The real problem with RNG (and a solution!)

The real issue with RNG is it hides problems with the game.
After seeing Obsidian Ant's latest video and noting that Frontier have confirmed there is an issue with Unknown Probes spawning, I am left wondering how many other things are broken in the game but have been hidden by RNG?

How many other times has an issue cropped up regarding the spawning of particular mission rewards, USS, materials etc and been excused as RNG?

Having worked in customer support I know many organisations use troubleshooting flowcharts (or programs). I can easily imagine "RNG" would be the end of one of those branches, and provide a handy way to end that investigation (we used to call them "get out of jail free" cards).

What Frontier need to do is introduce a modified RNG which reduces the odds every cycle until after a set number cycles the odds become 1:1.
In this way Frontier can always run the cycle and confirm the results are working as intended.

It also means that players have a guarantee that for any RNG event (engineering, materials, mission rewards) they will (eventually) get the result they want.

This doesn't get rid of RNG, but it manages it in a way that is much more productive and satisfying. Lucky players can still gloat about how quickly they got a particular mod/material/reward, while unlucky player will have the guarantee that they will eventually get the result they want (instead of potentially never).

There is the suggestion to offer alternatives to RND grind?

eg: Rather than having to go out and grind to get Engineer materials - and I've done this for hour after hour in the past only to com up empty and find out a bug means they're not spawning! - allow Engineers to offer missions for materials they use. Or the often mentioned Engineer sway shop so you can trade 5 material X's for 1 material Y.

At least by offering alternative approaches, CMDRs then have the choice of which appeals to them...
 
There is the suggestion to offer alternatives to RND grind?

eg: Rather than having to go out and grind to get Engineer materials - and I've done this for hour after hour in the past only to com up empty and find out a bug means they're not spawning! - allow Engineers to offer missions for materials they use. Or the often mentioned Engineer sway shop so you can trade 5 material X's for 1 material Y.

At least by offering alternative approaches, CMDRs then have the choice of which appeals to them...

Both of these ideas are excellent and should come in 2.4. Swap shop for mats at all engineers, like for like rarity for rarity, with a small commission in cash (cos we do need more credit sinks in this game). Just have different engineers prefer different things and allow you to trade your way up, for example, if you want something very rare that the engineer has, and you have enough commons, you can trade twnety commons for a rare, 15 rares for a very rare, 10 very rares for an ultra rare, etc, etc. This effectively homogenises all mats of the same rarity, I realise this, and I still think it would be preferable.
 
Both of these ideas are excellent and should come in 2.4. Swap shop for mats at all engineers, like for like rarity for rarity, with a small commission in cash (cos we do need more credit sinks in this game). Just have different engineers prefer different things and allow you to trade your way up, for example, if you want something very rare that the engineer has, and you have enough commons, you can trade twnety commons for a rare, 15 rares for a very rare, 10 very rares for an ultra rare, etc, etc. This effectively homogenises all mats of the same rarity, I realise this, and I still think it would be preferable.

The random grind of The Engineers just burned me out TBH. I just found it so soul destroying I couldn't even go there. Now, if I could sign up to a mission at the end of which I new I would get the material(s) I was after? Then for me that at least is more appealling than just throwing dice over and over and over and hoping to get three sixes, even if ultimately the chances are the mission would take longer than the dice throwing!
 
Some very valid point's from all i for one just wish Braben would wake f dev up from this hibernation they seem to be in at the moment.
The game is getting a mess instead of trying to add content why don't they just sort the basic mechanics out then add the bloody Thargoid's later i would rather have a working game then a sodding cut scene to which i'm forced to watch.

I appreciate what the whole team have done i played this on a ZX Spectrum many year's ago and that was basic but at least it worked no broken game mechanics 20 plus years later this is a mess.

I feel that Elite after 2 years is grinding along at a pace it should not be at this game should be more stable than what it currently is at if certain f dev aren't capable let some other team member step up.

This is my opinion after waiting along time for this to re vamp and not to mention money i have spent i expect a working game not the frustration of wow more bug's to which we will address in the next patch.
 
There is the suggestion to offer alternatives to RND grind?

eg: Rather than having to go out and grind to get Engineer materials - and I've done this for hour after hour in the past only to com up empty and find out a bug means they're not spawning! - allow Engineers to offer missions for materials they use. Or the often mentioned Engineer sway shop so you can trade 5 material X's for 1 material Y.

At least by offering alternative approaches, CMDRs then have the choice of which appeals to them...

Yep, I like these. I don't mind the RNG personally. But there could be ways to mitigate it. Such as the option of getting ultra rare materials in very difficult places to get to which will reduce the RNG to a certain degree.
 
There is a problem is that it's layered upon a layer of RNGs. There is a problem that you need to know where to look where to get the loot and that involves alt-tabbing. There is a problem that you might do everything all right but there is still a bug.

There is a problem is that you'll end up wasting lots of time instead of earning some reward.

But the REAL problem is that the whole balance now tends to shift towards the engineered powercreep, even for those who don't engineer. And still the very OP modules trivialise the gameplay and difficulty.

The loot shooters I know state clearly where to find your stuff. You go there, do your thing and if you get lucky you get a piece for the reward puzzle. There is progress. It's pretty clear. You get immediate feedback of success or "try again", you pretty much have an idea if you do it right or not.
Also there is a place "to go there" - in ED it's just another mishmash of POIs - you better keep your almanach in reach.

And if you don't find the new enemies that have been cooked up fun: Surprise, sucker, we just randomly spawned another tediously engineered bulletsponge for you, because why not.
 
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verminstar

Banned
I ignored the rngeers fer a year, up until 2 weeks ago when I decided to build a T9 and give it the casino treatment.

2 weeks later, and Im on the roade to colonia in a virtually unengineered T9 because its doin me head in bigtime, and if I dont go back to ignoring them, Im gonna break something expensive. They really are the most hateful crafting system Ive ever come across and it all comes down to their inane use of rng.

I dont really care what they do with them in 2.4, cos Im goin back to ignoring them entirely. My game was better before them and Ive spent 2 weeks stressing out over what has amounted to a waste of time and effort.

Its not lack of patience...if I lacked patience, I wouldnt be using a T9 to explore with a whopping 18ly range. Its the rng...that why I avoided them in the past and why Ill continue to ignore them in the future. I gave them a month and they left me deflated, unmotivated and fed up...to hell with them, hope they the first to get thargonated, good riddance to bad rubbish.

My m8 quit 6 months ago because of them...should have listened to the guy but no, verm had to make his own mistakes and learn the hard way ^
 
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I ignored the rngeers fer a year, up until 2 weeks ago when I decided to build a T9 and give it the casino treatment.

2 weeks later, and Im on the roade to colonia in a virtually unengineered T9 because its doin me head in bigtime, and if I dont go back to ignoring them, Im gonna break something expensive. They really are the most hateful crafting system Ive ever come across and it all comes down to their inane use of rng.

I dont really care what they do with them in 2.4, cos Im goin back to ignoring them entirely. My game was better before them and Ive spent 2 weeks stressing out over what has amounted to a waste of time and effort.

Its not lack of patience...if I lacked patience, I wouldnt be using a T9 to explore with a whopping 18ly range. Its the rng...that why I avoided them in the past and why Ill continue to ignore them in the future. I gave them a month and they left me deflated, unmotivated and fed up...to hell with them, hope they the first to get thargonated, good riddance to bad rubbish.

My m8 quit 6 months ago because of them...should have listened to the guy but no, verm had to make his own mistakes and learn the hard way ^

I don't have an issue with it, but I don't make it my purpose when I play the game. I will visit an engineer from time to time when I get the materials I need, but I don't go out of my way to get the materials and grind mission after mission after mission to get them.

If I see them, I will get them, If I don't I don't bother and that is the reason why most of my ships are not that engineered, just a few parts here and there. But at least I have fun playing the game and don't get frustrated by it, and every upgrade I get is a valuable upgrade.
 

verminstar

Banned
I don't have an issue with it, but I don't make it my purpose when I play the game. I will visit an engineer from time to time when I get the materials I need, but I don't go out of my way to get the materials and grind mission after mission after mission to get them.

If I see them, I will get them, If I don't I don't bother and that is the reason why most of my ships are not that engineered, just a few parts here and there. But at least I have fun playing the game and don't get frustrated by it, and every upgrade I get is a valuable upgrade.

Thats your game however, not mine. Remember Im an explorer who tends to avoid the bubble if at all possible, so Im very rarely here at all. I dont know where to harvest the coins or how unless I use out of game sources which I refuse to do on principle...if its not in the actual game, I aint interested so Ive hit a virtual brick wall head on.

But no...this has not been fun in any shape or form and Im sick to the back teeth with their inane use of layered rng...if ye guys are happy with them, then do as ye like cos I really dont care anymore. Im in danger of rage quitting last night over the frustration they cause me...enough is enough and its time to walk away ^
 
Thats your game however, not mine. Remember Im an explorer who tends to avoid the bubble if at all possible, so Im very rarely here at all. I dont know where to harvest the coins or how unless I use out of game sources which I refuse to do on principle...if its not in the actual game, I aint interested so Ive hit a virtual brick wall head on.

But no...this has not been fun in any shape or form and Im sick to the back teeth with their inane use of layered rng...if ye guys are happy with them, then do as ye like cos I really dont care anymore. Im in danger of rage quitting last night over the frustration they cause me...enough is enough and its time to walk away ^

Yea, how are you going to get those pneumatic instigators that drop in planetary mining settlement pois (but only when you're allied and the faction in control is no older than half a year and the leader is a female who fancies yellow cats for their furryness) when you are out there?

"Just play the game" they say, "There is no grind."
 
I ignored the rngeers fer a year, up until 2 weeks ago when I decided to build a T9 and give it the casino treatment.

2 weeks later, and Im on the roade to colonia in a virtually unengineered T9 because its doin me head in bigtime, and if I dont go back to ignoring them, Im gonna break something expensive. They really are the most hateful crafting system Ive ever come across and it all comes down to their inane use of rng.

I dont really care what they do with them in 2.4, cos Im goin back to ignoring them entirely. My game was better before them and Ive spent 2 weeks stressing out over what has amounted to a waste of time and effort.

Its not lack of patience...if I lacked patience, I wouldnt be using a T9 to explore with a whopping 18ly range. Its the rng...that why I avoided them in the past and why Ill continue to ignore them in the future. I gave them a month and they left me deflated, unmotivated and fed up...to hell with them, hope they the first to get thargonated, good riddance to bad rubbish.

My m8 quit 6 months ago because of them...should have listened to the guy but no, verm had to make his own mistakes and learn the hard way ^

I think the ethos of trying to give value to existing areas of the game by offering materials is fine. But too much of it then requires you to do things you don't want to, all to often for too long, all to often involving vapid grind orientated activities (Wake scanning? Really?). And possibly even doing illogical things like farming (destroying) passenger ships at a beacon just to get materials.

And then if we discuss the combat implications IMHO this has damaged the game, quite possibly - given FD don't seem to often remove/significantly change things - forever...
 
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A far better approach would be to have slots for upgrades. Every upgrade has benefits and drawbacks. Each ship module would have a specific number of upgrade slots that could be used, based on class and rating. You mix and match what goes into the upgrades you want on that module to get the performance you think will suit you best.

This is the best solution I've seen proposed so far.

And to people who think everybody will end up with the same optimal solutions; no they won't. At least, not if implemented and balanced properly.
People will need to compromise (limited slots) what upgrades they add to their components.

Just looking at weapons mods, some people may want to lower heat or energy usage so they can shoot continuously; others will want better or faster tracking; still others more damage-per-hit; others better damage resistance to offset running with less shields; explorers will want lower weight; etc etc etc.

It'll come down to personal playstyle and skill levels.
 
Thats your game however, not mine. Remember Im an explorer who tends to avoid the bubble if at all possible, so Im very rarely here at all. I dont know where to harvest the coins or how unless I use out of game sources which I refuse to do on principle...if its not in the actual game, I aint interested so Ive hit a virtual brick wall head on.

But no...this has not been fun in any shape or form and Im sick to the back teeth with their inane use of layered rng...if ye guys are happy with them, then do as ye like cos I really dont care anymore. Im in danger of rage quitting last night over the frustration they cause me...enough is enough and its time to walk away ^

As an explorer, there isn't much you need anyway. FSD upgrade is nice of course. You could probably go from zero to rank 5 with say a dozen hours effort and then be back out exploring.

As an explorer myself, although perhaps only 50% of my time is spent out in the black, i've found that now i've done the Engineers pretty much fully, i can get a new ship and fully engineer it with little effort, as i now have quite a decent stockpile of most materials. Occasional frustration occurs when i run out of something tricky to get, it can take me an hour or two to get some replacements, but overall not too bad.

The main pain with Engineers is when you are just starting out, and there is a massive list of things you need to do. Unlock Engineers, get materials, rank up, etc. When you face that, and face the multiple layers of RNG to achieve some of it, yeah, that can be a real turn off. But once you are through it, its worth it. At least if you spend a decent amount of time in the bubble.

Still, if you look at what areas Engineers are truly necessary for, only combat i would say it is really required. Yeah, you could say that anyone who plays in Open should also need to do it, regardless of activities, because you need to survive against random attacks from engineered ships... but that's always the choice whether to play in Open. If you are mining, trading, exploring, etc, then you don't really need Engineers, except to make life a little easier, especially in relation to FSD range.

Again, the multiple layers of RNG are a pain, not just with Engineers, and in post #8 i also presented some of my own ideas how FD could reduce the level of randomness.
 
The problem isn't so much that ED uses RNG, it's that the idiots that came up with Engineers thought that RNG was a good way to build a 'crafting' system. I can't think of any mainstream AAA games that use such a horribly botched approach to crafting as this.

A far better approach would be to have slots for upgrades. Every upgrade has benefits and drawbacks. Each ship module would have a specific number of upgrade slots that could be used, based on class and rating. You mix and match what goes into the upgrades you want on that module to get the performance you think will suit you best.

The player would still need to hunt down the materials required to manufacture the upgrade, and would still need to unlock various engineers in order to be able to craft them. Better upgrades would require higher quality materials, higher reputation with the engineer, a specific level of reputation with the local faction(s), specific ranking in the three main Pilots Federation careers, etc...

Each engineer would still be responsible for specific things, like they are now, but the ridiculously tedious idiocy of feeding the slot machine and hoping for a jackpot would be replaced by something that actually makes sense.

What we have now isn't crafting. It's Gambling Simulator.

I agree with you. They definitely need to come up with something that's more sensible and/or elegant. RNGineers is neither.

Nice idea. Originally i thought Engineers was going to be more about sliders. Move one value up, another one goes down. But FD have made it clear, they want Engineers to be about randomness, and that isn't going to change. There is a saying about choosing the battles you fight, and expecting FD to totally change Engineers from semi-random to fixed is a losing battle. Look to small specific areas that could generate a large improvement for the best possibility of FD making the change you want.

However, despite that, i'm one of those who actually enjoys the random aspect of the rolls themselves. I get a gamblers high off seeing those bars move back and forward, and now we have it that way, i'm actually very glad they did.

Where i would see the randomness reduced is in the gathering of materials, or as I noted in post #8, better guidance and reliability of the info presented in-game on the descriptions.
 
Engineers selling mats for money (let them be expensive), allowing exchange services, and offering mats as specific mission rewards, solves:

Randomness of getting specific mats
Does not cause explorers to have to go blowing up trade vessels in anarchy systems to get specific mats
Gives mats that are worthless once you have 20 of them, value again.

Sub-advantages:
I wouldn't be so bothered about picking up so much sulphur and iron if at least I could exchange them for an yttrium down the line.
I wouldn't cry so much about the pitiful amount of mats storage if I could trade my many many low level ones for some medium level ones.

It's really win, win, win.

Keep the roll model random, I kinda like it, it's exciting and if you go into it knowing that you need enough mats for 20 rolls if you want a decent one (more if you want a godlike one), then it's not like you can say you were cheated. Didn't get what you wanted? Bring more mats next time, now we've made it easier for you to get them!
 
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Thats your game however, not mine. Remember Im an explorer who tends to avoid the bubble if at all possible, so Im very rarely here at all. I dont know where to harvest the coins or how unless I use out of game sources which I refuse to do on principle...if its not in the actual game, I aint interested so Ive hit a virtual brick wall head on.

But no...this has not been fun in any shape or form and Im sick to the back teeth with their inane use of layered rng...if ye guys are happy with them, then do as ye like cos I really dont care anymore. Im in danger of rage quitting last night over the frustration they cause me...enough is enough and its time to walk away ^

I am in the same boat. I am an explorer most of the time as well, and I don't know where to harvest most of the stuff either. I get them through either missions or from planetary prospecting if I come across something while I am in my SRV. As I said, I don't go looking for materials, they come to me most of the time.

When I did my grade 5 FSD boost, I had all the materials, I have no idea how I got them though. That is why I have no issues with them, as I don't make them the reason why I play the game. The frustration comes is when you do and you end up grinding for materials.
 

verminstar

Banned
As an explorer, there isn't much you need anyway. FSD upgrade is nice of course. You could probably go from zero to rank 5 with say a dozen hours effort and then be back out exploring.

As an explorer myself, although perhaps only 50% of my time is spent out in the black, i've found that now i've done the Engineers pretty much fully, i can get a new ship and fully engineer it with little effort, as i now have quite a decent stockpile of most materials. Occasional frustration occurs when i run out of something tricky to get, it can take me an hour or two to get some replacements, but overall not too bad.

The main pain with Engineers is when you are just starting out, and there is a massive list of things you need to do. Unlock Engineers, get materials, rank up, etc. When you face that, and face the multiple layers of RNG to achieve some of it, yeah, that can be a real turn off. But once you are through it, its worth it. At least if you spend a decent amount of time in the bubble.

Still, if you look at what areas Engineers are truly necessary for, only combat i would say it is really required. Yeah, you could say that anyone who plays in Open should also need to do it, regardless of activities, because you need to survive against random attacks from engineered ships... but that's always the choice whether to play in Open. If you are mining, trading, exploring, etc, then you don't really need Engineers, except to make life a little easier, especially in relation to FSD range.

Again, the multiple layers of RNG are a pain, not just with Engineers, and in post #8 i also presented some of my own ideas how FD could reduce the level of randomness.

In all fairness, I have improved my lot a little bit...upped the dbe range from 32ly to 39ly and its a lot faster now, both in base and boost speed and a third less scanning time. The T9 is a trickier beast and could only manage increasing the range from 16 to 19, with about 20% increase in speed.

Its enough...has to be enough because I hit my patience threshold already...if I stick with them, Ill end up losing the plot entirely. Exploring aint some Frodo baggins affair, one simply does not set off in a T9 without a care in the world, and giving up on the casino is a big compromise...a necessary one. I gave them a chance despite being warned by others, but I know now their warnings were well justified and I wont be attempting them again, thats fer damned sure.

I can live with it...or rather without them and will go back to seeing them as a combat mechanic with very limited use in any other career. Wasnt fun while it lasted but whatever...Im already on the colonia road and not looking back. The only reason I came back here was to build the T9 and engineer it...one outta two aint bad I suppose and I did dabble a little enough to make a small difference. Now I get to put my money where my mouth is and prove to meself that range really isnt an issue. If I fail in this journey, then Ill walk away from the game entirely as I currently dont feel theres anything to go back to...this was always a make or break project to me after the beigification issue ^
 
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The issue here and in the gaming community in general (i place it at certain peoples heads with apparent VIP status in the community is the following)

- You do not appear to understand how the use of random numbers is actually implemented (granted its not awesomely documented either). It is not pure randomness, there is a probability distribution function applied where the random number is what is input. Some basic understanding of stats and mathematics will let you understand that.

But because like i said, a few people the community appears to worship just said "I dont like RNG" it became a meme almost, and everyone thus must follow what those VIPs say.

You lot also don't actually appear to understand how the real world works (minus a few people who have said basically what I am going to say)

Everything in production has tolerances and no two objects that roll off of a production line will have absolutely identical properties. So two cars made at the same time, the same day, and then mods performed (after-market) by the same garage. Those two cars will have different performance both before the mods and after and, it wont be equal differences before and after either.

Same for CPUs

On a single wafer intel/amd will produce lets say, 20 CPUs, they will do cutting, wire-bonding, and then they will go into a test setup. What you will get is a a bunch of dead chips but what you are after is a clock frequency vs heat/powerconsumption distribution. The ones that produce too much heat will typically be clocked back and sold as a lesser model, the ones that are in the middle of the bell curve and put to market as the regular version, and the ones that produce less heat and can run at higher clock speed will then be factory setup at the higher clock and marketed as some special edition. This is a well known process and some computer producers will sign contracts with companies to get a specific part of that production curve for their machines... Apple did it with the 5th generation, they wanted the Fast Cool chips only for their laptops and contracted intel not to sell CPUs from within that spec to anyone else for a period also...

This is a real life example that you guys and gals should actually know.... but it seems like it escapes most of you who just jump on the subject that quite clearly you think you don't like, but, in most cases you dont really understand, but OPINIONS! ZOMG!

What the issue is with gaming these days is that the younger generation want to just get rewarded for everything straight away, and the older feel entitled not to have to work for anything because "Im important, and I dont have time to faff around all day"

RNG is not perfect, and could do with some more documentation, some good solid QA stream back at HQ and even a better interface to show what the distribution functions are for engineers (as an example) This attitude of a ban hammer everything should be the same would just ruin the vibrance of modding a ship and getting that special one hit
 
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