The Open v Solo v Groups thread

Keeping in mind that I’m excluding 5C activities here, what would be so bad about different players and groups having fun with PowerPlay on their own terms, rather than slaving away at the orders of one self-appointed “leader?” I already have a day job, I don't need another. My attitude towards these "Leaders" has always been "I'll take your suggestions under advisement." I have a lot of respect for the amount of effort required to formulate an optimal strategy, but at the end of the day I play to make my own decisions, not follow the decisions of another.
Everyone makes their own decisions, all the time, regardless of how much information we have. The question is how much we learn, and who we consult. Obviously if someone just said "this is my decision and I will not explain it" that's unacceptable, but I have never encountered that. Most people just wanna play the game and trust someone else to learn it (I would largely consider myself in this camp). Your attitude is the attitude of pretty much everyone, I think, because we have no obligation. We're not under any sort of coercion.

Oh, another thing: as the man said, I love democracy. I don't consider a leader that can't be voted down to be a good leader. At least in the FUC it's democratic, I don't know about other communities.
The 5C players are already playing against the "spirit" of PowerPlay rules, let alone by your rules. Do you honestly expect that they'll play "fair" if they're forced into Open with the current instancing rules? Or that some PvE players will follow suit to preserve the gameplay they previously enjoyed? That's a recipe for frustration IMO. I find that Open in Elite Dangerous is far more enjoyable than it has any right to be, given how similar MMO environments have been in the past.
I would prefer that 5Cers clogged than did everything in Solo, because at least then we'd see them. But to be clear, I'm not advocating for OOPP. There are a lot of potential solutions to PP's issues and I don't know that that's the best way. I would MUCH prefer that the game were restructured in a way as to make that void... and hopefully we'll get that. But otherwise, I'd prefer to build consensus and put in place agreements.
 
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o be clear, there is a distinction between PP and the rest of the game. It is necessary that PVP is optional for everything outside of PP (and maybe BGS). But as for PP, no, I cannot accept the design. Nobody does, because it's a bad design. If everybody played with this "I am an island" mentality, PP would be dead. But I feel I've already explained my position on that so I won't reiterate it.

There is absolutely no distinction.
PP is a purely PVE activity that delves into asymmetrical group versus group (not player vs player) which relies on filling some pve buckets and counting the results on a weekly basis.
The fact that you do not accept the design is your problem, while "nobody does" is... well... lets say that since PP10 is still played it means that "everyone does"

And if you believe that PP20 will make PVP mandatory, i think you'll be in for a big disappointment.
IIRC they said they will give "more reasons to engage in pvp" in PP20 at which i say they will give more opportunities for pvp (which is different from reasons) but they will not punish solo/pg people.
 
but they will not punish solo/pg people.
How do you know that?
Perhaps they will. Whos to say?
Fact is we're all speculating and we don't have a clue what they have in store for us all.
And the new python, the new fsd. All points (purely speculation) to pvp playing a more prominent role.
Or not.
I'm not being arbitrary.
 
How do you know that?
Perhaps they will. Whos to say?
Fact is we're all speculating and we don't have a clue what they have in store for us all.
And the new python, the new fsd. All points (purely speculation) to pvp playing a more prominent role.
Or not.
I'm not being arbitrary.
But you do sound like you are channelling your inner OA.

I hope any changes do not adversely affect me too much though.

Steve
 
And the new python, the new fsd. All points (purely speculation) to pvp playing a more prominent role.

Well, if you say that FDL is a pvp ship, i will say it's a combat ship first and foremost.

Hopefully the Python Mk2 will offer some competition to FDL without making the FDL obsolete. Hopefully
 
If the new python flys better handles heat as good as an fdl and has 5 hardpoints(x4 size 2 x1 huge) then it's doom for the lance
 
How do you know that?

Because modes are here to filter players out, not to filter out game features
And because PVP is optional in Elite.

Sure, there are some really slim chances they may change that, but i like to think they will not
And IF they will push PVP, they will be in for a big surprise related to cheating becoming rampant.

Let's be honest now, PVP being optional and non impactful in the overall game, it doesnt offers much incentives to cheat except "fer the lulz". But if anything in the game will become dependent on PVP, the reasons to cheat will skyrocket.
Add to that the (slow and) reactive position of FDev relative to cheaters (you have to report them else they're honest players), lack of any 24/7 in-game support and lack of any anti-cheat mechanics (both in-game and code wise) and you will have a pvp-disaster-game waiting to happen.

So, whenever the discussion comes about pvp in ED (as in serious pvp instead of optional pvp). i like to paraphrase Ben Kenobi saying: This is not the PVP game you are looking for.
 
If the new python flys better handles heat as good as an fdl and has 5 hardpoints(x4 size 2 x1 huge) then it's doom for the lance

it will have 6 hardpoints (officially confirmed) and if the images from the previous stream are pertinent to the final ship, it will have 4 large and 2 medium hardpoints making it the most heavily armed medium ship in the game.
 
True 👍 ti's human nature to "adapt" or cheat. Finding ways is what makes us different to animals hehe.
Anyways all aspects of elite are optional. No one aspect has the monopoly of optional.
Don't like pvp being called an optional thus singling out pvpers as niche.
We're here to stay...culled somewhat due to a lack of pvp overall. But here nonetheless.
 
During the Thargoid war I've worked with Op Ida, PDES and Op Wych Hunt to secure specific objectives (Almost always in Open). More recently with the battle for Oya I'm working more closely with DcOH and the samplers, though with both Titan attacks and Spire work the mechanics are vastly more stable in Solo.
I dread to think the state of having to to either in Open to have an effect.
 
How do you know that?
Perhaps they will. Whos to say?
Fact is we're all speculating and we don't have a clue what they have in store for us all.
And the new python, the new fsd. All points (purely speculation) to pvp playing a more prominent role.
Or not.
I'm not being arbitrary.
I can guarantee you they wont, I'm sure their idea is to increase player participation in a niche activity, alienating half that player base straight away would be a spectacular own goal.

O7
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Anyways all aspects of elite are optional. No one aspect has the monopoly of optional.
The first choice one makes each game session is whether to play among other players, or not.
Don't like pvp being called an optional thus singling out pvpers as niche.
Maybe less pointed to say that other players are optional?
We're here to stay...culled somewhat due to a lack of pvp overall. But here nonetheless.
Of course - PvP is possible in the game so it will attract players who like PvP. Whether they choose to continue playing when they realise that PvP is not dominant in any game feature (except CQC, of course) is entirely up to them.
 
To me pvp isn't about ganking that's for sure. I never have never will.
Ok as a nub way back l did it once and almost got kicked out of the squadron I was in at the time. Learned then & there it's a despicable practice killing those who simply wanna go from A to B In open without having to rebuy.
Pvp to me is BETWEEN pvpers. Those folk who wholeheartedly accept the risk and activities PP bgs czs, patrolling gank hotspots etc.
The problem is gankers who pray on the non pvp types give the rest of us a bad name.
Hence me trying desperately to find a fix whereby gankers are singled out and eliminated both by ingame activities and fdev policy, ie crime n punishment.
Till then I suppose we're left with the status quo.
 
Has anyone ever suggested simply having a separate version of Powerplay open only for the PvP centric crowd outside of the bubble? Rat Catcher touched on this by suggesting a 4th mode for open only Powerplay.

By Jove, I think I've got it! If PP 2.0 doesn't offer an acceptable solution for the majority of players in the game, this is the way. The anodyne remedy to our plight!
It's open only Powerplay! But... just... over there!

Richard Garriott, Ultima's creator, is quoted as saying UO was initially a "failed social experiment". To say it failed socially is accurate. One cannot rid player malice from the equation in any game design. It wasn't a failed experiment though because it showed us how to incentivize desired player interactions and attempt to minimize undesired human behavior under anonymity. The best any developer can hope to achieve when designing a game.

Elite's open mode is UO's Felucca. Private group and solo mode are Trammel. UO's Factions PvP system was played in Felucca only. This system wasn't quite as complex as Powerplay but it is essentially the same in concept; a system of competition with rewards. Elite's Powerplay system can be played in both Felucca and Trammel. One side of the playerbase wants it to be a PvP system only, the other does not. This is the root of our problem because..

PvP combat in this game is completely optional.

This is an important talking point repeated often enough in this thread. Non-consensual PvP is not the answer. Successful games in that genre must begin advertised and modelled only as such, essentially becoming consensual by the grace of you playing the game at all. Still many fail, adapt, or remain sparsely populated for various reasons. Successful games with both PvE and PvP usually separate the two. Darrack points this out in another thread when I mention PvP as end-game content. Whether that's a vs mode on a console game or a consensual PvP system in an online game makes no difference. I get the argument that Elite fits the bill here for the non-consensual PvP genre because open mode is in the game, therefore it was advertised as such right? It's Elite: Dangerous! However, it's a valid argument only if solo/pg modes didn't accompany the game at launch, or even if they were added later.

Space Cowboy Online is a another old example I have experience with to point out here. A Starfox-like arcadey gameplay mmo with traditional lvl grinding built entirely on a PvP Nation War mechanic, picking a side when you first start the game. Even that game repeated the same history as UO, adding "safe zone" or Trammel as an option instead of "combat zone" or Felucca, when entering a map. Simply because a large portion of the playerbase unsurprisingly wanted to shoot space bees and level up in peace. Diehard PvP folks argued they were just doing their part for the war effort by ganking and spawn camping players trying to grind. Suffice to say, PvP being optional in Elite is by design and an irrefutable fact.

So why not simply copy and paste a version of the Powerplay system somewhere else separate from the bubble? Have at least two new Indy Powers be the wet dream open only, designed solely to be completely stand alone for direct PvP competition. They should only interact with themselves and not with any of the current Powers. Instead of being friendly, amiable or hostile give them a designation of rivalry to each other to accentuate this narrative. They're so focused on their own sweaty neck-bearded try hard conflicts that the wider struggle a few hundred light years over in the bubble doesn't concern them. I'd also throw all the PP modules on a tech broker and revamp the rewards to not include gear. This removes the currently required shopping grind to a level playing field of access. With the current Powerplay layout in the bubble left to the PvE crowd to play, there should be little to no risk of "cross contamination" and both groups of players can engage with the same system the way they prefer, with or without direct player interaction.

Ok your turn! Why wouldn't this work? The only thing that comes to mind is Sandro in that old stream saying the reason they don't have an ongoing consensual PvP conflict is because it needs to make sense in Elite's story. Surely someone can write a story then?
 
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Has anyone ever suggested simply having a separate version of Powerplay open only for the PvP centric crowd outside of the bubble? Rat Catcher touched on this by suggesting a 4th mode for open only Powerplay.

By Jove, I think I've got it! If PP 2.0 doesn't offer an acceptable solution for the majority of players in the game, this is the way. The anodyne remedy to our plight!
It's open only Powerplay! But... just... over there!

Richard Garriott, Ultima's creator, is quoted as saying UO was initially a "failed social experiment". To say it failed socially is accurate. One cannot rid player malice from the equation in any game design. It wasn't a failed experiment though because it showed us how to incentivize desired player interactions and attempt to minimize undesired human behavior under anonymity. The best any developer can hope to achieve when designing a game.

Elite's open mode is UO's Felucca. Private group and solo mode are Trammel. UO's Factions PvP system was played in Felucca only. This system wasn't quite as complex as Powerplay but it is essentially the same in concept; a system of competition with rewards. Elite's Powerplay system can be played in both Felucca and Trammel. One side of the playerbase wants it to be a PvP system only, the other does not. This is the root of our problem because..

PvP combat in this game is completely optional.

This is an important talking point repeated often enough in this thread. Non-consensual PvP is not the answer. Successful games in that genre must begin advertised and modelled only as such, essentially becoming consensual by the grace of you playing the game at all. Still many fail, adapt, or remain sparsely populated for various reasons. Successful games with both PvE and PvP usually separate the two. Darrack points this out in another thread when I mention PvP as end-game content. Whether that's a vs mode on a console game or a consensual PvP system in an online game makes no difference. I get the argument that Elite fits the bill here for the non-consensual PvP genre because open mode is in the game, therefore it was advertised as such right? It's Elite: Dangerous! However, it's a valid argument only if solo/pg modes didn't accompany the game at launch, or even if they were added later.

Space Cowboy Online is a another old example I have experience with to point out here. A Starfox-like arcadey gameplay mmo with traditional lvl grinding built entirely on a PvP Nation War mechanic, picking a side when you first start the game. Even that game repeated the same history as UO, adding "safe zone" or Trammel as an option instead of "combat zone" or Felucca, when entering a map. Simply because a large portion of the playerbase unsurprisingly wanted to shoot space bees and level up in peace. Diehard PvP folks argued they were just doing their part for the war effort by ganking and spawn camping players trying to grind. Suffice to say, PvP being optional in Elite is by design and an irrefutable fact.

So why not simply copy and paste a version of the Powerplay system somewhere else separate from the bubble? Have at least two new Indy Powers be the wet dream open only, designed solely to be completely stand alone for direct PvP competition. They should only interact with themselves and not with any of the current Powers. Instead of being friendly, amiable or hostile give them a designation of rivalry to each other to accentuate this narrative. They're so focused on their own sweaty neck-bearded try hard conflicts that the wider struggle a few hundred light years over in the bubble doesn't concern them. I'd also throw all the PP modules on a tech broker and revamp the rewards to not include gear. This removes the currently required shopping grind to a level playing field of access. With the current Powerplay layout in the bubble left to the PvE crowd to play, there should be little to no risk of "cross contamination" and both groups of players can engage with the same system the way they prefer, with or without direct player interaction.

Ok your turn! Why wouldn't this work? The only thing that comes to mind is Sandro in that old stream saying the reason they don't have an ongoing consensual PvP conflict is because it needs to make sense in Elite's story. Surely someone can write a story then?
The issue is that all modes effect the BGS/PP, having in effect what would be two Open modes, not sure how that would work.
I really don't think Fdev would make what in a sense would be a stand alone server as it would double the workload.
Also im still sceptical about the amount of folks that would join the server, when it comes to the crunch (as with other games like WoW), PvP servers generally have low populations.

PP2 needs to have meaningful PvP that folks can get involved in and yet doesn't give an advantage or is compulsory, how they achieve this (if they even try) i have no idea.
PP2 still needs to cater for PvE Solo/PG or again numbers and interest will drop.

Whatever they do they wont win this battle, i predict dummy's and prams everywhere.

O7
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Has anyone ever suggested simply having a separate version of Powerplay open only for the PvP centric crowd outside of the bubble?
Yes, several times. It's often opposed by the "nah, we want it all" crew who want the feature either removed from or heavily penalised for players in Solo and Private Groups.
e.g. here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...lo-kitty-island-adventure.552098/post-8630472 (noting that this comment was made before consoles were split from the live game).
One side of the playerbase wants it to be a PvP system only, the other does not. This is the root of our problem because..
Indeed, it does not seem to be considered as a problem by many of those who don't engage in PvP, as:
PvP combat in this game is completely optional.
... and has been in every in-game feature for the lifetime of the game (two competitions for out-of-game prizes notwithstanding).
Ok your turn! Why wouldn't this work? The only thing that comes to mind is Sandro in that old stream saying the reason they don't have an ongoing consensual PvP conflict is because it needs to make sense in Elite's story. Surely someone can write a story then?
If a new bubble of several hundred previously unpopulated systems were to be permit locked to Open only, at a distance from the existing bubble (to leave room for expansion of either the existing bubble or the new permit locked Open only bubble) and seeded with new NPC factions and Powers then I expect it could work just fine - apart from the fact that there are two discrete "Open" modes in the live game, i.e. Horizons Open and Odyssey Open.
 
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