to do with it can just avoid the systems. The amount of player stations would be miniscule compared to NPC stations.
The other issue is how will this work from a technical and gameplay point of view? There's a whole host of issues that have arisen out of PP (some of which are not popular) which would be replicated to some degree by Player owned stations(?)
I hate to mention the word, but how does Eve do this?
I hate to mention the word, but how does Eve do this?
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Better yet, if implemented, restrict Guild play to a new Open-Guild mode and then there's a guarantee that players don't even need to avoid the systems where Guild members are playing.
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The problem I see with this is ED isn't Eve. The galaxy is persistent but instanced. So you could be attacking someone's POS (player owned station) but they couldn't defend it because you'd brought 32 people and maxed out your instance.
Unfortunately, ED and Eve are distinctly different games and what works in one won't necessarily work in the other due to fundamental design differences.
I just see solo player's going "haha cant get me" and that would be annoying and immersion breaking.
I can imagine the idea of a new mode going down as well as a fart in an elevator by the current open crowd
PS I am pleased that fart is not a restricted word.......
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