The reason the Xenobiology minigame didn't work, and how to fix it.

[DemiserofD]

Tetris is the perfect example of a simple game that works. In Tetris, you have a simple puzzle: figure out how the falling block can best fit into the existing pattern. This is improved via time pressure: The blocks fall, and the rate of fall gradually speeds up, and the ground gets closer.

This has multiple effects. It gives a dopamine response every time you succeed, and an adrenaline response every time you face pressure. Adrenaline in the brain in absence of a threat is recognized by the brain as enjoying yourself.

Now, let's consider the Xenobiology minigame.

• Firstly, there's no puzzle. The correct sequence of lines and bars is already laid out for you, so there's no thought required, you just need to wait for it to line up.
• Secondly, there's no time pressure. You can do the minigame as many times as you like, for as long as you like, with zero consequences for failure.
• Lastly, there's no reward for doing particularly well. So what if you do it quickly or slowly? The reward is the same all the same.

The net result? Rather than being an enjoyable minigame like Tetris, you have a boring, painful slog. But it doesn't have to be this way.

1. Add a puzzle. Rather than perfectly matching bars provided from the start, allow the player to shuffle in randomly-generated sequences of bars, requiring only a close enough match to succeed. This requires the player to engage their brains and think.
2. Add time pressure. This could be achieved in a variety of ways, whether via the puzzle itself(the plant is wilting as you scan it! Scan faster before it dies!) or via the environment(the planet is extremely hot/cold/toxic! Finish the game quickly before your suit runs out of power!
3. Establish rewards in accordance with player performance. If the player plays poorly, they will only get the codex entry and perhaps a single sample. Play particularly well? Begin to reward them with exponentially more valuable samples, corresponding to the increased difficulty.

The net result of this is a game that engages the brain, triggers an adrenaline response, and then a dopamine response. It rewards you for good play, without punishing for bad play.

And that's all you really need for a good, enjoyable minigame.

 

[Burstar1]

This is the kind of myopic thinking that got us into this mess to begin with. Congratulations on completing Psych 101 or Game Crafting for beginners, but, you forget the ONE thing that Elite has that sets itself apart from all the other entries in the genre: its immersion.

To use your specific example, Tetris. I like Tetris. Have enjoyed it since it first came out on my old monochrome LCD Gameboy. I DO NOT PLAY ELITE FOR TETRIS GAMEPLAY. I don't care how fun the minigame is if it has nothing to do with the context of the action or world I'm experiencing. It becomes a clear, obvious waste of time (something the game has WAY too much of already). Along these lines, Dr. Mario would have been a better minigame example because it AT LEAST has SOMETHING to do with life and has Doctor in the title. It still isn't near close enough to be a compliment to the game's immersion.

A proper minigame example would have been something similar to lockpicking in many RPG's. They typically require finesse, increase in difficulty, and most importantly, ARE APPROPRIATE FOR THE ACTION IT REPRESENTS. Spinny circles go brr? How the F does that have anything to do with taking genetic samples? THAT is why the minigame failed.

 

[Revan2610]

I always thought something like one of Star Trek Onlines minigames would have been cool for exobiology - instead of matching waveform modulation, you had to line up DNA markers or something like that.

 

[DemiserofD]

This is the kind of myopic thinking that got us into this mess to begin with. Congratulations on completing Psych 101 or Game Crafting for beginners, but, you forget the ONE thing that Elite has that sets itself apart from all the other entries in the genre: its immersion.

Immersion is actually super easy to add. Just throw in some flavor text or diagrams to make things look right.

So for the minigame, you might have strands of DNA instead of bars and spaces. You're categorizing and doing an initial analysis of its DNA analogue.

Pow, immersion fixed.

But frankly, immersion is secondary to a well-designed game. It doesn't matter how authentic something feels if it's super boring. That's why Indiana Jones runs through trapped temples rather than spending a few years slowly brushing dirt off pot shards.

 

[BL1P]

Hmm I prefer it as it is now.
I just want to collect a sample as fast as possible and add it to the list of samples I already have.
I do think the samples should take up space though. Far too much handwavium going on now with inventory's.

Extra mini game puzzle stuff could be optional at your FCs lab or something.

 

[Hydrino]

If they never ask the fans what they want to see then how could they achieve it?

[edit: sorry, this is Long winded and round-about way to explain how to make xenobiology game loops more interesting, integrated and "fun". But really the entire rest of the game and experience.]

What would help here is actual management and 360 degree communication by the Community Management team via continuously running Focused Feedback threads. They would include the CM team gives some indication back on the locked OP of what the Dev team took from it and might be able to do with the feedback, and if it will be near or long-term or currently down-prioritized.

The logical place to start would be a FF Thread on what the community desires from the CM team and how we view "community management" and engagement. This is also how the suggestions forum should really work (or else its a pointless forum), with a dedicated CM member tagging and grouping suggestions, getting them ranked by likes, number of repeats or similar ideas, and doing some Focsed Feedback on the most common ones. The topics should take at least one full week each, with gaps for holidays, and I doubt they would ever run out. Many posts scattered across the forums could be moved by the mods to the suggestions thread as well, since they are basically suggestions. Some targeted few FF threads would also involve new feature design documents, like the genetic sampling mini-game and Elite rank, major UI changes, and similar things where the community could compliment the ideas FD already have (and I know there are no shortage of ideas, FD internally probably has thousands, but leverage the player base to refine them to please the customers to generate sales.)

On top of that, have a regular schedule (6 month intervals, yearly, just commit to it and stick to it regardless of CM team changes) of high-level updates on the long-term vision of major paid deliverables or technology as mentioned multiple years in a row since Kickstarter. Of course this revolves firstly around core Stellar Forge tech and development like gas giants, water worlds, volcanic worlds, worlds with life and full Earth-likes with cities, but also some other mentioned features like ship interiors, etc. This series of updates should be required reading / viewing by all new development/CM team members. Add in a "peek of the week" or so and some regularly scheduled game stats updates and FD would have a winning forumula! (yes, I said "Forum"ula, LOL). This would drive customer engagement, positivity and sales due to players wanting to support the vision as well as buying any given release.

They can't and wouldn't implement every idea, but some big picture items should come of it that would please most of the community with FD of course always being in the decision maker's seat. The recent dev update and Sally's very visible participation in the forums are a start in this direction but not a full move. Basically a throwback to post Horizons comms, which were themselves reduced from 2012-2014 in style and substance, and been getting less and less ever since (despite some roller-coaster ups, the comms trend has generally been on the decline to less info).

Making it amazing would involve some love for the websites to also convey in ongoing manner different aspects of the game (planets explored, Earth likes found, light years traversed, tons of goods mined, traded, alien races/ruins discovered, etc.). There are examples of some of this out there already for other games like NMS. Also the Microsoft Flight Simulator development team and Sub-Nautica have interesting feature development interactions with their fans.

In short, FDev should strive to be THE LEADERS in this area of the industry as well as their games and sales growth.

However, I am not holding my breath and expectations are non-existent. If we are lucky they are still working in the background on the longer term and maintainable communications and engagement vision. Almost anything would be better than playing the game badly on YouTube for 200 folks that are mostly hanging out for information drops that never come.

The description above is (somewhat crazily), basically the communications process they had during the Kickstarter period. Despite praising the success of the entire ED Kickstarter experience, as soon as V1.0 was launched FD (David Braben?) dropped the communications style like a hot potato (and without any comment as to why).

 

[The Roofus]

If they never ask the fans what they want to see then how could they achieve it?

"The fans" what different things, so which one's do the listen to?

In short, FDev should strive to be THE LEADERS in this area of the industry as well as their games and sales growth.

They're doing fine financially mate - Elite isn't their biggest game by a long shot, it's literally just a passion project for the CEO at this point.

 

[Dextio]

"The fans" what different things, so which one's do the listen to?



They're doing fine financially mate - Elite isn't their biggest game by a long shot, it's literally just a passion project for the CEO at this point.

Yeah...they just landed a deal w/universal to do Jurassic World Evolution 2...Pretty sure they're fine.

 

[DemiserofD]

Hmm I prefer it as it is now.
I just want to collect a sample as fast as possible and add it to the list of samples I already have.

Sure; this new way would absolutely allow that. You just open the game, let it run its 'starter' analysis, and then hit the 'finish' button. You've collected your sample. But you also get no bonus for analyzing the DNA.

But it also opens up the potential for players who wish to do so to play the game and improve at the game, gaining increasing rewards for doing so. You land on a planet that's 1000 degrees and has a toxic atmosphere, so you desperately need to complete as many rows as possible before your ~30 seconds of power run out.

Basically, this would take nothing away from you, but would add content for others that want it. Everyone wins.

 

[Drelthar]

Tetris is the perfect example of a simple game that works. In Tetris, you have a simple puzzle: figure out how the falling block can best fit into the existing pattern. This is improved via time pressure: The blocks fall, and the rate of fall gradually speeds up, and the ground gets closer.

This has multiple effects. It gives a dopamine response every time you succeed, and an adrenaline response every time you face pressure. Adrenaline in the brain in absence of a threat is recognized by the brain as enjoying yourself.

Now, let's consider the Xenobiology minigame.

• Firstly, there's no puzzle. The correct sequence of lines and bars is already laid out for you, so there's no thought required, you just need to wait for it to line up.
• Secondly, there's no time pressure. You can do the minigame as many times as you like, for as long as you like, with zero consequences for failure.
• Lastly, there's no reward for doing particularly well. So what if you do it quickly or slowly? The reward is the same all the same.

The net result? Rather than being an enjoyable minigame like Tetris, you have a boring, painful slog. But it doesn't have to be this way.

1. Add a puzzle. Rather than perfectly matching bars provided from the start, allow the player to shuffle in randomly-generated sequences of bars, requiring only a close enough match to succeed. This requires the player to engage their brains and think.
2. Add time pressure. This could be achieved in a variety of ways, whether via the puzzle itself(the plant is wilting as you scan it! Scan faster before it dies!) or via the environment(the planet is extremely hot/cold/toxic! Finish the game quickly before your suit runs out of power!
3. Establish rewards in accordance with player performance. If the player plays poorly, they will only get the codex entry and perhaps a single sample. Play particularly well? Begin to reward them with exponentially more valuable samples, corresponding to the increased difficulty.

The net result of this is a game that engages the brain, triggers an adrenaline response, and then a dopamine response. It rewards you for good play, without punishing for bad play.

And that's all you really need for a good, enjoyable minigame.

I get where you are trying to go, but:

While adding a "puzzle" isn't necessarily a bad idea - it works for -analysing- the sample, not collecting it (well, you could do a puzzle based on taking a sample, something about cutting the right spots, or lasering them, or whatever, in the right order to get the best sample, but I digress)

Time pressure is a poor idea for exploration gameplay. It's not how explorers tend to play, you can achieve something similar by doing the opposite, and making accurate (or smart), but not time based actions matter, so taking more time, is probably better for you.

I would probably only make the credit rewards scale based on performance, removing the information that explorers get when researching because they didn't quite do something perfectly is a pretty harsh thing to do to players who, mainly, want to gain information and do sciency stuff, the credits are likely secondary to them.

I would advocate for a mini game that actually makes sense for taking a sample, not analysing it (that could be done elsewhere possibly though, as a separate mini game)

So it would be about cutting, gripping, scraping, extracting from, etc, not some kind of data based thing.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I wouldn't mind seeing a mini-game but i agree with those who are saying that there will likely be resistance to it.
I dunno what it is with gamers these days but they don't seem to like doing things in games anymore.
Might be grind burnout, if they play that way...who knows...but there's something going on...it keeps on coming up on the forums.

 

[Drelthar]

I wouldn't mind seeing a mini-game but i agree with those who are saying that there will likely be resistance to it.
I dunno what it is with gamers these days but they don't seem to like doing things in games anymore.
Might be grind burnout, if they play that way...who knows...but there's something going on...it keeps on coming up on the forums.

It's fine as long as the thing you are doing isn't just crap, and, possibly more importantly, makes sense in context.

Aside from the fact the exploration mini game was amateur mobile game level design, it also didn't make sense in the context of what was happening.
You were supposed to be taking a sample, but the minigame was analyzing something, it didn't make sense

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

It's fine as long as the thing you are doing isn't just crap, and, possibly more importantly, makes sense in context.

Aside from the fact the exploration mini game was amateur mobile game level design, it also didn't make sense in the context of what was happening.
You were supposed to be taking a sample, but the minigame was analyzing something, it didn't make sense

Yea, i agree it didn't make much sense. I would have had it that you scanned it for the data, then analysed it either on the machine or elsewhere. I probably would have used sound in some elements because what sci-fi ppl don't like weird sounds...many ways.
I think it's important for there to be an analysis, there's a lot they could do with that regarding story, goids/aliens, drugs/pharmaceuticals and such.
I'm not against it but getting the balance right regards fun/time would seem important.

 

[DemiserofD]

It would make a degree of sense for the analysis to take place immediately; the sample could degrade after being harvested, for example, especially if brought into a different environment. Perhaps you're looking for how it survives in that particular environment, including pressure, temperature, ambient radiation, etc. Changing any one of those things could corrupt the results.

Ideal measurements are taken in the field; the only reason we don't do so now is because we can't carry that equipment around easily. But there's a reason we set up research bases in inhospitable areas like the poles instead of hauling samples back and analyzing them here.

And besides; if you're moving it anyway, why bother doing a partial analysis on your ship? You can just as easily haul it all the way back to the vista genomics center and let them do it there.

No, it makes perfect sense to do the analysis minigame immediately. The key is, you shouldn't need to do so, just to take a sample.

 

[hydlided]

Ok, let's do this in real life then. You go to google maps and you have to do a mini game before you unlock your GPS...
I would bet the amount of questions would raise by the thousands... if not millions.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Ok, let's do this in real life then. You go to google maps and you have to do a mini game before you unlock your GPS...
I would bet the amount of questions would raise by the thousands... if not millions.

A game is not real life or you'd be flying a space ship and i'd actually be eating humans.

 

[hydlided]

A game is not real life or you'd be flying a space ship and i'd actually be eating humans.

A game should be fun, adding mini games to do something just to waste your time isn't fun.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

A game should be fun, adding mini games to do something just to waste your time isn't fun.

Yet, if the mini-game gave you information on what you just analysed, then it would have some use, yes?
I might like a faraday cage type thing to experiment on some things, for example.
That might be fun.
I'm not talking about adding things for a time sync, but for something a little bit different to play with, as in variety of actions.

 

[Drelthar]

It would make a degree of sense for the analysis to take place immediately; the sample could degrade after being harvested, for example, especially if brought into a different environment. Perhaps you're looking for how it survives in that particular environment, including pressure, temperature, ambient radiation, etc. Changing any one of those things could corrupt the results.

Ideal measurements are taken in the field; the only reason we don't do so now is because we can't carry that equipment around easily. But there's a reason we set up research bases in inhospitable areas like the poles instead of hauling samples back and analyzing them here.

And besides; if you're moving it anyway, why bother doing a partial analysis on your ship? You can just as easily haul it all the way back to the vista genomics center and let them do it there.

No, it makes perfect sense to do the analysis minigame immediately. The key is, you shouldn't need to do so, just to take a sample.

Yes, sure.

But then, the Genetic Sampler, needs to be renamed to the Genetic Analyser, and the whole, sample canister thing should probably be re-worked, because you're no longer taking a sample, just analysing something in situ.

 

[DemiserofD]

Yes, sure.

But then, the Genetic Sampler, needs to be renamed to the Genetic Analyser, and the whole, sample canister thing should probably be re-worked, because you're no longer taking a sample, just analysing something in situ.

I'd like it to do both.

The sample is for the Codex. For completionists, that's all you'd need.

The minigame is for credits and entertainment. Maybe throw in a few slight benefits, like the further you make it in the minigame, the shorter distance you need to go to find sufficient genetic diversity.