Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Brian of Earth]

If this thread continues to discuss the three game modes then it will be merged into this thread.

Maybe it should, then get retired.

Personally I'm sick of seeing posts that treat Solo/Group play as some sort of parasite on the real intention of Open play, with is to provide targets for pirates and griefers and we are somehow ruining the experience and game math for those that really love the game, those being the Open play pirate/griefers.. like my money and time/effort aren't nearly as significant as the "everyone must play Open" crowd.

Merging this with the main "All I Want To Do Is Shoot Other Players" thread would make it easier to ignore..

 

[Seonid]

As I wrote, everything other than PvP can be done in a private PvE group or in solo.

No, you said Open is for PvP only and only PvP. I can quote you again if you need?

 

[smiths121]

I use open to meet other players and do a bit of co-op and occassional PvP.

By the way, myself and an other player were remembering the Lough CSGs, really was a fantastic event over 2 weeks. I never took part in the Bounty Hunting CSGS, as Ihad a type-6 but had great fun running guns in open at Kahka. Learnt a lot about running away over those 2 weeks!. Met players still on my friends list, some I game with every week now.

I hope one of the stories, whether layer driven or FD driven moves to a set of competing Comunity Goals, although all CSGs are opposed I think FD were onto something with the Competiing Simultaneous competing goals.
I find myself agreeing with the OP and his soluution to his boredom with the game.

Simon

Maybe the game as a whole is not PvP, but does Open Play have any other purpose than PvP?

 

[xondk]

In a pure PvE environment you would just say "Hi" or ignore that CMDR.

While I understand what you are saying, this just isn't true, I enjoy open games because I might meet random people, unknown people, be it just saying hi in space, or a station, or talking and maybe ending up helping or flying together with a total random person, this can be both pve and pvp, You seem to ignore the fact that you can begin to 'talk' to people, rather then just saying hi or ignoring, though granted if your experience is that all people do is just say hi, or ignore, I can't fault that a lot do.

 

[DarkWalker]

Basically, I think the answer to this is communication, allowing people to organize easier without having to find a group, for example, if newbies are getting attacked by a specific group of people, they could post a bulletin asking for help, telling who it was, since that would be an entirely ingame way of doing it. And naming should naturally be allowed ingame.

I am biased, given that I absolutely don't ask for help inside a game, but I don't think this would have much effect in the specific case you mentioned. A newbie usually has little attachment to the game and doesn't know their way around it, so unless the boards were in their face it wouldn't work. It also would require having a number of older players still hanging around the starter systems and willing to escort newbies; contrary to most MMOs, travel time in ED means that a player must not only be willing to help, but also already close to the player that needs help, and with that restriction I don't think there would be enough willing players to make a difference even if the newbies learned to use the boards.

I'm not against adding more and better ways to communicate in-game, mind; I just don't think it will solve the issues you have in mind.

---

Sigh. I never said people should be forced to play in Open, rather I merely said they should be encouraged... and only in the specific case of Power Play. Believe it or not, I actually mainly play PP in Solo, simply because it's the most efficient way to get the large amount of merits (and time) necessary for a Rating with a decent reward. If FD changed it so this was no-longer true, then I'd be much more likely to switch to Open.

Sadly it seems this kind of misunderstanding of my post was unavoidable, because my thread was merged with this seemingly-unrelated thread that appears to be mainly arguing for/against forcing people into Open. :-(

Encouraging and forcing is basically the same thing, they just differ in the intensity.

---

Two There's no reason for non combat professions to play in open inflating the number of players who pvp.

And, IMHO, there should never be a reason for someone that wants to avoid PvP to play in a mode where PvP is possible. A player should never be penalized just because he doesn't want to be antagonized by other players.

Which seems to be at the core of ED's initial pitch. The first mention of Multiplayer in the Kickstart was telling about doing co-op missions. The first sentence in the description of how multiplayer would work is "you will be able to control who else you might encounter in your game – perhaps limit it to just your friends?". It was clear from the start that playing with those that might shoot at you would be optional, a choice left to the player.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

I've updated my first post (bold part), as I had a brainwave. It avoids penalising Solo players of PP in any fashion, and instead gets rid of (my) major reason for Soloing PP even when Open should be more fun

edit: Unfortunately I suspect this insight will be entirely under appreciated here, because this thread is about Solo vs Open, while I'm trying to discuss how to improve Power Play...

I expect the big issue would be what constitutes a "casual" CMDR? Do you mean something like "No merit decay below L3, so only the hardcore L4 and 5 have to work to maintain their levels?"
-
Would this create an imbalance where CMDRs ground out their own PP level in Solo and then went into Open to disrupt others efforts through pvp? Or if everyone thought this way, there would be gangs of bored "defenders" all waiting for the "attackers" to come into their patch?

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Because the only thing that differentiates Open Mode form large private PvE groups is PvP. Open Mode is about PvP and only about PvP, about pure and simple PvP.
…

…

As I wrote, everything other than PvP can be done in a private PvE group or in solo.…

No, you said Open is for PvP only and only PvP. I can quote you again if you need?

I wrote that everything that can be done in Open mode beside PvP can be done in a private PvE group. That's an important part of what I wrote. Remove PvP from Open mode and the result is a very large PvE "private" group. Add PvP to a private Group and you get a mini "open" mode. PvP is the difference between Open mode and a very large private PvE group. If a player doesn't want PvP, but wants to interact with other players in a non hostile way that player can join a private PvE group. If a player joins Open Mode he (probably) gets more players to interact with, but at the same time he's always a part of PvP (he can get attacked, he has to avoid getting attacked).

Since players can't opt out of PvP in Open mode, the main aspect of Open mode is PvP. Every other game mode has the option to be completely without PvP. That can be direct PvP by shooting each other or indirect PvP by trying to avoid getting attacked.

That leads me to my "Open mode is about PvP and only PvP" part: Open mode is a open world PvP mode. Players in Open mode can always* get attacked by other players. There is no way to avoid the possibility of getting attacked*.
The result is, that every aspect of Open mode is influenced by PvP. Every player interaction is influenced by PvP, therefore Open mode is about PvP. Since everything else can be done in other modes Open mode is about PvP. Not being able to avoid PvP is the only thing that differentiates Open Mode from the other modes.
Sure, players can do a lot of different things beside shooting each other and most player do other things most of the time, but that doesn't change the fact that PvP is always a possibility and that (most) players in open act accordingly. IF they don't want PvP, then they can join a private PvE group. Why would somebody play in Open mode if he doesn't want PvP to affect his game play (by fighting other CMDRs or by avoiding getting attacked by others).


In a shorter way: If somebody doesn't want PvP, then Open mode isn't the best choice as there are large PvE only groups where the player can do everything that can be done in Open mode without having to think about PvP.

That's why I wrote that Open mode is about PvP and only PvP. Everything other than PvP can be found in large private PvE groups. Guess I should have written it differently.

…, rather then just saying hi or ignoring, though granted if your experience is that all people do is just say hi, or ignore, I can't fault that a lot do.

Think of saying "Hi" as the beginning of a potential conversation. I meant that there are two options in a pure PvE environment: communication or ignoring. In a PvP environment there is a third option: combat. Sorry for the confusion.
In open mode that third option is always present. Chances are often low that the other CMDR will attack, but it's there and it influences the way somebody plays in open mode.

An "open" PvE mode would be nice. No PvP, lots of CMDRs to chat or work with - a big Coop mode. I think players would be more willing to talk to each other without the fear of getting attacked.


*) beside being docked - are there other situations where a player can't get attacked in open mode? Doesn't really matter as in most situations a player can get attacked in open mode.

 

[Serapo]

Nah, just go and play Call of Duty.

Jokes aside, I agree on the statement that solo play should not affect open.

 

[askavir]

Maybe the game as a whole is not PvP, but does Open Play have any other purpose than PvP?

There are players who want to play WITH other people, not necessarily AGAINST other people all the time.

Assuming that PvP is "the intended gameplay" of Elite is a very far stretch.

I like the possibility of being attacked, I like the sense of possible danger, but I rarely actively seek PvP. And I honestly would not have bought this game if it was just yet another shooting game.

 

[Lestenio]

Why do you instantly think that Open is all about being shot at? Power Play is supposed to be about working as a group for a specific goal.

If it isn't, why do you care where people play.
is it really just the joy of seeing a hollow point on the scanner.

 

[Schmack]

Some here seem to have either ignored or forgotten what the "v" in PvP means. It means "versus" which means to be against. It doesn't mean interact with or meet. In Open, you can enter a RES site and maybe see a human player being ganged up on, and in trouble. You can jump to their aid. That's not PvP. You can see a guy hunting pirates and tell him "hey, there's a RES site a couple systems over that has a much better spawn rate, let's go check it out' and not be PvP. You can find someone hauling goods and trade route information with them, and that's not PvP. You can find another player 200 LY from civilized space and have a conversation about where they've been and exchange notes. That's not PvP. You can find another miner who's hunting pristine belts and share what you know with them, and explore these belts together. That's not PvP.

None of these things are possible in Solo or Group (Mobius notwithstanding since it's just a smaller version of Open, you just have a lower chance of meeting people, but the people you meet are likely going to be amicable to interaction outside of "kill or be killed".

So to say Open is about PvP is wrong, and by extension of course to say ED is about PvP is wrong. There is iron in my words of death, so then there is iron in my words of life.

 

[Lestenio]

Some here seem to have either ignored or forgotten what the "v" in PvP means. It means "versus" which means to be against. It doesn't mean interact with or meet. In Open, you can enter a RES site and maybe see a human player being ganged up on, and in trouble. You can jump to their aid. That's not PvP. You can see a guy hunting pirates and tell him "hey, there's a RES site a couple systems over that has a much better spawn rate, let's go check it out' and not be PvP. You can find someone hauling goods and trade route information with them, and that's not PvP. You can find another player 200 LY from civilized space and have a conversation about where they've been and exchange notes. That's not PvP. You can find another miner who's hunting pristine belts and share what you know with them, and explore these belts together. That's not PvP.

None of these things are possible in Solo or Group (Mobius notwithstanding since it's just a smaller version of Open, you just have a lower chance of meeting people, but the people you meet are likely going to be amicable to interaction outside of "kill or be killed".

So to say Open is about PvP is wrong, and by extension of course to say ED is about PvP is wrong. There is iron in my words of death, so then there is iron in my words of life.

I think you just described the perfect PvE experience. While I like your utopian view, many would argue that is not what open is.

 

[askavir]

Some here seem to have either ignored or forgotten what the "v" in PvP means. It means "versus" which means to be against. It doesn't mean interact with or meet. In Open, you can enter a RES site and maybe see a human player being ganged up on, and in trouble. You can jump to their aid. That's not PvP. You can see a guy hunting pirates and tell him "hey, there's a RES site a couple systems over that has a much better spawn rate, let's go check it out' and not be PvP. You can find someone hauling goods and trade route information with them, and that's not PvP. You can find another player 200 LY from civilized space and have a conversation about where they've been and exchange notes. That's not PvP. You can find another miner who's hunting pristine belts and share what you know with them, and explore these belts together. That's not PvP.

None of these things are possible in Solo or Group (Mobius notwithstanding since it's just a smaller version of Open, you just have a lower chance of meeting people, but the people you meet are likely going to be amicable to interaction outside of "kill or be killed".

So to say Open is about PvP is wrong, and by extension of course to say ED is about PvP is wrong. There is iron in my words of death, so then there is iron in my words of life.

Agreed.

Elite, including open mode, is not a PvP-centered game, and thank Odin for it.

I'ts a multiplayer sandbox game with the possibility of PvP, or PvE, or simply P activities, but fortunately Elite is much more than just a PvP shooting game.

 

[DarkWalker]

Some here seem to have either ignored or forgotten what the "v" in PvP means. It means "versus" which means to be against. It doesn't mean interact with or meet. In Open, you can enter a RES site and maybe see a human player being ganged up on, and in trouble. You can jump to their aid. That's not PvP. You can see a guy hunting pirates and tell him "hey, there's a RES site a couple systems over that has a much better spawn rate, let's go check it out' and not be PvP. You can find someone hauling goods and trade route information with them, and that's not PvP. You can find another player 200 LY from civilized space and have a conversation about where they've been and exchange notes. That's not PvP. You can find another miner who's hunting pristine belts and share what you know with them, and explore these belts together. That's not PvP.

None of these things are possible in Solo or Group (Mobius notwithstanding since it's just a smaller version of Open, you just have a lower chance of meeting people, but the people you meet are likely going to be amicable to interaction outside of "kill or be killed".

So to say Open is about PvP is wrong, and by extension of course to say ED is about PvP is wrong. There is iron in my words of death, so then there is iron in my words of life.

Which is the perfect argument for why an official Open PvE mode is sorely needed

 

[Dave1235]

Which is the perfect argument for why an official Open PvE mode is sorely needed

Maybe we should fix have a vote on it

I am sure a new pve thread would get derailed and closed as quickly as the last one, but I am 100% behind a pve option in the menu, why should the > 90% of owners be excluded from pve because they don't read the forums.

 

[Schmack]

I think you just described the perfect PvE experience. While I like your utopian view, many would argue that is not what open is.

That's what it is if the player in it makes it that way for themselves. Open is the exact same as every other mode except you have more real humans in it. PvP is a big part of it, sure, but the game isn't laid out in such a way as to suggest PvP is its intended game play style.

 

[Faded Glory]

That's what it is if the player in it makes it that way for themselves. Open is the exact same as every other mode except you have more real humans in it. PvP is a big part of it, sure, but the game isn't laid out in such a way as to suggest PvP is its intended game play style.

The thing is, that while PvP may or may not be the intended play style, in Open it is still a totally acceptable one, in whichever form it happens to take, including non consensual and blatantly un matched. Since there is no mechanism to opt out of a type of PvP that someone might wish to engage in (for example, a player wants to be interdicted and robbed by a pirate, but not blown out of space for no apparent reason), then an Open/PvE mode would very likely attract a great many players.

That may be why it was so vigorously opposed by a few from the Open only camp.

 

[Kastor]

The thing is, that while PvP may or may not be the intended play style, in Open it is still a totally acceptable one, in whichever form it happens to take, including non consensual and blatantly un matched. Since there is no mechanism to opt out of a type of PvP that someone might wish to engage in (for example, a player wants to be interdicted and robbed by a pirate, but not blown out of space for no apparent reason), then an Open/PvE mode would very likely attract a great many players.

That may be why it was so vigorously opposed by a few from the Open only camp.

As someone who is definitely in the open preferred camp. Yes, yes it is.

Piracy (at least pvp piracy which is the most fun) requires people in the PvP mode that don't want to actively partake in PvP to work. Someone who wants to partake in pvp will trade in a decent asp or python loadout... you don't want to pirate that. Not without a wing of powerful ships.

I'm a simple pirate of simple means, I need the players in t6s and t7s to stay in PvP open.

 

[Faded Glory]

As someone who is definitely in the open preferred camp. Yes, yes it is.

Piracy (at least pvp piracy which is the most fun) requires people in the PvP mode that don't want to actively partake in PvP to work. Someone who wants to partake in pvp will trade in a decent asp or python loadout... you don't want to pirate that. Not without a wing of powerful ships.

I'm a simple pirate of simple means, I need the players in t6s and t7s to stay in PvP open.

Well, you weren't really the type of PvP advocate I was referring to.

I actually believe that piracy is badly served by the 'anything goes' ethos of Open, because a player who wants to role play being a trader who gets pirated would (I imagine) be quite happy to play in an Open environment where they could not be destroyed for no reason. And while piracy is for sure PvP, it's not strictly speaking combat.

How such role play could be incorporated into an Open/PvE mode I'm not sure, and of course, the natural predator to the pirate, the bounty hunter would not work there either. It's a tricky one, but the idea of a properly advertised PvE mode is not unreasonable, and in the long term shouldn't make that much difference to Open, as someone who jumps in and has a bad experience probably doesn't stay there long anyway.

 

[Dave1235]

As someone who is definitely in the open preferred camp. Yes, yes it is.

Piracy (at least pvp piracy which is the most fun) requires people in the PvP mode that don't want to actively partake in PvP to work. Someone who wants to partake in pvp will trade in a decent asp or python loadout... you don't want to pirate that. Not without a wing of powerful ships.

I'm a simple pirate of simple means, I need the players in t6s and t7s to stay in PvP open.

I only play in open in my type6 when I fancy some rares trading. I have an aversion to certain words (Cowardly, Hiding etc) and when I see them it tends to remind me that I really don't want to play with the people saying those things, so I avoid open.

I also like the risk & RP of getting taxed by a proper pirate which only really happens in open.

Shame really as if the crime structure worked better and the insults on the forum slowed down you would stand a much better chance of earning some decent profit from me, for a proper pirate that caught me with 5 tons of rares I would say "meet me at x in 90 mins, your 25% will be worth a lot more".