The Planetary landing and planetside missions discussion Thread
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[Discussion] Planetary landing and planetside missions
Warning, wall of text incoming!
Planetside gameplay is probably a long way away, and it's still very early to talk about it, but many are already discussing the subject on the forums. So why not share our views on the matter in a dedicated topic, and maybe give the developpers a few ideas in the process ? While they probably already have a pretty clear idea of where they're headed, chances are they haven't yet decided on a detailed game design, so I guess it's as good a time as any to start discussing it
So I'll start with the way I imagine planetary landings could be, taking into account technical limitations and the ideas' doability.
- Landing on lifeless planets (with or without an atmosphere) :
I imagine you could approach these planets in free flight, and would be able to fly around them as close to the ground as you want and land on any flat terrain you would find.
Once you'd touch down, I imagine something pretty close to what the first Mass Effect did with uncharted worlds. You'd have a buggy and could drive it around, except this time the playable area wouldn't be limited in size, it would be the entire planet. Each player or group of players would have their own instance upon approaching the planet, to avoid getting shot down by a other player in their ship.
Regarding interactions and things to do, you could have a scanner that would lead you to potential resources sites. On your way, you could come across the planetside equivalent of unidentified signal sources : random events such as ship or drone wreckages, traces of lifeforms you could analyze, pirate ambushes... Also, some mission objective you'd have gotten on a space station could require you to explore a certain area of a planet to find a resource, retrieve or salvage parts of a downed ship...
Gameplay wise, you and your buggy could have a jetpack to insure you wouldn't get stuck in a crevice.
- Planets with atmosphere and life :
The ideas above could be applied, with the added possibility of analyzing new types of plants and creatures, and fighting or hunting hostile creatures.
- Early civilizations planets :
Assuming those exist in the Elite universe, it's probably not possible to render them in a believable way, with all the variety and the interactions it would require ; maybe galactic law would simply prevent you from interfering with young civilizations...
- Small planetary colonies :
I imagine those the way I described planets with atmosphere and life, with the addition of outposts. Like those in space, these would be small stations where you could land and trade. You could land far from the outpost and explore the planet if you chose to, but landing on the pad would give you access to the usual services.
It could possibly be a place to loan a bigger land vehicle, and to take some planetside missions : hunting a certain creature, rescuing someone, finding a specific plant or resource. Mission types could vary depending on the type of oupost : scientific research, military base, pirate base...
- Planets with advanced civilization and technology :
Now comes the trickiest part, the one that holds everyone's hopes and fears : how can they make potentially thousands of planet-sized cities that are believable and detailed to today's standards? Here is the way I see it.
It would not be possible to land anywhere you want on the planet. You would have to request docking permission, then you would have to fly to a precise location where you could land. Possibly, there could be several locations to choose from when requesting landing permission. Depending on technical limitations, it could be possible or not to fly around freely, getting as close to the buildings as you'd dare. If free flight is impossible on those planets for technical reasons, you'd have to request landing permission from space, and then follow a landing vector, and would be shot down for violating airspace if you strayed too far from the designated path.
Upon landing and leaving your ship, you would have a limited area to explore, with access to shops, missions, bars... Something like the hubs in Mass Effect 2, or what they seem to be doing with Star Citizen. I don't think we will need vast cities to explore like in GTA, as it will be impossible to create places as enticing as those cities with a procedurally generated environment. Keeping the playable areas small will ensure they are filled with things to do, and that each corner of the area has its use. The player would move on foot. It could be possible to take a train or a shuttle to another hub on the planet, requiring you to come back when you'd want to retrieve your ship.
Possibly, procedurally generated "dungeons" could be the setup for certain missions. Once again I will take Mass Effect 2 as an example, where the hubs are accessible freely, but the missions areas (dungeons) are only accessible while you are on their specific mission. You could take the aforementioned train or shuttle to go to the mission area.
Missions on such planets could consist on stealing an item or information from a place, assassinating a target, wiping an area clear of criminals... It would be interesting if missions taken on a planet could sometimes lead you to another planet and not always be local.
Regarding NPC interactions, I'm not sure about voice acting... while it's now a staple in just about every game, so far in ED communication with NPCs has been entirely text based. Considering this, I believe ED could pull off text conversations with NPCs while on planets. These dialogues could look like they did in Morrowind, with multiple choices and little (or no) voice acting. This would open up many possibilities for procedurally generated dialogue : rumors, mission hints, comments on the system's political situation, comments on the player's status or reputation... voiced dialogue would become redundant extremely quickly, and immersion breaking when you'd hear the same sentence with the same voice on two different planets.
The use of weapons would be forbidden on hubs, to avoid game-breaking abuses. Mission areas would be the place to use them.
Planetside gameplay would open up a whole new world of possibilities, and I hope missions will be more complex and involving than they are now. I'm sure procedurally generated missions could be great fun to play : taking you to a planet to talk to NPCs in order to track down a target, who you would then fight in space. Or beating up a pirate ship in space and then follow it to its base, where you would land and infiltrate to steal data or kill the leader... possibilities are endless and fascinating.
So, what do you think of these ideas ? What is your take on planetary landings ?
Warning, wall of text incoming!
Planetside gameplay is probably a long way away, and it's still very early to talk about it, but many are already discussing the subject on the forums. So why not share our views on the matter in a dedicated topic, and maybe give the developpers a few ideas in the process ? While they probably already have a pretty clear idea of where they're headed, chances are they haven't yet decided on a detailed game design, so I guess it's as good a time as any to start discussing it
So I'll start with the way I imagine planetary landings could be, taking into account technical limitations and the ideas' doability.
- Landing on lifeless planets (with or without an atmosphere) :
I imagine you could approach these planets in free flight, and would be able to fly around them as close to the ground as you want and land on any flat terrain you would find.
Once you'd touch down, I imagine something pretty close to what the first Mass Effect did with uncharted worlds. You'd have a buggy and could drive it around, except this time the playable area wouldn't be limited in size, it would be the entire planet. Each player or group of players would have their own instance upon approaching the planet, to avoid getting shot down by a other player in their ship.
Regarding interactions and things to do, you could have a scanner that would lead you to potential resources sites. On your way, you could come across the planetside equivalent of unidentified signal sources : random events such as ship or drone wreckages, traces of lifeforms you could analyze, pirate ambushes... Also, some mission objective you'd have gotten on a space station could require you to explore a certain area of a planet to find a resource, retrieve or salvage parts of a downed ship...
Gameplay wise, you and your buggy could have a jetpack to insure you wouldn't get stuck in a crevice.
- Planets with atmosphere and life :
The ideas above could be applied, with the added possibility of analyzing new types of plants and creatures, and fighting or hunting hostile creatures.
- Early civilizations planets :
Assuming those exist in the Elite universe, it's probably not possible to render them in a believable way, with all the variety and the interactions it would require ; maybe galactic law would simply prevent you from interfering with young civilizations...
- Small planetary colonies :
I imagine those the way I described planets with atmosphere and life, with the addition of outposts. Like those in space, these would be small stations where you could land and trade. You could land far from the outpost and explore the planet if you chose to, but landing on the pad would give you access to the usual services.
It could possibly be a place to loan a bigger land vehicle, and to take some planetside missions : hunting a certain creature, rescuing someone, finding a specific plant or resource. Mission types could vary depending on the type of oupost : scientific research, military base, pirate base...
- Planets with advanced civilization and technology :
Now comes the trickiest part, the one that holds everyone's hopes and fears : how can they make potentially thousands of planet-sized cities that are believable and detailed to today's standards? Here is the way I see it.
It would not be possible to land anywhere you want on the planet. You would have to request docking permission, then you would have to fly to a precise location where you could land. Possibly, there could be several locations to choose from when requesting landing permission. Depending on technical limitations, it could be possible or not to fly around freely, getting as close to the buildings as you'd dare. If free flight is impossible on those planets for technical reasons, you'd have to request landing permission from space, and then follow a landing vector, and would be shot down for violating airspace if you strayed too far from the designated path.
Upon landing and leaving your ship, you would have a limited area to explore, with access to shops, missions, bars... Something like the hubs in Mass Effect 2, or what they seem to be doing with Star Citizen. I don't think we will need vast cities to explore like in GTA, as it will be impossible to create places as enticing as those cities with a procedurally generated environment. Keeping the playable areas small will ensure they are filled with things to do, and that each corner of the area has its use. The player would move on foot. It could be possible to take a train or a shuttle to another hub on the planet, requiring you to come back when you'd want to retrieve your ship.
Possibly, procedurally generated "dungeons" could be the setup for certain missions. Once again I will take Mass Effect 2 as an example, where the hubs are accessible freely, but the missions areas (dungeons) are only accessible while you are on their specific mission. You could take the aforementioned train or shuttle to go to the mission area.
Missions on such planets could consist on stealing an item or information from a place, assassinating a target, wiping an area clear of criminals... It would be interesting if missions taken on a planet could sometimes lead you to another planet and not always be local.
Regarding NPC interactions, I'm not sure about voice acting... while it's now a staple in just about every game, so far in ED communication with NPCs has been entirely text based. Considering this, I believe ED could pull off text conversations with NPCs while on planets. These dialogues could look like they did in Morrowind, with multiple choices and little (or no) voice acting. This would open up many possibilities for procedurally generated dialogue : rumors, mission hints, comments on the system's political situation, comments on the player's status or reputation... voiced dialogue would become redundant extremely quickly, and immersion breaking when you'd hear the same sentence with the same voice on two different planets.
The use of weapons would be forbidden on hubs, to avoid game-breaking abuses. Mission areas would be the place to use them.
Planetside gameplay would open up a whole new world of possibilities, and I hope missions will be more complex and involving than they are now. I'm sure procedurally generated missions could be great fun to play : taking you to a planet to talk to NPCs in order to track down a target, who you would then fight in space. Or beating up a pirate ship in space and then follow it to its base, where you would land and infiltrate to steal data or kill the leader... possibilities are endless and fascinating.
So, what do you think of these ideas ? What is your take on planetary landings ?
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It's going to be difficult, especially atmospheric combat and big cities.
I see most low pop planets somewhat like in Aliens the directors cut, small terraforming communities or mining communities etc, these would be quite easy to do considering the task of creating mega cities.
I can see mega cities being like loading into an entirely different game , you enter atmosphere land at the docking station in the city and then it would load into a GTA4 type game and you go about your business.
Other than that they will have to make the big cities have enclosed areas you can use like was seen in the SC demo.
It's a mammoth undertaking, I can't wait to see what they come up with.
I see most low pop planets somewhat like in Aliens the directors cut, small terraforming communities or mining communities etc, these would be quite easy to do considering the task of creating mega cities.
I can see mega cities being like loading into an entirely different game , you enter atmosphere land at the docking station in the city and then it would load into a GTA4 type game and you go about your business.
Other than that they will have to make the big cities have enclosed areas you can use like was seen in the SC demo.
It's a mammoth undertaking, I can't wait to see what they come up with.
I don't know if it's possible but I'd like to see something like player owned apartments both on planets and stations. Also something like jobs, Shop Owner, or Bartender, Ship Mechanic and things of that nature. It'll make it even more of a world you live in than a game if thing like this was in the game in some way.
If I could own a shop on Azeban that sold like ship upgrades I'd enjoy that. Maybe even make it possible to be robbed by other players and NPCs. Maybe add a way tie in hiring players or NPCs to resupply your shop. Or you yourself need to do that.
As for things like apartments, give us like things like radios and games to play, an arcade of the original Elite among things like pool or a poker table, All things you need to buy for the place of course.
Odd Jobs could be a cool thing to add once planetary landing is possible. Also the current jobs should be tied in to all this.
Assuming ANY of what i said can be done within the engine of the game.
If I could own a shop on Azeban that sold like ship upgrades I'd enjoy that. Maybe even make it possible to be robbed by other players and NPCs. Maybe add a way tie in hiring players or NPCs to resupply your shop. Or you yourself need to do that.
As for things like apartments, give us like things like radios and games to play, an arcade of the original Elite among things like pool or a poker table, All things you need to buy for the place of course.
Odd Jobs could be a cool thing to add once planetary landing is possible. Also the current jobs should be tied in to all this.
Assuming ANY of what i said can be done within the engine of the game.
It's an area of the game that is full of wonderful possibilities and potential disappointment, so I'm sure we will discuss it for years to come as the expansions are developed.
Some thoughts:
I'm not worried so much about the variety and quality of the procedurally generated stuff, as that can always be improved over time, but some things need to be right from the start.
How good will the physics be, considering the range of possible conditions from one planet to another? - Gravity/light/heat will be the biggest differences on airless worlds, but with an atmosphere it gets more complicated.
I would argue that a good physics engine is a must for once we get out of our ships.
NPC interaction is a massively important area. For quests to happen naturally there needs to be real motivations/emotions - greed, lust, politics, family etc. The more detailed the NPCs are the better imo (This needs to be more developed in the current bulletin board/contacts screens too).
I know its difficult, but I want huge caves and overhangs!
Science! I would love to, for example, set off explosives to record seismic waves to find what the planet is made of. Or drill a core sample of rock or ice. Maybe that is a bit too 'Kerbal Space Program' though.
So long as I can take pictures of amazing landscapes and record (and see) the conditions outside my ship (wind speed, temp etc.) I'll be very happy with the expansions
Some thoughts:
I'm not worried so much about the variety and quality of the procedurally generated stuff, as that can always be improved over time, but some things need to be right from the start.
How good will the physics be, considering the range of possible conditions from one planet to another? - Gravity/light/heat will be the biggest differences on airless worlds, but with an atmosphere it gets more complicated.
I would argue that a good physics engine is a must for once we get out of our ships.
NPC interaction is a massively important area. For quests to happen naturally there needs to be real motivations/emotions - greed, lust, politics, family etc. The more detailed the NPCs are the better imo (This needs to be more developed in the current bulletin board/contacts screens too).
I know its difficult, but I want huge caves and overhangs!
Science! I would love to, for example, set off explosives to record seismic waves to find what the planet is made of. Or drill a core sample of rock or ice. Maybe that is a bit too 'Kerbal Space Program' though.
So long as I can take pictures of amazing landscapes and record (and see) the conditions outside my ship (wind speed, temp etc.) I'll be very happy with the expansions
I can understand the idea is appealing but the game would become unmanageably large if you could actually land on planets. I'd prefer to be able to get out in stations and walk around them. As part of my real-life travel I really enjoy the airports often as much as the cities I'm visiting, so something that replicates that buzz of activity would be exciting.
OTOH flying through atmospheres of planets with procedurally drawn geography and autogen (maybe like Outerra engine) would be very immersive as well.
OTOH flying through atmospheres of planets with procedurally drawn geography and autogen (maybe like Outerra engine) would be very immersive as well.
But, it IS coming afaik. I dont know how it will be done but they are going to let us land on planets.
I love the fact that they are giving us planetary landings, and it's one of the reasons why I bought into Premium Beta, so I'm constantly thinking about it... but it's hard to wrap my head around the concept. It is a massive undertaking I'd imagine.
I look at games like No Man's Sky which, last I checked, is being developed by a handful of people and although the art style is far different it's probably a good indication on what will be possible in Elite.
The key will be how to make it interesting enough to warrant a visit, but not so engrossing that you never want to leave! There needs to be some restrictions to force the player back into space otherwise it's no longer a space sim. The ideas are great, and if they can pull off half of what they have promised I think we'll be pleasantly surprised.
I'd like to see salvaging equipment or jobs to give players access to dead ships/stations. I can see a group of players discovering a lifeless outpost caught in orbit around a frozen moon, and maybe some valuable high class rare weapons/armor could be discovered and restored for personal use
I look at games like No Man's Sky which, last I checked, is being developed by a handful of people and although the art style is far different it's probably a good indication on what will be possible in Elite.
The key will be how to make it interesting enough to warrant a visit, but not so engrossing that you never want to leave! There needs to be some restrictions to force the player back into space otherwise it's no longer a space sim. The ideas are great, and if they can pull off half of what they have promised I think we'll be pleasantly surprised.
I'd like to see salvaging equipment or jobs to give players access to dead ships/stations. I can see a group of players discovering a lifeless outpost caught in orbit around a frozen moon, and maybe some valuable high class rare weapons/armor could be discovered and restored for personal use
@OP
A wall of text indeed, but a darn good one. I agree 100% with your ideas and would love to see the game developed this way.
Have some rep
A wall of text indeed, but a darn good one. I agree 100% with your ideas and would love to see the game developed this way.
Have some rep
I think the thing for me about planets is that it's the one thing that Science Fiction almost always glosses over.. the sheer scale and variety of environments and landscapes that just one planet (earth for example) can have means that to make a planet feel 'right' is going to be very very hard.
This past year we've seen previews of another game, No Mans Sky, which teases us with amazing visuals and potential. Then more recently, Space Engine is showing large scale landscapes, planetary auroras and such that look beautiful.. at a slightly larger scale.
Personally I would love it if somehow Frontier could go to these guys and say 'hey, lets do a deal' and licence these technologies for use in Elite, combining the best of what the world has into one ultimate game.
If they cant do this then all I can hope for is that the planets get the same love and attention that the larger scale universe has. Weather, atmosphere, rain, lightning, sand storms, cyclones, oceans, forests, deserts, glaciers and of course fjords!
EDIT - ahh yes, and I was forgetting... I grew up reading the books on the Terran Trade Authority (Stewart Cowley) and these books gave me visions of what I'd expect in any sci-fi world. In particular Spacewreck: Ghostships and Derelicts of Space ( http://amzn.com/0896730220 ) has some fantastic artwork and if I could play a game where landing on a planet or cruising through space I had the chance to find sights like these then I'd be in heaven.
This past year we've seen previews of another game, No Mans Sky, which teases us with amazing visuals and potential. Then more recently, Space Engine is showing large scale landscapes, planetary auroras and such that look beautiful.. at a slightly larger scale.
Personally I would love it if somehow Frontier could go to these guys and say 'hey, lets do a deal' and licence these technologies for use in Elite, combining the best of what the world has into one ultimate game.
If they cant do this then all I can hope for is that the planets get the same love and attention that the larger scale universe has. Weather, atmosphere, rain, lightning, sand storms, cyclones, oceans, forests, deserts, glaciers and of course fjords!
EDIT - ahh yes, and I was forgetting... I grew up reading the books on the Terran Trade Authority (Stewart Cowley) and these books gave me visions of what I'd expect in any sci-fi world. In particular Spacewreck: Ghostships and Derelicts of Space ( http://amzn.com/0896730220 ) has some fantastic artwork and if I could play a game where landing on a planet or cruising through space I had the chance to find sights like these then I'd be in heaven.
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There is a guy who already made an universe like this and more where you can go exploring also the planetary sides. But that is all for the moment, no fighting, trading, etc....
Just enjoy the sceneries, it is pretty amazing what he did.
Check http://en.spaceengine.org/
A review: http://sploid.gizmodo.com/holy-crap...-simulator-makes-me-wan-1648625304/+caseychan
Maybe they can hire him for developping the planetary side.
Just enjoy the sceneries, it is pretty amazing what he did.
Check http://en.spaceengine.org/
A review: http://sploid.gizmodo.com/holy-crap...-simulator-makes-me-wan-1648625304/+caseychan
Maybe they can hire him for developping the planetary side.
There are comments here about limitations, making the game-world in-feasibly large and so on. Just bear in mind, this content will be procedurally generated. Once the artwork and assets are created (trees, grass, sand, water, buildings, animals, vehicles and so on) and are done so in a way that can allow procedural alterations (grass changes colour, trees alter their shape and foliage depending on atmosphere, gravitation, sun type and so on) and Earth's major cities and prominent landscapes are accurately mapped out - within reason - the remainder of the galaxy, and the vast majority of the remainder of Earth, will be generated automatically, based on a set of laws, rules and relationships.
This is already possible and already done to an enormous detail in No Man's Sky, with planetary sized planets.
So I say let's not talk about limitations, let's talk about limitless possibilities
I want to fly down to the surface and zip around mountains, blast over oceans and navigate busy, vast skyscapes in a city. I want to touch down in the country-side and walk through a forest, hunting for new life-forms that my scanner picked up in the region, then sell my information to others.
I want to find a new civilisation that's hostile and start a war. Or find a peaceful civilisation that are being attacked by a hostile species and help them fight back. Or find a war between the inhabitants and choose a side. Or trade between cities. Or transport civilians from one country to another. Or find a mining colony and place my claim. Or be chased away with my tail between my legs because the inhabitants are aggressive and don't want me there.
I want to buy property in a beautiful location with a view of a 1,000m waterfall down the side of a mountain ten times the size of Everest, so I can have my own star-port on a planet I call home. At least until I find another one that's even more amazing.
I want to find advanced settlements and see them grow into a city, then make their first steps into space.
I want caves, valleys, forests, deserts, mining plots, conflict zones, espionage plots and dinosaurs, wild animals, sea-life and things we've never seen before.
It's all possible.
This is already possible and already done to an enormous detail in No Man's Sky, with planetary sized planets.
So I say let's not talk about limitations, let's talk about limitless possibilities
I want to fly down to the surface and zip around mountains, blast over oceans and navigate busy, vast skyscapes in a city. I want to touch down in the country-side and walk through a forest, hunting for new life-forms that my scanner picked up in the region, then sell my information to others.
I want to find a new civilisation that's hostile and start a war. Or find a peaceful civilisation that are being attacked by a hostile species and help them fight back. Or find a war between the inhabitants and choose a side. Or trade between cities. Or transport civilians from one country to another. Or find a mining colony and place my claim. Or be chased away with my tail between my legs because the inhabitants are aggressive and don't want me there.
I want to buy property in a beautiful location with a view of a 1,000m waterfall down the side of a mountain ten times the size of Everest, so I can have my own star-port on a planet I call home. At least until I find another one that's even more amazing.
I want to find advanced settlements and see them grow into a city, then make their first steps into space.
I want caves, valleys, forests, deserts, mining plots, conflict zones, espionage plots and dinosaurs, wild animals, sea-life and things we've never seen before.
It's all possible.
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Holey shmoley - if they can replicate planetary graphics like this guy has done I'll be one (even more) happy customer!
ED make it so
(please)
It's an area of the game that is full of wonderful possibilities and potential disappointment, so I'm sure we will discuss it for years to come as the expansions are developed.
Some thoughts:
I'm not worried so much about the variety and quality of the procedurally generated stuff, as that can always be improved over time, but some things need to be right from the start.
How good will the physics be, considering the range of possible conditions from one planet to another? - Gravity/light/heat will be the biggest differences on airless worlds, but with an atmosphere it gets more complicated.
I would argue that a good physics engine is a must for once we get out of our ships.
NPC interaction is a massively important area. For quests to happen naturally there needs to be real motivations/emotions - greed, lust, politics, family etc. The more detailed the NPCs are the better imo (This needs to be more developed in the current bulletin board/contacts screens too).
I know its difficult, but I want huge caves and overhangs!
Science! I would love to, for example, set off explosives to record seismic waves to find what the planet is made of. Or drill a core sample of rock or ice. Maybe that is a bit too 'Kerbal Space Program' though.
So long as I can take pictures of amazing landscapes and record (and see) the conditions outside my ship (wind speed, temp etc.) I'll be very happy with the expansions
Caves is not a big problem, read this blog from voxel farm.
http://procworld.blogspot.com.br/2012/11/a-system-of-caves.html
Perfect post.
...and beautiful dreams
Perhaps they will become reality...
I would also like to see some mission creator tool for community.
Something similar to STOs Foundry.
It is win win situation for devs.
Community can make really amazing stories sometimes.
...and beautiful dreams
Perhaps they will become reality...
I would also like to see some mission creator tool for community.
Something similar to STOs Foundry.
It is win win situation for devs.
Community can make really amazing stories sometimes.
It's a big enough problem that Voxel Farm have been working tirelessly on their engine for years and are far from done with it...
