The Open v Solo v Groups thread

My issue is with tautological non-arguments that amount to saying 'things are the way things are', as if that precludes any discussion of change.
Obviously things change, and need to do so over time. Heck, I am not even one of the OG players, and yet in the six years I've been playing the game has changed drastically. I bet if you played it at release, took a ten year break and now came back, you'd hardly recognize it.

I am not adverse to change, but I am wary of changing fundamentals (which I think the accessibility of all features equally in all modes is), and personally I really dislike when people try to take away anything from any of the modes, which at this point in time is mostly the demand to, for lack of a better word, punish players for not playing in open.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
My issue is with tautological non-arguments that amount to saying 'things are the way things are', as if that precludes any discussion of change.
The game was backed the way it is, and has been sold to all players on that basis. To make such a fundamental change now would be considered to be a bait and switch.
And PvP is hardly unique here. Plenty of complaints about NPC interactions, travel times, grind, et al interrupting other content. What is it about PvP that mandates it should be more optional for trade than say, supercruise?
Because it involves forced player interaction, something that Frontier clearly understand is not to the taste of all of the players theyhave sold the game to.
 
Obviously things change, and need to do so over time. Heck, I am not even one of the OG players, and yet in the six years I've been playing the game has changed drastically. I bet if you played it at release, took a ten year break and now came back, you'd hardly recognize it.

Dunno, the core game is still very similar. The UI has had a number of overhauls, but if you remembered how to do the basics from back then, you'd still get back into it quickly... although the auto-undock might surprise you and the ability to plot long routes.
 
Obviously things change, and need to do so over time. Heck, I am not even one of the OG players, and yet in the six years I've been playing the game has changed drastically. I bet if you played it at release, took a ten year break and now came back, you'd hardly recognize it.

I am not adverse to change, but I am wary of changing fundamentals (which I think the accessibility of all features equally in all modes is), and personally I really dislike when people try to take away anything from any of the modes, which at this point in time is mostly the demand to, for lack of a better word, punish players for not playing in open.
I was here since beta. I stopped playing in 2018 and just bought Odyssey. I'm planning to jump back in today. Many things might be different now, but this same argument has been rolling on unchanged since beta. It will never end.
 
Dunno, the core game is still very similar. The UI has had a number of overhauls, but if you remembered how to do the basics from back then, you'd still get back into it quickly... although the auto-undock might surprise you and the ability to plot long routes.
yeah, and that's a good thing - fundamentals should not change. But man, a lot has changed or has been added even since I started.
 
FDEV are highly unlikely to change Powerplay to Open Only at this point, they would've done it at launch of 2.0 if they were going to IMO.

However I still think an oppertunity to enhance the Powerplay platform with open only missions/counter missions exists for PvPers. Think its the best we can hope for at this point TBH.
 
The game was backed the way it is, and has been sold to all players on that basis. To make such a fundamental change now would be considered to be a bait and switch.

Because it involves forced player interaction, something that Frontier clearly understand is not to the taste of all of the players theyhave sold the game to.

The question I'm asking is more basic than that. What is it about forced player interaction (which already exists, in an indirect form, as possibly the least optional mechanism the game has) that makes it fundamentally different from any other forced interactions? How is a change to the mode system more fundamental than a change to any of the major changes that have already occurred?

The flight model and outfitting have significantly changed. We've gone from a spaceship in space only perspective, to ground vehicles, to first person infantry. Engineers, Horizons, and Odyssey were radical changes.

I get that the weight anyone will assign to any change is subjective...which is why it's strange to me that it so often seems to come down to a PvP vs. PvE dichotomy, which personally strikes me as an artificial one, especially in a purely multiplayer game that has never had provision to work without an internet connection or MMO style player contributions.

Dunno, the core game is still very similar. The UI has had a number of overhauls, but if you remembered how to do the basics from back then, you'd still get back into it quickly... although the auto-undock might surprise you and the ability to plot long routes.

Ships don't react to control inputs the same way they used to. All those nearly hard limits on velocities were added with the Gamma, after you and I started playing, and they were even more impactful to the flight model and how I used my ships than things like the directional velocity caps of FA Off (which didn't exist when I started) or even Engineering. Ships didn't 'stall' prior to this addition when approaching their much softer velocity caps and those velocity limits could be exceeded on a whim through basic trichording. The single most fundamental aspect of a spaceflight game, the flight model, never felt the same after their heavy handed 'fix' for this--they didn't scale thrust to stay within the confines of the main engine/peak forward vector, they dramatically kicked up the forced negative acceleration at the soft cap, to make it nearly a hard cap (though with things like gravity assist we can still prove it's not a hard cap)...it's like hitting a wall when performing maneuvers near the velocity limits and it feels damn weird, to this day. Even post-release there have been multiple, often undocumented, changes to aspects of the flight models, generally on a per ship basis. There are several ships that can't do things they used to be able to do, and some that can do much more.

The addition of wings and wing beacons in 1.2 changed combat and supercruise travel to a degree not repeated until Engineering and SCO. Around the same time upkeep costs were reduced by a factor of ten or so, which made it much easier to field larger ships and accumulate credits.

Horizons added a whole new mode of play, further altered SC travel (one can't be interdicted in orbital cruise, but can still observe the SC instance), and introduced synthesis, which was a dramatic change to attrition mechanisms. Prior to 2.0, what you had when launching from a station was all you got until you docked again. Post 2.0, if you liked burning around in the SRV, ammunition and most other consumables (other than SCBs) were never an issue again. This reshaped combat and exploration.

Sometime around Horizons, the network model, or perhaps it's underlying infrastructure, started to change significantly as well. I used to be able to reliably drop out of SC within a few km of my desired point (I'm talking about manually, with no destination lock)--precision enough to make it a meaningful tactical ability, even in crowded instances. This changed to the point that one is lucky to land within 30km of where they attempt now.

Engineering's implications should be obvious, but suffice to say I consider it the largest change to the game since the Beta 1.x to 2.x update. Nothing was ever the same again.

Changes to heat mechanisms, even prior to Engineering, significantly reshaped stealth and depreciated popular tactics that were, in my view, contributors to balance. The nature and degree of NPC challenges has generally been softened and made more optional/more avoidable as time as gone on.

I almost forgot Fleet Carriers. I try to forget Fleet Carriers.

There are far too many changes to try to list them all. Every decimal point update brings them and the cumulative effect is profound, even within a single major update/season.

The way I see it, the game is only superficially similar to what it once was. The core has transformed so profoundly in the time I've played that the UI is about the most consistent part. Imagine porting a game from an early Unreal engine to an Id Tech engine of similar era, you could make them look almost identical and try to give them identical gameplay mechanisms, but they'd feel completely different. That's past and current Elite: Dangerous.

Of course, the players have changed as well, and that's possibly the most profound change of all.

I still enjoy quite a few aspects of the game, but if you showed me what Elite: Dangerous would become back in 2014, I never would have backed it. The game has died a half dozen times, to be replaced by a generally inferior incarnation at each step.
 
The question I'm asking is more basic than that. What is it about forced player interaction (which already exists, in an indirect form, as possibly the least optional mechanism the game has) that makes it fundamentally different from any other forced interactions? How is a change to the mode system more fundamental than a change to any of the major changes that have already occurred?

The flight model and outfitting have significantly changed. We've gone from a spaceship in space only perspective, to ground vehicles, to first person infantry. Engineers, Horizons, and Odyssey were radical changes.

I get that the weight anyone will assign to any change is subjective...which is why it's strange to me that it so often seems to come down to a PvP vs. PvE dichotomy, which personally strikes me as an artificial one, especially in a purely multiplayer game that has never had provision to work without an internet connection or MMO style player contributions.



Ships don't react to control inputs the same way they used to. All those nearly hard limits on velocities were added with the Gamma, after you and I started playing, and they were even more impactful to the flight model and how I used my ships than things like the directional velocity caps of FA Off (which didn't exist when I started) or even Engineering. Ships didn't 'stall' prior to this addition when approaching their much softer velocity caps and those velocity limits could be exceeded on a whim through basic trichording. The single most fundamental aspect of a spaceflight game, the flight model, never felt the same after their heavy handed 'fix' for this--they didn't scale thrust to stay within the confines of the main engine/peak forward vector, they dramatically kicked up the forced negative acceleration at the soft cap, to make it nearly a hard cap (though with things like gravity assist we can still prove it's not a hard cap)...it's like hitting a wall when performing maneuvers near the velocity limits and it feels damn weird, to this day. Even post-release there have been multiple, often undocumented, changes to aspects of the flight models, generally on a per ship basis. There are several ships that can't do things they used to be able to do, and some that can do much more.

The addition of wings and wing beacons in 1.2 changed combat and supercruise travel to a degree not repeated until Engineering and SCO. Around the same time upkeep costs were reduced by a factor of ten or so, which made it much easier to field larger ships and accumulate credits.

Horizons added a whole new mode of play, further altered SC travel (one can't be interdicted in orbital cruise, but can still observe the SC instance), and introduced synthesis, which was a dramatic change to attrition mechanisms. Prior to 2.0, what you had when launching from a station was all you got until you docked again. Post 2.0, if you liked burning around in the SRV, ammunition and most other consumables (other than SCBs) were never an issue again. This reshaped combat and exploration.

Sometime around Horizons, the network model, or perhaps it's underlying infrastructure, started to change significantly as well. I used to be able to reliably drop out of SC within a few km of my desired point (I'm talking about manually, with no destination lock)--precision enough to make it a meaningful tactical ability, even in crowded instances. This changed to the point that one is lucky to land within 30km of where they attempt now.

Engineering's implications should be obvious, but suffice to say I consider it the largest change to the game since the Beta 1.x to 2.x update. Nothing was ever the same again.

Changes to heat mechanisms, even prior to Engineering, significantly reshaped stealth and depreciated popular tactics that were, in my view, contributors to balance. The nature and degree of NPC challenges has generally been softened and made more optional/more avoidable as time as gone on.

I almost forgot Fleet Carriers. I try to forget Fleet Carriers.

There are far too many changes to try to list them all. Every decimal point update brings them and the cumulative effect is profound, even within a single major update/season.

The way I see it, the game is only superficially similar to what it once was. The core has transformed so profoundly in the time I've played that the UI is about the most consistent part. Imagine porting a game from an early Unreal engine to an Id Tech engine of similar era, you could make them look almost identical and try to give them identical gameplay mechanisms, but they'd feel completely different. That's past and current Elite: Dangerous.

Of course, the players have changed as well, and that's possibly the most profound change of all.

I still enjoy quite a few aspects of the game, but if you showed me what Elite: Dangerous would become back in 2014, I never would have backed it. The game has died a half dozen times, to be replaced by a generally inferior incarnation at each step.

I think you're over-complicating my point. I simply said it was similar enough that someone familiar with the game from the early days could jump into the game and quickly get back into it. Not that there weren't significant changes.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
The question I'm asking is more basic than that. What is it about forced player interaction (which already exists, in an indirect form, as possibly the least optional mechanism the game has) that makes it fundamentally different from any other forced interactions? How is a change to the mode system more fundamental than a change to any of the major changes that have already occurred?

The flight model and outfitting have significantly changed. We've gone from a spaceship in space only perspective, to ground vehicles, to first person infantry. Engineers, Horizons, and Odyssey were radical changes.
.... because, with the modes, no one needs to have their game time wasted by one or more of the groups of self styled "emergent content delivery specialists" that would form around any Open only game feature.

Put differently no one needs to play among those who they don't find it fun to play among.

.... and indirect asynchronous competition through pan modal game features is not a personal attack, it's simply playing the game.
 
The question I'm asking is more basic than that. What is it about forced player interaction (which already exists, in an indirect form, as possibly the least optional mechanism the game has) that makes it fundamentally different from any other forced interactions? How is a change to the mode system more fundamental than a change to any of the major changes that have already occurred?
...
In a nutshell, I think this whole thread is about a RL issue, not a game design issue.

Basically, some of us feel we're faced with people saying, "Play the way I want you to, not how you want to." Having bought the game, playing my way is the rational choice. It's a choice outside of any particular game mechanics.

If there are people who don't want to play Open, incentives or withdrawal of features will only be tinkering and won't change what they want. The only way to get everyone to play Open is to exclude all the others from the game; and then Open won't be any more populated than it already is.

Disclosure: I play all the modes at various times, according to what I want to do.
 
In a nutshell, I think this whole thread is about a RL issue, not a game design issue.
100% this, it would appear that accepting game features as they exist is 'challenging' for some, as they have convinced themselves that the game (and other players) is supposed to conform with their vision of what the game should be. (often accompanied by soft insults to those who actually play the game as it actually is...)

It is a shame really, folk like me just get on enjoying playing, rather than fretting over what the game isn't.
 
I think you're over-complicating my point. I simply said it was similar enough that someone familiar with the game from the early days could jump into the game and quickly get back into it. Not that there weren't significant changes.

I don't think the core game is all that similar to what it was.

Sure it's similar enough that someone familiar with it could probably get back into quickly, but they could also get into almost any open-world space sim quickly. I was able to pick up ED very quickly because I had played games very similar to it in the past. I can pick up almost any video game, short of rhythm games, very quickly because I've probably had experience with something similar. Doesn't mean these games don't differ greatly in some very fundamental aspects.

Making changes to the flight model or adding new features is not remotely the same as compelling people to do PvP when they don't want to.

I'm sure I'm not the only one that thinks changes to the flight model of a first-person fantasy spaceflight simulation is more profound than the presence of PvP or not.

After all, even as an exclusively Open player, PvP is generally a rare and entirely optional thing that I usually have to seek out, especially in recent years. The degradations to the flight model tick me off every time my CMDR gets in the cockpit.

It would be more like if FD announced, "Elite: Dangerous is now a racing game. You must win at least one ground vehicle race every week in order to keep your licence to fly."

No, it wouldn't.

Even if the entire game were restricted to one inclusive mode, with no ability to bar direct encounters with others, it would not change the genre of the game, nor would it even mandate direct PvP. It would probably be wise to learn basic escape and evasion if one was intent on playing in popular areas under such a system, but the existence of PvP does not in any way mandate any level of personal performance to continue playing.

Put differently no one needs to play among those who they don't find it fun to play among

Of course they do.

Every single player who is out there contributing to the setting via mechanisms I don't feel should exist, especially if I think they're abusing those mechanisms, is someone I don't find it particularly fun to play among. I have no ability to play this game and opt out of these interactions...and the game wouldn't work, even to the extent it does now, if I did.

indirect asynchronous competition through pan modal game features is not a personal attack, it's simply playing the game.

Same goes for direct PvP, up to and including ganking, or anything else that's within the game's rules.[/QUOTE]
 
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No, it wouldn't.

Even if the entire game were restricted to one inclusive mode, with no ability to bar direct encounters with others, it would not change the genre of the game, nor would it even mandate direct PvP. It would probably be wise to learn basic escape and evasion if one was intent on playing in popular areas under such a system, but the existence of PvP does not in any way mandate any level of personal performance to continue playing.
[/QUOTE]
Mate, I can escape and evade just fine. I got ganked, I figured out what changes I needed to make so it wouldn't happen again, and the issue went away. I have no problem with being attacked every now and then. I don't even mind throwing down on occasion when the mood strikes me and I'm in the right ship (though I usually lose because it's not my thing).

But the reason I stopped flying in Open and moved entirely to private groups is that any time you go to a populated system like a CG, you get attacked constantly. There's no piracy, no RP. Nobody even bothers to ask if you would like a duel. Just crowds of idiots trying to blow you up every 30 seconds for no apparent reason while you're minding your own business. It's relentless and unpleasant. I no longer wished to deal with it.

I am in some ways the platonic ideal of a PvPer's PvE player, and it eventually drove me away. There's plenty of people less likely to tolerate it than me. If Open-only PP or whatever became a thing, PvE players would simply not do it. It wouldn't solve your issue.
 
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Mate, I can escape and evade just fine. I got ganked, I figured out what changes I needed to make so it wouldn't happen again, and the issue went away. I have no problem with being attacked every now and then. I don't even mind throwing down on occasion when the mood strikes me and I'm in the right ship (though I usually lose because it's not my thing).

But the reason I stopped flying in Open and moved entirely to private groups is that any time you go to a populated system like a CG, you get attacked constantly. There's no piracy, no RP. Nobody even bothers to ask if you would like a duel. Just crowds of idiots trying to blow you up every 30 seconds for no apparent reason while you're minding your own business. It's relentless and unpleasant. I no longer wished to deal with it.

I am in some ways the platonic ideal of a PvPers PvE player, and it eventually drove me away. There's plenty of people less likely to tolerate it than me. If Open-only PP or whatever became a thing, PvE players would simply not do it.

And how does any of that suggest an Open only game would be "like if FD announced, "Elite: Dangerous is now a racing game. You must win at least one ground vehicle race every week in order to keep your licence to fly.""?

No one is forcing you to participate in CGs. Frontier's (semi)regularly scheduled preordained plot devices aren't required for anything, except maybe reliable non-pitched PvP encounters. Personally, I keep my CMDR well away from CG systems, unless I'm actively looking for trouble--the rest of the content isn't any different from what I can get almost anywhere else--or the CG just happens to land in an area of special concern to my CMDR (in which case he's screwed anyway...the influence tsunami is going to ruin everything, no matter how many people he shoots down/drives off).

It wouldn't solve your issue.

What issue are you referring to?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Of course they do.

Every single player who is out there contributing to the setting via mechanisms I don't feel should exist, especially if I think they're abusing those mechanisms, is someone I don't find it particularly fun to play among. I have no ability to play this game and opt out of these interactions...and the game wouldn't work, even to the extent it does now, if I did.
Of course - because we all bought a game where all players experience and affect the mode shared game features while playing among other players is an optional extra.

Noting that some players can't accept these fundamental game design decisions over a decade after the game was launched.
Same goes for direct PvP, up to and including ganking, or anything else that's within the game's rules.
It is, for those who choose to play among others. For those who eschew itsiPvP, not so much, or even at all.
 
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