The quality of ED's future

[Zmaj od Bosne]

Horizons announced, well, surely and exciting thing.
My excitement however is a bit lacking because I'm not convinced about whether this is a step forward to something or away from something else.

ED is still a shallow, contentless framework with non-functioning placeholders. It's over 8 months after release and fundamental issues has not been sorted out to make ED up to a good standard or at least to match the quality of years old games in the same genre or with the same features. There's a lot of work to be done on this area and not much have been done since release (since Betas to be honest).
The 1.x series brought a few again unfinished, unorganic additions which did not address any of the fundamental issues repeatedly reported on the forums - ED can be "more" but it can not be "higher quality" this way.

Now it's another move towards planetary landings and I do understand the excitement but have some concerns overall:
- will Horizons be another half-baked, content-empty addition released as buggy as the previous patches regardless of the beta feedbacks?
- will the default ED have now even less resources to be able to bring the quality a lot of players expect and desire?
- will FD's financial model produce further examples of rushed, overly hyped but not properly done features for even more money? Is this the 10-years plan?

I'm not sure if I'm waiting for Horizons or a sound ED before that.

This is exactly how I feel about the game right now.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll take a crack at this one.

1. A functional background simulation, including;

• A working economy, where values of goods are determined by events in the system, i.e., a plague system offering profits on medicines, or systems at war paying a premium for weapons. Supply and demand, driving trade.
• Supporting a system faction to cause it to take over stations and ultimately change the allegiance of a system, i.e flipping a system from independent to Alliance, Federation or Empire for example. Currently broken.
• Missions generated by background simulation based on factors in system, sorta works when the BGS works but often does not.
• Almost complete lack of tie-in between newly introduced PowerPlay and the background simulation. PowerPlay is essentially a separate game experience from Elite Dangerous, complete with its own list of newly introduced problems.

2. Instancing issues;

• Consistent problems joining wings, some people seeing enemy ships, others don't, etc.
• Comms issues - can't chat with people in the same instance.
• Connectivity problems

3. Broken mission system, including;

• Alternate missions that don't work properly/offer no reward
• No branching missions
• Important military promotion missions that require a pilot to deliver 4 tons of grain to a neighboring spaceport
• Garbled mission text with placeholders; deliver goods to $systemXYZ
• "Meet me at a specific port" missions where no one was waiting for you upon arrival. Fixed apparently by removing them from the game altogether in a previous update.
• "New" mission system introduced pilot level requirements; you need to be rated "X" to fly this mission has resulted in missions requiring "Elite" ranking to haul 4 tons of biowaste.
• No cooperative "party" missions.

4. Missing content

• Only 20 ships available of the 30 promised at launch
• Permit systems still have no reason for existing
• No benefit/reason to rank up in Imperial/Federal navy other than titles
• Unknown artifact mystery introduced and dropped
• Unique objects/phenomena for explorers to discover not implemented
• Thargoids, a key piece of Elite lore absent.

5. Cheating/Griefing/bugs - combat logging, hacks, exploits and other issues present since release.

• Too many to list, just look through the forums.

This is all just off the top of my head. The game in its current state is not finished. I'm a huge fan of Elite going back to the original game. Ever since the Beta I've been preaching patience and "give them time, they're going to fix these things." But after every release since launch, it's gotten harder and harder to keep up the faith. The release of PowerPlay was an indicator that development efforts were shifting from fixing the core game. The announcement of CQC and the XBox version make it more obvious. Now, Frontier is moving onto the paid expansions begging the question of who is going to fix the current problems when someone is going to have to fix the new problems inevitably introduced by the new mechanics?

If the above issues had been addressed over time, I'd have no problem pre-ordering Horizons or even getting the lifetime pass. But so far the track record just doesn't warrant it. I've already stopped playing ED and basically haunt the forums looking for some sign that the game I paid for is going to be finished. I'll give 1.4 and 1.5 a shot and honestly hope it will pull me back into the game... but until then I'm not buying another product with Elite in the name.

Great post. Hits the nail on the head.

 

[Engadine]

Horizons announced, well, surely and exciting thing.
My excitement however is a bit lacking because I'm not convinced about whether this is a step forward to something or away from something else.

ED is still a shallow, contentless framework with non-functioning placeholders. It's over 8 months after release and fundamental issues has not been sorted out to make ED up to a good standard or at least to match the quality of years old games in the same genre or with the same features. There's a lot of work to be done on this area and not much have been done since release (since Betas to be honest).
The 1.x series brought a few again unfinished, unorganic additions which did not address any of the fundamental issues repeatedly reported on the forums - ED can be "more" but it can not be "higher quality" this way.

Now it's another move towards planetary landings and I do understand the excitement but have some concerns overall:
- will Horizons be another half-baked, content-empty addition released as buggy as the previous patches regardless of the beta feedbacks?
- will the default ED have now even less resources to be able to bring the quality a lot of players expect and desire?
- will FD's financial model produce further examples of rushed, overly hyped but not properly done features for even more money? Is this the 10-years plan?

I'm not sure if I'm waiting for Horizons or a sound ED before that.

I also share your concerns.

Yes, the "Expansion Pack" (Can't bring myself to use the "S" word that Frontier seem to have adopted!) for Planetary Landings is a good thing in a way. However I feel it's just adding more gloss to a game that if you scratch deeper, past Close Quarter Combat and now Horizons is lacking substance and depth which if it the game had it would give it the missing character that some, if not a lot of people currently feel is missing.

Powerplay was introduced, which I've yet to get involved in. Why? Well it just seems like a thin layer that was put over the top of the game to try and give it this missing substance & depth. Personally I feel that it's failed in doing this as from what I've read Powerplay is nothing more than a grind for very little return. Added to that, the Powers just appeared as Powers. Where did they come from, what do we even know about them besides a short Ethos?

Frontier had a great opportunity to add Lore to the game through the help/assistance from the authors of the official Elite fiction that has been written. Possibly not all of them would be interested to contribute and maybe some of the fiction isn't suitable to bring on board into the game, but it appeared to me that they were just happy to grab the money for the right to write a novel and be done with it. May be I'm wrong?

Certainly the current Galnet stories don't bring much to the game, but then I'm not participating in Powerplay, which when ever I look at Galnet it seems nothing but geared towards Powerplay either with the occasional story, Meet the Powers or Powerplay stats.

I see your point and I respect it. But that's not how I personaly feel. As I picture the thing, I'll be in my ship like today, scanning planets in an unknown solar system, and then I'll be able to do something I cannot today : go down and explore.

So YES , all the things missing today are still missing, but there is something more to do, something more to see, and this is definitely depth to me, and a LOT of depth even (well, hopefully).
So this is a HUGE step in the right direction, as long as you consider Horizons more like an E : D part and not a separate entity.

I disagree in the fact that there being something more to do gives the game depth. It's just a new branch on a hollow tree trunk.

FD continue to add broken things on broken things onto the basic broken mechanincs.... and they only think to $. They have to make the game works well in all the professions and fix the open/solo/private thing and the combat logging/cheating/hacking that they cannot fix (will be already fixed otherwise)

Sadly I feel that Frontier are being driven more and more by the $/£, especially as time goes on. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are some external pressures from third parties for this, surely the Microsoft tie in must add to this.

I understand that they have to make money and I hope they long continue to do so for the sake of the game. Having said that it seems that that is what all these expansions are about, driving more and more sales, which will result in the missing core of the game being long forgotten.

I agree. First they should have fixed the game properly, and only then move on to expensive expansions.

+ 1

I don't think that this is where the base game ends and all focus goes into the expansion. FD went through the trouble of expanding its development team dedicated to the game, so it's safe to assume that they'll be able to work on both simultaneously.

That I feel is an assumption that isn't safe to make.

I kinda agree with your points about the gameplay being empty - the galaxy is still quite lifeless and repetitive, and could do with a serious injection of character, variety and personality

But I've pre-ordered Horizons and am excited to play it. I can only hope they will continue to address the core game issues while developing new expansions - but it's not subscription based, so they need the money to come from somewhere to pay for this stuff to happen. and there's only so many paintjobs you can buy...

Well if they apply the current pricing model to each of the Expansion Packs, then they'll have more than enough money coming in for the game not to be subscription based. Especially if each time they sell the Life Time Expansion Pack for newer players of the game.

I'll take a crack at this one.

1. A functional background simulation, including;

• A working economy, where values of goods are determined by events in the system, i.e., a plague system offering profits on medicines, or systems at war paying a premium for weapons. Supply and demand, driving trade.
• Supporting a system faction to cause it to take over stations and ultimately change the allegiance of a system, i.e flipping a system from independent to Alliance, Federation or Empire for example. Currently broken.
• Missions generated by background simulation based on factors in system, sorta works when the BGS works but often does not.
• Almost complete lack of tie-in between newly introduced PowerPlay and the background simulation. PowerPlay is essentially a separate game experience from Elite Dangerous, complete with its own list of newly introduced problems.

2. Instancing issues;

• Consistent problems joining wings, some people seeing enemy ships, others don't, etc.
• Comms issues - can't chat with people in the same instance.
• Connectivity problems

3. Broken mission system, including;

• Alternate missions that don't work properly/offer no reward
• No branching missions
• Important military promotion missions that require a pilot to deliver 4 tons of grain to a neighboring spaceport
• Garbled mission text with placeholders; deliver goods to $systemXYZ
• "Meet me at a specific port" missions where no one was waiting for you upon arrival. Fixed apparently by removing them from the game altogether in a previous update.
• "New" mission system introduced pilot level requirements; you need to be rated "X" to fly this mission has resulted in missions requiring "Elite" ranking to haul 4 tons of biowaste.
• No cooperative "party" missions.

4. Missing content

• Only 20 ships available of the 30 promised at launch
• Permit systems still have no reason for existing
• No benefit/reason to rank up in Imperial/Federal navy other than titles
• Unknown artifact mystery introduced and dropped
• Unique objects/phenomena for explorers to discover not implemented
• Thargoids, a key piece of Elite lore absent.

5. Cheating/Griefing/bugs - combat logging, hacks, exploits and other issues present since release.

• Too many to list, just look through the forums.

This is all just off the top of my head. The game in its current state is not finished. I'm a huge fan of Elite going back to the original game. Ever since the Beta I've been preaching patience and "give them time, they're going to fix these things." But after every release since launch, it's gotten harder and harder to keep up the faith. The release of PowerPlay was an indicator that development efforts were shifting from fixing the core game. The announcement of CQC and the XBox version make it more obvious. Now, Frontier is moving onto the paid expansions begging the question of who is going to fix the current problems when someone is going to have to fix the new problems inevitably introduced by the new mechanics?

If the above issues had been addressed over time, I'd have no problem pre-ordering Horizons or even getting the lifetime pass. But so far the track record just doesn't warrant it. I've already stopped playing ED and basically haunt the forums looking for some sign that the game I paid for is going to be finished. I'll give 1.4 and 1.5 a shot and honestly hope it will pull me back into the game... but until then I'm not buying another product with Elite in the name.

As Zmaj od Bosne has said, "Hits the nail on the head".

Time will tell if Frontier take any note to the concerns or the assurances they keep giving on further developing the core game.

There.... Feel so much better now!

 

[nosscar]

Maybe FD needed the money from PL, so they can continue to improve the core game.
I agree a lot of things needs adding content wise, but PL is still content, and maybe they needed to do it first if cash was running low.

 

[CaptainSodom]

The US is a much bigger market than the UK.

But US is a smaller market than Europe, both in terms of population and video game revenue.

 

[kilvenny]

Maybe FD needed the money from PL, so they can continue to improve the core game.
I agree a lot of things needs adding content wise, but PL is still content, and maybe they needed to do it first if cash was running low.

Spot on - thank you. It's about funding this year and next years development and the servers.

The developers are adding new content and this thread is a bundle of misery. CQC looks awesome - Horizons looks incredible - Can we not savour the fact FD are adding content to the game!

 

[Switchback]

ElectricZ and others that are feeling the same; In my experience of games and more importantly developers, I would say that there's a lot less to worry about in the longer term than you might think. People seem to think it's an out and out cash grab, but I would say that's pretty far from the truth.

There is a return to be made from investors without any doubt; but having watched David Braben's career since he wrote Elite in 1984, (mostly waiting for the next version of Elite, and for a long time, the game that never made it) I'm in no way convinced that he's just turning this into a cash cow. You may say that I'm buying into the hype, but I'm far too long in the tooth for that.

I think that if the problems are highlighted in a specific way, perhaps a better forum for feedback that this forum? Then a large number of the points made in ElectricZ post would be the first to be targeted, whilst still developing more content.

Now despite saying all this; I do think that expectations were set higher in the community and more promises were made than could be kept through Alpha/Beta/release. I'm firmly of the opinion though that these problems are being dealt with.

ElectricZ in your final comments regarding the indicator that Powerplay was a shift away from fixing the core game, I think that the idea of Powerplay was at least intended to give depth to the background simulation, whether that has worked or not is a different question.

As for the quick release of Mac and Xbox versions, and CQC, I personally think that any extra cash raised to continue the development of the game is a good thing.

So, after all that rambling. I'm very confident that Elite will be all it can be one day, for a very large percentage of it's players, though they can't keep everyone happy. I also think that it would not have got off the ground if it hadn't been released near or soon after it was, and we wouldn't be having this conversation now as a result.

I look forward to everything that's to come over the next 12 months, as I'm sure it will be good, and keep me returning to the game.

 

[ElectricZ]

ElectricZ and others that are feeling the same; In my experience of games and more importantly developers, I would say that there's a lot less to worry about in the longer term than you might think. People seem to think it's an out and out cash grab, but I would say that's pretty far from the truth.

Worry is a strong word. Worry really should be reserved for climate change, homelessness, the spread of war and disease, etc. Personally, I've never looked at this as a cash grab by Frontier. I've never been against them trying to make money and have freely given them more money, buying into the beta, skin purchases and buying the soundtrack... up until now. I'm not even up in arms about Horizons costing as much as it does. FD was very up front about it being a paid expansion, and I think developers should get paid for their work. Expecting free expansions forever is unfair and unrealistic.

Expecting the existing game to work, however, is not. My complaint is that there are long standing issues that Elite: Dangerous has had since launch that are not being taken care of, and instead of fixing them, Frontier keeps adding new additions to the game with new sets of problems, and that the existing issues aren't being dealt with.

I'll come back to the game with the CQC update and then the Ships update, and if I don't find the game enjoyable, I'll move on to something else just like any other game.

ElectricZ in your final comments regarding the indicator that Powerplay was a shift away from fixing the core game, I think that the idea of Powerplay was at least intended to give depth to the background simulation, whether that has worked or not is a different question.

This is where I have to disagree. PowerPlay does nothing but ignore the Background Sim. From everything I can see, PowerPlay is designed to be completely isolated from the rest of Elite. It has its own rules for expansion that ignore the background sim. It ignores the boundaries drawn between the Alliance, Federation and Empire in the background sim. You can pledge to a power regardless of your reputation with the big three factions. You earn merits instead of credits. You rank up in PowerPlay rather than increasing your rank and reputation with the factions. Enemies you make in PowerPlay don't affect your standing with the main factions, nor does any rank you hold in a navy affect how a Power feels about you. You haul cargo that is specific to PowerPlay rather than commodities in the market. You take specific missions from the PowerPlay screen instead of the bulletin board. And to top it all off, in order to be successful at PowerPlay you have to stop doing things like trading, exploring, smuggling, bounty hunting, mining and running the missions that make up the heart of Elite: Dangerous, the part of the game which I argue needs the most love.

PowerPlay really made me think FD has given up on the core game. It's like I put in another thread: It's like I bought a beautiful house where six months after moving in only half the rooms have plumbing or electricity... Yet I hear the sounds of brand new constriction coming from up the block being done by the guys who were supposed to be finishing out my place. Is this accurate? Only time and 1.4 and 1.5 will tell.

 

[Jason S]

The don't think about $ they think about £.
.
On the OPs point if you keep your imagination locked down the content available in the 2015 release will not only let you fly around and see planet and the such but also get out and land and drive around on another planet, if that is ALL they do it will be incredible in the depth department.

I agree it is lacking right now but this will mean a lot of extra stuff to do this is real content

I agree, problem is some are not seeing the experience that Elite is.

 

[Renegade Roach]

What worried me in that stream today was the way Sandro used the word 'hopefully'. 'Hopefully we're going to have lots of cool stuff to discover' [on planets]... I mean, surely the lead designer should know?

I agree, problem is some are not seeing the experience that Elite is.

That is a tired, hackneyed and utterly condescending line. It also goes both ways...

 

[medwyn]

I'll take a crack at this one.

1. A functional background simulation, including;

• A working economy, where values of goods are determined by events in the system, i.e., a plague system offering profits on medicines, or systems at war paying a premium for weapons. Supply and demand, driving trade.
• Supporting a system faction to cause it to take over stations and ultimately change the allegiance of a system, i.e flipping a system from independent to Alliance, Federation or Empire for example. Currently broken.
• Missions generated by background simulation based on factors in system, sorta works when the BGS works but often does not.
• Almost complete lack of tie-in between newly introduced PowerPlay and the background simulation. PowerPlay is essentially a separate game experience from Elite Dangerous, complete with its own list of newly introduced problems.

2. Instancing issues;

• Consistent problems joining wings, some people seeing enemy ships, others don't, etc.
• Comms issues - can't chat with people in the same instance.
• Connectivity problems

3. Broken mission system, including;

• Alternate missions that don't work properly/offer no reward
• No branching missions
• Important military promotion missions that require a pilot to deliver 4 tons of grain to a neighboring spaceport
• Garbled mission text with placeholders; deliver goods to $systemXYZ
• "Meet me at a specific port" missions where no one was waiting for you upon arrival. Fixed apparently by removing them from the game altogether in a previous update.
• "New" mission system introduced pilot level requirements; you need to be rated "X" to fly this mission has resulted in missions requiring "Elite" ranking to haul 4 tons of biowaste.
• No cooperative "party" missions.

4. Missing content

• Only 20 ships available of the 30 promised at launch
• Permit systems still have no reason for existing
• No benefit/reason to rank up in Imperial/Federal navy other than titles
• Unknown artifact mystery introduced and dropped
• Unique objects/phenomena for explorers to discover not implemented
• Thargoids, a key piece of Elite lore absent.

5. Cheating/Griefing/bugs - combat logging, hacks, exploits and other issues present since release.

• Too many to list, just look through the forums.

This is all just off the top of my head. The game in its current state is not finished. I'm a huge fan of Elite going back to the original game. Ever since the Beta I've been preaching patience and "give them time, they're going to fix these things." But after every release since launch, it's gotten harder and harder to keep up the faith. The release of PowerPlay was an indicator that development efforts were shifting from fixing the core game. The announcement of CQC and the XBox version make it more obvious. Now, Frontier is moving onto the paid expansions begging the question of who is going to fix the current problems when someone is going to have to fix the new problems inevitably introduced by the new mechanics?

If the above issues had been addressed over time, I'd have no problem pre-ordering Horizons or even getting the lifetime pass. But so far the track record just doesn't warrant it. I've already stopped playing ED and basically haunt the forums looking for some sign that the game I paid for is going to be finished. I'll give 1.4 and 1.5 a shot and honestly hope it will pull me back into the game... but until then I'm not buying another product with Elite in the name.

Totally agree.
It seems the "make sense" and the "make money" are different things in FD's business model.