PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

[Frenotx]

The guld of difference between PvE and PvP is quite possibly the biggest factor preventing this game from achieving any amount of balance in the realm of combat. This has been an issue since before horizons, but the massive increase in power afforded by engineering, without a similar increase in power in NPCs, has changed a gap into a chasm. PvE became all about "farming" as many vastly technically inferior ships as quickly as possible, while PvP remained all about killing one (or a very small number of) ship(s). What this leads to is people basically playing two different games. What might seem fine for one person will seem like a mess to another, and vice versa. Mechanics that are of great importance to one person, may be completely irrelevant mysteries to another. Beyond the obvious challenge of balancing things to work in two vastly different environments, this huge gap also drives a wedge into the community. It all comes down to "PvE players vs. PvP players" in discussions, with ridiculous things like someone accusing someone else of being one or the other. It shouldn't be like that. It should just be people discussing COMBAT, not one type or the other, or which one is "better" than the other.

It doesn't need to be like this. If frontier would make a concerted effort to make top-ranking NPCs as close to fully optimized PvP fit ships as possible (and scale all other ranks evenly between that, and "harmless" NPCs remaining like they are), this division could go a way. Yes it would be a mess at first. Yes payouts would need to be adjusted, and cr/hr would be thrown into flux again. But guess what? That's because things are currently not in a good place. This craziness would be a pain, but it would get everyone on the same page. Real productive discussions could take place, with everyone now facing the same challenges and dealing with the same mechanics. Talks could change from "PvP vs. PvE", and instead become, "How can we make the game better?" Will this ever happen? I'm not sure. I tend to be doubtful. FDev has proven themselves to be quite hesitant to upset a given apple, much less the whole apple cart. I can hope, though, and we can all encourage them to take the hard steps that need to be taken.

I know this is (more than) a bit of a rant. I'm just exasperated. I'm tired of all the bickering, and I'm tired of myself and others needing to defend themselves, instead of their ideas. I plan on taking a leave from the forums for an indefinite amount of time. I fully intend to keep playing the game as I enjoy it (despite it's increasingly large amount of unrealized potential). If you feel like chatting, feel free to hit me up there (CMDR Frenotx). I may also still post videos to my youtube channel, since that's kinda fun to do. I need to disengage from the forums for a while, though. It's just too blasted frustrating and disappointing. So celebrate, I guess. You chased off another dirty "PvP player" trying to ruin the game.

Edit: against my better judgment, and against what I told both myself and everyone else in this thread, I came back and looked at this. Jesus Christ. Half this thread is just talking about me being some "PvP player that doesn't understand the game." Good god. While I play in open and occasionally fight players when the moment arises, THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF MY GAMEPLAY IS PVE COMBAT. Half the reason I made this thread was me getting sick of people constantly ACCUSING me of being a PvP player "out to ruin their have" (consider the absurdity of that statement) any time I make a balance suggestion. And yes, making NPC ships just like player ships would be A MESS. But you know what that is? BECAUSE BALANCE IS F'd. The whole point is so that everyone can see that, and all WORK TOGETHER to fix it. Reading the replies to this thus far has completely reaffirmed that I need to make myself stay away for a good while.

 

[Space Dandy]

...snip... It all comes down to "PvE players vs. PvP players" in discussions, ...snip...

I been playing games both online and offline for a long long time and it will always be an issue when a company decides to cater to both pvp AND pve.

It's simply a fact that you can't balance pve AND pvp without one or the other suffering or both even.

 

[GroundxZERO]

I completely and whole heartedly agree. I’ve run into this gap myself. I don’t have much time to play so I do what I can. Spent the last year engineering a ship for pve knowing full well that it didn’t really matter because NPCs are trash anyway. Got bored a few nights ago and decided to try some pvp in the new cg knowing that I’d probably lose but man I didn’t realize I’d lose by that much! The other pilot completely brushed me aside and my ship is heavily engineered! I’m not a great pilot, but I’m not a bad one either. That fight should’ve been much closer but like you said, two different games...

 

[znôrt]

It doesn't need to be like this. If frontier would make a concerted effort to make top-ranking NPCs as close to fully optimized PvP fit ships as possible (and scale all other ranks evenly between that, and "harmless" NPCs remaining like they are), this division could go a way.

won't really work, bots are bots, but fair enough. in that case i would advise to make engineer modifications free or dirty cheap and only for credits. or not. but we know it's not going to happen. you just need to accept it

I plan on taking a leave from the forums for an indefinite amount of time

sad to hear. safe travels!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

If frontier would make a concerted effort to make top-ranking NPCs as close to fully optimized PvP fit ships as possible (and scale all other ranks evenly between that, and "harmless" NPCs remaining like they are), this division could go a way.

I could be wrong, but that just might cause lots of people to quit playing. I'm all for difficult NPCs but that might be a step too far. Would depend on how competent the NPC pilots are.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

The guld of difference between PvE and PvP is quite possibly the biggest factor preventing this game from achieving any amount of balance in the realm of combat. This has been an issue since before horizons, but the massive increase in power afforded by engineering, without a similar increase in power in NPCs, has changed a gap into a chasm. PvE became all about "farming" as many vastly technically inferior ships as quickly as possible, while PvP remained all about killing one (or a very small number of) ship(s). What this leads to is people basically playing two different games. What might seem fine for one person will seem like a mess to another, and vice versa. Mechanics that are of great importance to one person, may be completely irrelevant mysteries to another. Beyond the obvious challenge of balancing things to work in two vastly different environments, this huge gap also drives a wedge into the community. It all comes down to "PvE players vs. PvP players" in discussions, with ridiculous things like someone accusing someone else of being one or the other. It shouldn't be like that. It should just be people discussing COMBAT, not one type or the other, or which one is "better" than the other.

It doesn't need to be like this. If frontier would make a concerted effort to make top-ranking NPCs as close to fully optimized PvP fit ships as possible (and scale all other ranks evenly between that, and "harmless" NPCs remaining like they are), this division could go a way. Yes it would be a mess at first. Yes payouts would need to be adjusted, and cr/hr would be thrown into flux again. But guess what? That's because things are currently not in a good place. This craziness would be a pain, but it would get everyone on the same page. Real productive discussions could take place, with everyone now facing the same challenges and dealing with the same mechanics. Talks could change from "PvP vs. PvE", and instead become, "How can we make the game better?" Will this ever happen? I'm not sure. I tend to be doubtful. FDev has proven themselves to be quite hesitant to upset a given apple, much less the whole apple cart. I can hope, though, and we can all encourage them to take the hard steps that need to be taken.

I know this is (more than) a bit of a rant. I'm just exasperated. I'm tired of all the bickering, and I'm tired of myself and others needing to defend themselves, instead of their ideas. I plan on taking a leave from the forums for an indefinite amount of time. I fully intend to keep playing the game as I enjoy it (despite it's increasingly large amount of unrealized potential). If you feel like chatting, feel free to hit me up there (CMDR Frenotx). I may also still post videos to my youtube channel, since that's kinda fun to do. I need to disengage from the forums for a while, though. It's just too blasted frustrating and disappointing. So celebrate, I guess. You chased off another dirty "PvP player" trying to ruin the game.

I respect that you're doing what you feel is best for yourself.
Sorry to see you go as I've very much appreciated your quality posts and content.

Cheers and best wishes Cmdr!

 

[fsdraconis]

First off, Elite is actually a PVE game with pvp.

Second, PVP players, often and more than not, have giant ego's because they have to feel superior and enjoy proving it. That, is their enjoyment. Other's, though a smaller amount prefer the differences a human brings that an npc does not.

Third, PVE players, do not regularly seek to prove them selves. They play for other enjoyment factors. Such as, playing with friends, for the sake of socializing. They don't need extreme challenges or interest in facing against pvp archetype npc's.


You are forgetting the uproar over the npc difficulty change. Subjecting it to everyone does not make for a factor of enjoyment for everyone. PVE and PVP players have a rift, because they do not play for the same reasons. But like you just posts. The PVE players, don't come in here and make a big uproar over this and that.

But very regularly people make threads over wanting to change the whole game. Just like you mentioned. Trying to mesh the two is the mistake. Accepting that they are not the same and letting them be is the answer. Which is why, we have three modes.

I try, to play Elite to have fun. I don't play for pvp anything. If Frontier took away all costs of any sort for PVP. I still, wouldn't have any interest. If I then also had 100 billion credits. PVP still would not be a consideration. I get zero enjoyment out of the idea. Yet, here you are trying to suggest I need to have it forced onto me.

This division between PVP and PVE is not simply a basis of opponent choice. You are just completely incapable of actually putting yourself in a box, where PVP offers zero forms of enjoyment on all levels. Where the AI as is, is not needed to be changed. Fdev can't even fix their exploiting and cheating npc's that just keep fighting with a dead power plant and distributor. Not to mention unlimited ammo on chaff, cell banks, weapons. etc etc.

Just accept that you enjoy something that most PVE players do not have any interest in. Accept, that there is nothing wrong with people of different minds and interests. We have more than enough room for both. We are here, to play a game and have fun.

 

[Truesilver]

The solution is for Frontier to implement more and more optional scenarios involving Engineered NPC's.

At the highest end the NPC should have tweaked AI designed to maximize the effectiveness of its loadout.

Example: Elite NPC with full long range rails, pulses and a drag seeker should fly completely differently to Elite NPC with short range blaster PA's plus frags.

The highest possible tier of challenge should be 4 x Elite NPC's with the nastiest possible gameplan, e.g. one of them carries cascade and drive reboot mines and attacks only after the others have engaged, or (e.g no.2) a full stacked phasing wing.

If we get the above we can finally discuss our mutual experiences without too much PvE/PvP relevance.

...And of course, credit and materials rewards should be scaled to match!

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The solution is for Frontier to implement more and more optional scenarios involving Engineered NPC's.

At the highest end the NPC should have tweaked AI designed to maximize the effectiveness of its loadout.

Example: Elite NPC with full long range rails, pulses and a drag seeker should fly completely differently to Elite NPC with short range blaster PA's plus frags.

The highest possible tier of challenge should be 4 x Elite NPC's with the nastiest possible gameplan, e.g. one of them carries cascade and drive reboot mines and attacks only after the others have engaged, or (e.g no.2) a full stacked phasing wing.

If we get the above we can finally discuss our mutual experiences without too much PvE/PvP relevance.

...And of course, credit and materials rewards should be scaled to match!

Yup, i think this is the way to go. Provide challenges with appropriate rewards for those seeking them. The last thing less skilled players need or those flying weaker ships to is be randomly facing NPC gankmobiles. That's just a turn off. But if its done like the thargoid signal source or special high skill missions, then sure. Basically its clear what you are getting into, and you have to choose to face those enemies.

 

[cmdr kruzer70]

The problem is that many in the PvP crowd fail to realize that PvP is a tiny aspect of the game. From other's perspective, it often seems the PvP community has an elitist view of themselves and seeks disproportionate influence on the game.

Of course the biggest problem by far is with FD. They can't seem to decide whether their game should be a sandbox, a MMO or a Space Combat Simulator.

Also OP, PvP players aren't exactly unified in their demands so it's hard to evaluate whether they want to 'ruin the game or not'. Some of their ideas sound reasonable while others are just plain stupid. As long as the current networking and instancing structures are in place ED cannot be a PvP focused game. And, that's not even discussing the messed up combat mechanics.

 

[Morbad]

It's simply a fact that you can't balance pve AND pvp without one or the other suffering or both even.

I don't agree.

In a perfect game, you there wouldn't be any difference between PvP and PvE. Both player and non-player characters would behave plausibly because the game would encourage players to do so and the AI would be able to do so.

While no game is going to be perfect, I still think many of the problems for PvP and PvE in Elite dangerous are the same problems with the same solutions. As it stands, players are rewarded for engaging in absurdity and the NPC still feel like lifeless placeholders.

They can't seem to decide whether their game should be a sandbox, a MMO or a Space Combat Simulator.

It's a space-oriented alternate-future galaxy simulator that needs to be all three of those things to do itself justice.

 

[Seizewell Warrior]

A single player game with selectable difficulty level and a PvP arena for the gankers would have worked quite well.

Oh hang on...

 

[Space Dandy]

I don't agree.

In a perfect game, you there wouldn't be any difference between PvP and PvE. Both player and non-player characters would behave plausibly because the game would encourage players to do so and the AI would be able to do so.

While no game is going to be perfect, I still think many of the problems for PvP and PvE in Elite dangerous are the same problems with the same solutions. As it stands, players are rewarded for engaging in absurdity and the NPC still feel like lifeless placeholders.



It's a space-oriented alternate-future galaxy simulator that needs to be all three of those things to do itself justice.

The problem is that fundamentally pve and pvp players don't want the same thing, pvp players want pve to essentially be the same as pvp while pve players don't.

This very thread is a prime example of why, with both side repeating the same arguments in practically every game that try to do both pve and pvp.

While in theory it might sound nice or that it would be some kind of magic the truth is the pver would leave and the game would bleed far too many players.

You might not agree but then you don't need to cause in the end money talks.

 

[CMDR The Riz]

[...] If frontier would make a concerted effort to make top-ranking NPCs as close to fully optimized PvP fit ships as possible (and scale all other ranks evenly between that, and "harmless" NPCs remaining like they are), this division could go a way. Yes it would be a mess at first. Yes payouts would need to be adjusted, and cr/hr would be thrown into flux again. But guess what? That's because things are currently not in a good place. This craziness would be a pain, but it would get everyone on the same page. Real productive discussions could take place, with everyone now facing the same challenges and dealing with the same mechanics. Talks could change from "PvP vs. PvE", and instead become, "How can we make the game better?" Will this ever happen? I'm not sure. I tend to be doubtful. FDev has proven themselves to be quite hesitant to upset a given apple, much less the whole apple cart. I can hope, though, and we can all encourage them to take the hard steps that need to be taken. [...]

I'm always... baffled?... at the whole notion of "Fit for PVE/PVP." I acknowledge that there may be advantages fitting exclusively for PVE, but if there is one thing that I've learned in Shipbuilding since 2.1 was released (when I first started eyeing PVP...yes, I've been considering/scheming for PVP [i.e. "How to make a ship that isn't a Meta Ship that can take on the Meta-De-Lance and win"] for something like three years now and still don't have much to show for it... aside from some wacky fails, like this one) it's this simple phrase:

"Outfit to fight the best, and you'll beat the rest." - Truesilver Or my spin on it:
"Outfit your ship as if Rinzler/John Raanes/[insert PVPer/PVP group of choice here] is dunking on you and your rebuy depends on it which it probably does!"

Following the spirit of that phrase has made me go from this:

Spoiler

[video=youtube_share;fCxqRAMwchI]https://youtu.be/fCxqRAMwchI[/video]

to this:

Spoiler

[video=youtube_share;_3gHAt39euY]https://youtu.be/_3gHAt39euY[/video]
[video=youtube_share;ML8KKuYh_is]https://youtu.be/ML8KKuYh_is[/video]

And I still have a long way to go.

I know this is (more than) a bit of a rant. I'm just exasperated. I'm tired of all the bickering, and I'm tired of myself and others needing to defend themselves, instead of their ideas. I plan on taking a leave from the forums for an indefinite amount of time. I fully intend to keep playing the game as I enjoy it (despite it's increasingly large amount of unrealized potential). If you feel like chatting, feel free to hit me up there (CMDR Frenotx). I may also still post videos to my youtube channel, since that's kinda fun to do. I need to disengage from the forums for a while, though. It's just too blasted frustrating and disappointing. So celebrate, I guess. You chased off another dirty "PvP player" trying to ruin the game.

I saw what you're referring to in the one of the other threads - particularly in regards to your most recent video where you engaged a player-flown Cutter. I understand the concerns some of them raise as well as some of the problems of the status quo - I straddle the line between being a Big and Small ship pilot (Occasionally a Laser/Exploration Dropship / Democracy Gunship pilot too... lol). I've been there with the "If my shields fail I'm toast!" of the Big Ships and the "My God I've been at this for half an hour" of the small ships.

I don't understand the hostility to suggestions, particularly to those around Shields. Perhaps I'm naive.

In any event, don't let the Forum PVP get you down - they're just trying to express their viewpoint in a ... less elegant?... way. (Oh, and when you're out in the Black... give those Flechette Launchers a go. Might help with the shields )

----

Off topic: Pretty sure I can't go 3 posts here without either linking or embedding a video of my terribad flying skills. It's like handwaving while talking - need to stop that [haha]

 

[mono]

To be honest I'm more worried about the flagrant abuse of apostrophes than the great PvE/PvP debate.

 

[cmdr kruzer70]

"My God I've been at this for half an hour" of the small ships.

As it should be. How long do you think a ski boat with a 4 in gun should take to down a battleship? Conversely, how many direct hits from a battleship's main guns do you think same said ski boat could withstand?

 

[npcole]

I completely and whole heartedly agree. I’ve run into this gap myself. I don’t have much time to play so I do what I can. Spent the last year engineering a ship for pve knowing full well that it didn’t really matter because NPCs are trash anyway. Got bored a few nights ago and decided to try some pvp in the new cg knowing that I’d probably lose but man I didn’t realize I’d lose by that much! The other pilot completely brushed me aside and my ship is heavily engineered! I’m not a great pilot, but I’m not a bad one either. That fight should’ve been much closer but like you said, two different games...

I had exactly the same experience. I have a moderately to highly engineered FDL, fitted out in a way that makes PVE an enjoyable challenge. It’s a build with strong (but not godlike) shields, and a mix of weaponry. With it I can (with care) take down tough wings of PVE ships even if sometimes I have to run for my life.

But when I headed over to the community goal — three rebuy screens in an hour, which was painful. All of them were the result of interdictions and one on one fights where I was completely outclassed. I’m not the best pilot in the world, but it was completely clear to me (for example) that if you don’t have magic effects on your weapons you can’t win, and if you are flying lasers you are a mug. The damage output of multicannons, combined with all the magic effects they have and the thermal resistance of engineered shields makes Lasers completely irrelevant for PVP.

In other words the ship builds required even to fly in open with other players around look completely different to the PVE builds.

I completely agree with the diagnosis of the problem in the original post. I don’t know what the solution is.

I am not experienced enough to know the solution. I am probably wrong but I’d like to see some of the magic effects on the weapons removed (though I don’t see that happening) and either a buff to lasers or something done to remove the massive advantage that MC builds have — low power output and massive DPS means that every PVP player I met just recommended going for an all MC build. That seems rather boring.

At any rate, the fact that you can’t think: “gosh, I managed to do an elite wing assassination mission on my own, maybe I’ll enjoy the CG a bit more now” and be right is a real problem.

 

[Dommarraa]

Getting an NPC to behave like a PC is the easy bit, it's just technology.
Getting PC to behave like NPC (there is an in game reason for the fight) is the difficult bit.
I have a deluded hype train dream that squadrons will make a step in that direction. When players all have minor faction tags, we can, if we choose to engage in the actual game, finally identify friend from foe.
Then when the reasonable PvP community have engaged in the game, the remaining smaller than tiny group of unreasonable 'killing for lols' players can have the full force of c&p turned on them as the terrorists they would then be.

I know it will fail, and a large part of that will be down to FD not clearly communicating their intention

 

[Sandmann]

The guld of difference between PvE and PvP

[snip]

So celebrate, I guess. You chased off another dirty "PvP player" trying to ruin the game.

What you suggest WOULD give PvEers a reason to chase engineering, tank up their ships etc in a similar way to that which PvPers do. but you've forgotten a basic point. You describe the PvE game as ""farming" as many vastly technically inferior ships as quickly as possible". That may or may not be true for those whose interest is PvE combat, but you neglect the fact that for many PvEers the game is NOT about combat... it's about exploration, or mining, or being a merchant, or a smuggler, or whatever and often combat is an undesirable and sometimes unwanted complication rather than the end-goal.

Having said that, there ARE PvEers (myself included) who WOULD like to see more capable NPCs.

 

[CMDR The Riz]

[...] how many direct hits from a battleship's main guns do you think same said ski boat could withstand?

That's why I love small ships... and why it's so satisfying when you finally figure out an iEagle build that can tear through Anacondas