The "No Game" comments

[shrinkshooter]

I'm tired of these selling arguments. Mc Donald is selling how many hamburgers? Does it mean it's good for your health? Does this selling argument saying anything meaningful at all?

Are you kidding me?

You heavily imply/agree with the idea that no one wants to use their imaginations anymore, and Deyu counters by telling you that a game which requires imagination sold 100 million copies in recent years, to say nothing of its many clones and inspirations. How in god's name do you not think it's relevant? How can you possibly think that's some sort of fallacy (which, ironically, is exactly what your quoted statement above is)? His point directly counters yours, and your response to his is to claim that it doesn't and the sales of an imaginative game don't mean anything?

What is happening to this board...

 

[zaccheus44]

mostly disturbing are posts like thus, where guys state their own flocking thougts as fact, it isnt that hard to ad "I think" as the guy ur criticising did^^

to me it also doesnt feel dead as some people might say, it would instead look too artificial to me if there where spaceships and nebulae and singularitiys everywhere.....
so maybe this just depends on the persons own expectations? to have it said, its blowing my personal expectation in immersion of the milkyway, never felt like I could really imagine and watch the star wich Im orbiting ingame in reallife!!!! dajum guys to me its just awesome! of couse in freaking deep space u have to search and spent some time to find an adventure, how could u expect it else?

Perhaps I stated an opinion as a fact, sorry to disturb you. But i don't think you read my post, or maybe you are intentionally straw manning me, but I was talking about the players interaction with the universe being souless or dead, which you didn't address. Please demonstrate that the randomly generated NPC bots have at least as much depth as the npcs in GTA as opposed to the bots in Quake Arena in single player mode. This isnt even controversial I think, and therefore is objectively true that the npcs in ED are soulless, this fact makes it harder for me to immerse myself in the game world in my opinion.
Now I do agree the milky way sim is awesome, I love the graphics and flying around (as I said I like the flight mechanics, they just aren't realistic, another statement of fact btw which takes away from total immersion, but a less harmful one imo), it's actually why I'm still playing and arguing on this board to try and whip up motivation in the devs to make it better

 

[Caboose187]

Does anyone ever think outside the box anymore. We have here a structure that allows us to be a space pilot of whatever means. You want to be a bounty go be one, want to be a pirate go be one, wan to be a trader go be one. You can then also choose to join in the war that's going on within the factions or you can choose to be nothing. The choice is yours. Again, think outside the box. Games don't need hand holding mechanics to tell you what to do. Missions are their to do them if you choose, not because you have to. That's the difference between a sandbox game and a plain story driven game.

 

[zaccheus44]

Does anyone ever think outside the box anymore. We have here a structure that allows us to be a space pilot of whatever means. You want to be a bounty go be one, want to be a pirate go be one, wan to be a trader go be one. You can then also choose to join in the war that's going on within the factions or you can choose to be nothing. The choice is yours. Again, think outside the box. Games don't need hand holding mechanics to tell you what to do. Missions are their to do them if you choose, not because you have to. That's the difference between a sandbox game and a plain story driven game.

Omg it's not hand holding that we are talking about. Please will the white knights stop straw manning the argument of anyone who criticizes this game. So it's a space game and you can do whatever you want? Can I even speak to the NPC I was hired to assassinate? Maybe he'll change my mind. Can I haggle a price with a merchent to try and squeeze a few more credits out of my haul? Can I hijack a ship? Salvage valuable parts from a defeated anaconda? Maybe slap the fed rep who offers me a mission to kill fed security ships because the random quest generator is so clumsy that it can literally generate a mission from the system security to kill system security ships in that system? The game lacks heart, it lacks progressive difficulty, and it is in no way dynamic, it's random and hollow. Keep maintaining the status quo with the mindless defense of this game and it will never be great.

 

[Dissentient]

Does anyone ever think outside the box anymore. We have here a structure that allows us to be a space pilot of whatever means. You want to be a bounty go be one, want to be a pirate go be one, wan to be a trader go be one. You can then also choose to join in the war that's going on within the factions or you can choose to be nothing. The choice is yours. Again, think outside the box. Games don't need hand holding mechanics to tell you what to do. Missions are their to do them if you choose, not because you have to. That's the difference between a sandbox game and a plain story driven game.

Again, think about Minecraft and how many people play it. There are no handholding mechanics there too.
The reason people complain about ED being boring is not because they want to be told what to do or a story, but because the only things that you can do in this game are simple, boring and repetitive. People want more complex mechanics, more content to explore and more ways to meaningfully affect the universe, not hand-holding or linear stories.

 

[Demonic Squid]

I can play the game with no computer if I use my imagination...i don't even have to spend money buying it!. I can also imagine that it is a complete and fully functioning game!

As the saying goes, masturbation is no fun on your own...

 

[nexxo]

As the saying goes, masturbation is no fun on your own...

Don't knock it. It's sex with someone you love.

 

[Caboose187]

Omg it's not hand holding that we are talking about. Please will the white knights stop straw manning the argument of anyone who criticizes this game. So it's a space game and you can do whatever you want? Can I even speak to the NPC I was hired to assassinate? Maybe he'll change my mind. Can I haggle a price with a merchant to try and squeeze a few more credits out of my haul? Can I hijack a ship? Salvage valuable parts from a defeated anaconda? Maybe slap the fed rep who offers me a mission to kill fed security ships because the random quest generator is so clumsy that it can literally generate a mission from the system security to kill system security ships in that system? The game lacks heart, it lacks progressive difficulty, and it is in no way dynamic, it's random and hollow. Keep maintaining the status quo with the mindless defense of this game and it will never be great.

I'm far from a white-knight towards this game. FD bombed when creating it's multiplayer end of it and it might not be able to recover but the garbage I've been reading spewed on these forums is atrocious and toxic. You get one group who tells people to go play Star Citizen and you get another group tells that group to go play a single player game. People keep spewing, "I'm bored". Well then stop grinding for the best stuff and go and explore the galaxy. Go start influencing systems to join your faction. If you're going to play this game like Warcraft and grind your way to biggest baddest stuff right away well then that's your own problem if you get bored.

 

[chagnampra]

I posted this on one of the Facebook groups I'm a member of in response to a few people saying that there was no 'Game' in Elite and that there was nothing to keep them playing.

It prompted quite a discussion, with no flaming, no name calling, no tempers getting heated... just a nice open discussion on the current games market and what Elite is. I thought I would re-post it here...

========================================​

Picture this... I don't know if you are old enough to remember or if you were alive
then, but back in the 1980s computer games all followed (pretty much) the same structure...

You had three lives, and perhaps a power-up, a bomb or a bonus item of some sort. You could get a bonus life/bomb/item at various points through the game. You played till you lost your lives and that was it.

Then along came Elite, which through away the rule book and tried to do something different. And it did. And without Elite breaking the rules back then you probably wouldn't have games like GTA, Eve, Warcraft, etc.,

Now, 30yrs later it is trying to break the mold again by throwing away the new 'rule book' for online gaming. Look at the games that are out there... What do you see?

You see a selection of game that all appear to be different from each other, but have a closer look... Nearly all of them follow the same pattern (or rules).
1 - Start game with big introduction placing you in the middle of a big event.
2 - Make the player the most important character in the event.
3 - Give player a walkthough and then set stages for them to complete
4 - At the end of each stage give the player a bonus
5 - At the end of a set of stages, give them a boss fight and a bonus
6 - Repeat till end of story.

Now, I enjoy some of these games myself, play a lot of them. But you are basically following the same process through each game.

Now here comes Elite...
1 - It places you in a live galaxy.
2 - You aren't the most important person in the game.
3 - It allows you to find your own way.
4 - They provide a set of events which you can decide to interact with 'if' you want to.
5 - There are no boss fights, but your interactions actually influence how the events/story evolves.
6 - There is no end of story.

But there is one major thing needed... An Imagination!

That is what is lacking in the other games, They give you everything and you don't need to put any of yourself in to the game. Elite is different...

Instead of being a game that plans your every move and leads you down a set path, Elite is totally open.

Elite is whatever 'You' bring to the game.

Nice post.

I totally agree - Elite is a different type of game to many and, even when it is 'finished', it will require a degree of imagination on the part of the player. (In fact, this should come under 'Game Specifications' required to run the thing...)

Of course, the game requires 'fleshing out', and no doubt the Devs will do that in time. But seriously, I can't believe how much whining I have read in this forum from some users. Get a grip, people!!! I, for one, am glad that this game exists and I can play it. Or would it be preferable that the game remained behind closed doors for another year or two? Not for me. There's enough of an experience here for me already and I look forward to what the future has in store. Hopefully, that will also mean less WHINGING!

 

[obliterator]

It seems we live in a world where not only are people content to allow others to take the blame, responcibility and do everything for you but as demonstrated in this game people like others to think for them too. No imagination.

According to your logic, you shouldn't play videogames, as you should be able to imagine it all in your head! No need for anything!

 

[Chaodiurn]

+Rep for the first one to bring in a philosopher who says everything ever only happens in one's head.
This thread is golden entertainment.

Let's face it, this thread survived itself. There are basically three groups here that argue against each other and then themselves:

First, the ones who are alright with what's here. They're happy and don't want other people to talk down what they hold so high. They don't see any missing features. They see the current state of the game as a true chance, for both the game and the players. They say a game has to be reflected by the gamer in his mind to truly form, and with the few impulses ED gives us, this makes the ultimate opportunity for escapism. They want others to be able to see this too.

Second, their opposites, who are not happy because all the lacking content makes the game not sandboxy (seen as opposite to linear), but downright emotionally empty, artificial and ultimately pointless. They're those who are tempted to leave until FD delivers with further patches, what they expect FD to do, since it would be, according to them, unavoidable to keep the game alive.

And then the third, who are somewhere in between. Basically they are fine with what's here, but somehow the connection to what they're doing is missing. A real life space-bounty hunter would do so to survive. In game, we do not need to survive. Riches are not really of worth, since the only target can at the moment be a larger ship with better equipment. This group only needs small adjustments to be happy, counting social features in. Note how the second and third group are very similar and largely differ in how unhappy they are.

Thus, we are turning opinions around until everyone complained about everything to everyone, what makes continuation of this thread as much needed as... no, now I was going to get inappropriate. To cut it short, go on, my dear fellow people! It largely entertains me to read this thread while bounty hunting.

 

[Alric]

+Rep for the first one to bring in a philosopher who says everything ever only happens in one's head.
This thread is golden entertainment.

Let's face it, this thread survived itself. There are basically three groups here that argue against each other and then themselves:

First, the ones who are alright with what's here. They're happy and don't want other people to talk down what they hold so high. They don't see any missing features. They see the current state of the game as a true chance, for both the game and the players. They say a game has to be reflected by the gamer in his mind to truly form, and with the few impulses ED gives us, this makes the ultimate opportunity for escapism. They want others to be able to see this too.

Second, their opposites, who are not happy because all the lacking content makes the game not sandboxy (seen as opposite to linear), but downright emotionally empty, artificial and ultimately pointless. They're those who are tempted to leave until FD delivers with further patches, what they expect FD to do, since it would be, according to them, unavoidable to keep the game alive.

And then the third, who are somewhere in between. Basically they are fine with what's here, but somehow the connection to what they're doing is missing. A real life space-bounty hunter would do so to survive. In game, we do not need to survive. Riches are not really of worth, since the only target can at the moment be a larger ship with better equipment. This group only needs small adjustments to be happy, counting social features in. Note how the second and third group are very similar and largely differ in how unhappy they are.

Thus, we are turning opinions around until everyone complained about everything to everyone, what makes continuation of this thread as much needed as... no, now I was going to get inappropriate. To cut it short, go on, my dear fellow people! It largely entertains me to read this thread while bounty hunting.

Or in short, people are discussing things on a discussion forum. And you, being a person who came to a discussion forum, like it.
Great stuff!

 

[Chaodiurn]

Or in short, people are discussing things on a discussion forum. And you, being a person who came to a discussion forum, like it.
Great stuff!

Exactly! Just the reason why I think the Frontier board needs a meta-discussion sub-board. As dear Mr Moderator put it earlier, discussions about gaming in general, as this one slowly becomes such a thing, are not that much wanted in the ED Discussion board. What I think is sad.

 

[Muthax]

Are you kidding me?

You heavily imply/agree with the idea that no one wants to use their imaginations anymore, and Deyu counters by telling you that a game which requires imagination sold 100 million copies in recent years, to say nothing of its many clones and inspirations. How in god's name do you not think it's relevant? How can you possibly think that's some sort of fallacy (which, ironically, is exactly what your quoted statement above is)? His point directly counters yours, and your response to his is to claim that it doesn't and the sales of an imaginative game don't mean anything?

What is happening to this board...

Braben went the KS way to avoid having to produce a mainstream game. His words, not mine!

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-09-26-elite-dangerous-the-david-braben-interview

 

[revengemadmax]

Played since paid beta and I've very much enjoyed everything but the game needs more content.

At the moment it feels like it's still quite early In development.

To be fair yes I do lack imagination but that is why I play video games... I lack imagination so I play video games to get stolen away Into the developers imagination incarnate. I agree I am spoilt by today's games.

I'm just saying.

 

[zaccheus44]

I'm far from a white-knight towards this game. FD bombed when creating it's multiplayer end of it and it might not be able to recover but the garbage I've been reading spewed on these forums is atrocious and toxic. You get one group who tells people to go play Star Citizen and you get another group tells that group to go play a single player game. People keep spewing, "I'm bored". Well then stop grinding for the best stuff and go and explore the galaxy. Go start influencing systems to join your faction. If you're going to play this game like Warcraft and grind your way to biggest baddest stuff right away well then that's your own problem if you get bored.

sorry if I hurt your feelings calling you a white knighr, maybe I'm wrong, but it looks like you are white knight'ing on this thread, when did I say anything about playing this game like WoW? How on earth do you know how I play? I have explored. I have tried influencing systems, I'm allied in several systems actually. I have gotten a mission from the faction faction running g security that I'm allied with to kill security vessels of that faction. That clearly is neither immersive nor dynamic. Its stupid and shallow and has nothing to do with my imagination or wanting this game to be like WoW.

 

[Alric]

Braben went the KS way to avoid having to produce a mainstream game. His words, not mine!

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-09-26-elite-dangerous-the-david-braben-interview

True but the point around sales concerns gamers not the game. People are saying that modern gamers can't handle an open ended game which requires imagination/doesn't hold your hand. This is countered by the fact that some of this generations defining and most popular games are open ended, don't hold your hand and require imagination. They commonly imply that modern games are all variants WoW and CoD, which is simply false, and only suggests a lack of knowledge of modern gaming.

 

[Slategrey252]

Binary solution set. You like the game or you don't. You stay or you quit.

Doesn't matter what the game is or was meant to be.

I like it and I'm staying... and that's after playing eve for 10 years.

 

[Mysturji]

The year: 3300
The place: The Milky Way galaxy
The scenario: You are the commander/pilot of your own starship.
The rest: Is up to you.

This reminds me of the slavery thread: Some people just don't know what to do with freedom.

 

[Xbob42]

I just don't get how someone could possibly argue against having more tools to use their imagination in this game.

Everyone is so stuck in their mindset of "These damned kids want it easy with a story to hold their hands!" that they don't see how everyone is looking at them with raised eyebrows because WE WANT THE OPPOSITE. We want MORE tools, we want it to be MORE like a sandbox. Right now, Elite Dangerous is like a sandbox that has a plate of glass covering all the sand. You can see it, and it looks tempting, but you can't play with it yet. You can scrape your little toy space ship across the glass, but you can't really change anything. We hope for the big updates, which act as a hammer upon the glass. With enough updates, it shall shatter and we shall truly be free to do what we want in the universe. (For the sake of the metaphor we're not covered in plate glass, screaming and bleeding, because it's a metaphor.)

We want to use our imaginations more than anyone else, and the game forcibly denies us this ability. Someone above said they never played Minecraft... You should go give it a shot if you really like using your imagination. Has to be about space? Starmade. Space Engineers. Kerbal Space Program.

But this isn't about me telling you to go get other games, that's not the point -- the point is I want you to see that imagination is THE big craze right now. It's what we want to use, these games let us use it to change the game world, to leave our tiny little marks on these giant universes. To play with our friends and combine our imaginations to make mind-boggling things.

View attachment 6156

A ship, enormous, hand-made, block by block, power systems built by hand. Cockpit, built by hand, all weapons placed by hand. All the work of imagination.

View attachment 6157

A city hanging in a giant tree in Minecraft, also built by hand. The entire scene, block by block, including the huge tree.

I was going to post some more, but there's a limit per post. The point is, imagination in video games is a thousand times more relevant than it ever has been, and people spend days, months and years making things not a single one of us here could ever hope to compare to.

Part of the problem with the "I'm stuck in 1984" mentality is that you don't understand that we no longer live in a mono-culture. Yes, lots of modern gamers like Call of Duty. Lots of modern gamers also like Minecraft. Or both. The lines are blurred or gone. Gaming is too huge to use these umbrella terms any longer. The "modern gamer" is a spectrum, not a list of "us or them."