The New Trading System. Amazing Improvement, but Please Balance Profits

Which does prove your point that no-one "needs" to mode-flip, I guess, but in a rather different direction ;)

Fair comment.

Point is, some people seem to think they're entitled to just be given an endless supply of passengers to fill up their Anacondas and take to Smeaton (or whatever) rather than accepting the opportunities the game already offers.

This is compounded by the way they'll say "I just want to play the game rather than sitting in a station for 2 hours, stacking missions".
If you "just want to play the game" there's absolutely nothing stopping you doing that right now - you just won't get a ship-load of those high-value cookie-cutter missions to the same destination.

Anyway....

Just 'cos people were happy to be earning Cr10m per hour back in the day, I guess it doesn't matter if that's now increased to, say, 30m per hour (ignoring anomalies such as Palin's missions) instead.
What does matter is the limited methods of achieving that.
If we're saying that Cr30m/hr is the "new normal" then FDev really needs to be implementing a variety of methods to achieve that so that everybody (miners, traders, mission-runners, bounty-hunters, pirates and outlaws etc) can achieve this in the course of "blaizing their own trail".

From both a lore POV and a gameplay POV is seems a bit silly that a bus-driver can earn Cr100m/hr doing low-risk tasks while a lawful combat pilot is lucky to earn 10% of that for risking their ship and crew.
 
Fair comment.

Point is, some people seem to think they're entitled to just be given an endless supply of passengers to fill up their Anacondas and take to Smeaton (or whatever) rather than accepting the opportunities the game already offers.

This is compounded by the way they'll say "I just want to play the game rather than sitting in a station for 2 hours, stacking missions".
If you "just want to play the game" there's absolutely nothing stopping you doing that right now - you just won't get a ship-load of those high-value cookie-cutter missions to the same destination.

Anyway....

Just 'cos people were happy to be earning Cr10m per hour back in the day, I guess it doesn't matter if that's now increased to, say, 30m per hour (ignoring anomalies such as Palin's missions) instead.
What does matter is the limited methods of achieving that.
If we're saying that Cr30m/hr is the "new normal" then FDev really needs to be implementing a variety of methods to achieve that so that everybody (miners, traders, mission-runners, bounty-hunters, pirates and outlaws etc) can achieve this in the course of "blaizing their own trail".

From both a lore POV and a gameplay POV is seems a bit silly that a bus-driver can earn Cr100m/hr doing low-risk tasks while a lawful combat pilot is lucky to earn 10% of that for risking their ship and crew.

Interesting how the target becomes the players rather than the game or its structure.
Still struggling to see why it matters how fast other people earn money. And would really like to see a quantitative analysis of its significance, rather than the hand-waving etc, to get a more objective perspective on things.
Wonder what the next 'burn them at stake' issue will be, when this one is fixed.
Pious, self-righteous indignation I guess.
 
Interesting how the target becomes the players rather than the game or its structure.
Still struggling to see why it matters how fast other people earn money. And would really like to see a quantitative analysis of its significance, rather than the hand-waving etc, to get a more objective perspective on things.
Wonder what the next 'burn them at stake' issue will be, when this one is fixed.
Pious, self-righteous indignation I guess.

The issue isn't how people make credits.
It's the absurd justifications they have for their actions.

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
 
To clarify the motivation behind my first post.

This is not a matter of "telling others how they should play their game". As I said, I am sure there's people who ignore passenger missions (expoity or not) and have a blast making lower profits with other activities, such as trading, pirating, or mining. Do the high-earners somehow stop them from having fun and should therefore be "punished"? No, of course not.

This is rather a matter of taking a synoptic (sorry!) look at the game as a whole, as if it was still an empty sandbox with no players, and asking: are 1) the gameplay loops and 2) the rewards given by each of these activities balanced? (note: balanced does not mean the same, in terms of pay and/or of risk). Are they equally attractive to the average player? Do they offer a range of possibilities that feel like giving you an actual choice of how you want to make your career as a pilot?

My impression, brutally summarizing my first post, is that they are definitely not, mostly because of one of these activities that pays orders of magnitude more than the others. And, in a game where money is one of the few tools for progression, that it's only normal for the less straight-backed among us (and I count myself in this group) to feel terribly tempted to take that sweet passenger mission that allows you to make the same cash you'd make -- say -- pirating, and in a fraction of the time.

Call me weak, but I often fire up the game, spawn at my home station, and facing a choice like "will I do these 3 planetary scan missions for 4/5 million credits and about five +s of INF or will I load up my Beluga and earn 45 million and about eitgheen +s of INF in about the same time?" Guess which one I choose.
 
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To clarify the motivation behind my first post.

This is not a matter of "telling others how they should play their game". As I said, I am sure there's people who ignore passenger missions (expoity or not) and have a blast making lower profits with other activities, such as trading, pirating, or mining. Do the high-earners somehow stop them from having fun and should therefore be "punished"? No, of course not.

I fear you're on a hiding to nothing there.

Seems that whenever you try and discuss any inequity in the game's current structure some of the people taking advantage of that situation will see it as an attack and will start with the whole "dindunuffink" thing.

You're absolutely right though.
The main issue is simply that it'd be nice if there were a whole variety of tasks which offered roughly the same rewards or, even better, the rewards were scaled in accordance with the risks involved.

The weird thing is, even if they aren't going to say so publicly, FDev must have some "benchmark" for what they think is a reasonable income and, that being the case, they must be aware that some activities either vastly exceed it or some activities fail miserably to achieve it.

Currently, it's hard to avoid the impression that FDev want everybody flying passenger ships to earn credits.
 
Long range passenger missions take time to accomplish. Trade missions take less time but require more of them to make similar profits. Both are just fine as is.
I think the OP request for balance hits on that. That’s what needs a look.

A single long distance passenger run should roughly equal several shorter trade runs.

Time and payout....Balanced.
 
I do think that fdev should decide a rough earning cap and ensure that all professions cap approximately at this level.

Trade would really benefit from higher price spreads along the board to make more commodities worthwhile while also limiting quantities of the most expensive goods. Having more glut/shortage situation creating "gold rush situations to profit from would be best.
 
All professions should essentially have the same baseline credits per hour for ingame play.

That baseline then should be adjusted based on difficulty (like Rez security, system State, distance etc....). Hopefully each profession has a scale of difficulty that can be applied.

This is a basis of pretty much all game design, and is WAY easier for us arm chair devs to fix :)
 
I'm not sure I agree that pax missions are comparable to commodity trade if the basis for that argument is the very best routes for commodity trade.

I did trading extensively way back in the day (first year of release) and the sheer level of effort required to build up your credit balance, ships to trade with, route finding (something that never ends due to the BGS) to the point of absolute trading perfection is huge.

Conversely, finding lucrative missions that pay large value payouts is much less demanding (certainly these days). The route to the perfect ship and missions isn't nearly as long a curve and the acquisition of the best missions is much less demanding once you're there.

You also never need to invest capital (required in commodity trade), though that is moot for many players now (but I think it's a bad idea to focus on game balance without considering the impact to new players).

I've seen, played through and sometimes used most of the game's get rich quick "events". It's been a long, long time since commodity trading was one of them. It was the original grandfather of them, certainly. At launch, it was the only way to make serious credits.

None of that changes the fact that these new enhancements were and still are desperately needed. I am not sure if pax missions totally eclipse commodity trade right now but I do know that the players who would benefit from the new trade tools are probably not the same players who will always do the very best credit generating activity (or flavour of the month).

It'll benefit new players and players who like trading. It might persuade some players to try trading out. But I doubt the get rich quick bracket of player would be willing to invest the time into these new tools unless it guaranteed the best payout available (and it won't do that, even if pax was reduced in payout to be more in line).

So, I agree that all careers and missions need to be rebalanced (there's never yet been a time that hasn't been true) but I don't think eliminating the current flavour of the month will encourage anyone to drop their career to pick trading just because it has new in game tools.

I only did trading because it was the best (only) way to make good money at launch. I stopped doing it as soon as combat rewards were good enough; I found it fun, particularly building up my capital and trade ships to get bigger rewards. However, these new tools won't get me trading again because I still remember how much I had to invest into it time-wise and I prefer to do combat orientated things.

Regardless, these changes are excellent. They're great for new players and existing traders. They're maybe a little late but they're great nonetheless.

I just don't think any shine is lost just because of what the op raises. Balance is essential. Not just because of enhanced QoL features FD introduce. If pax is the ultimate credit generator bar nothing else, that needs to be addressed, full stop.

But, and I feel this is the most important thing that I've not yet said... Commodity trade and pax/trade missions should be way, way down FD's list of priorities when it comes to career balance. Trading has always been a functional career (this update improves it further). Missions have quickly become the easiest route to cash (the level of effort is minimal). Smuggling, piracy, exploring and so on... These are in much greater need of balance redress.

Trading just got one. I don't think it's necessary to reduce pax just because we want more players to trade. We need all careers to get tools and enhancements so they're more fun and lucrative enough to be viable choices.

My hope (as a potentially returning player) is this upcoming series of updates is going to do that (and that's what Sandro suggested it may do).
 
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You could even lore-base a general increase in profit margins for the "shipping company" that each trader ingame really is, as this 'war' with the Thargoids provides the notion of increased risk.
As we all know from Mideast oil price variations, just the notion of increased risk is enough for producers/middlemen to capitalize on.
 

Not really commodity trading though...these are missions.

The old A-B commodity trading doesn't really work anymore...and based on this will not ever again...easier to just take these missions (at least once you make Elite!) than trying to find an A-B run.
 
Not really commodity trading though...these are missions.

The old A-B commodity trading doesn't really work anymore...and based on this will not ever again...easier to just take these missions (at least once you make Elite!) than trying to find an A-B run.

That is 100% correct. Unless the margins improve a lot when trading to anarchy system or to specific BGS states.
 
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