Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Jockey79]

........a lot of people are hyped about Star Citizen, ......

For the wrong reasons it would seem.
I've lost count how many times I've had to correct someone when they describe the features of the game wrong.
And the best part is, I have no interest in the game, I've not spent anything on it and I have no plans to go near it - yet I'm having to point out its features.
The main one being, there is no forced PvP in it, as they say it will have private servers (connected to the PU) and a slider for player interactions, so people can PvE the game.

Again proving, people do not read properly or jump to conclusions. Just like people have and still do with Elite: Dangerous and the features here.

 

[Marra Morgan]

I actually have a degree in general management, sales and marketing.

Oooo!

I've got a Rocketmonkey!

<3 internet

 

[Gidio]

So you have paperwork to show that you know the theory - trust me when I say, theory and practical application are 2 different beasts altogether.
Shown by your lack of communication skills in your OP and how it lead to the wrong thing - a merger into the pit of doom.
All your back tracking is also not helping, you must have covered how to exit a failing conversation properly and that backtracking makes you look guilty of trying to be deceitful.

So, if I were you - I'd get my money back on that course. Also, you may not want to criticise others on their communications until you've mastered yours.

Oh and a helpful hint - Soliluna hit the nail on the head;
"They do engage with the players, the fact that they do not do so in every thread is because we, as players, regurgitate the same discussions and it would be a waste of their time to reiterate again and again simply because we have opened yet another discussion on the subject."

And in regards to this topic, again if you want communications - see the last link in my Sig, 2 and a half years of information by FD.
As to your trust issues, well I cannot help with that - in my eyes FD are doing everything they said they would do from what I have seen so far.

It is not your place to insult my academic performances or the courses I've took. None of my courses handled 'Talking to inane people on the internet'. Also my post wasn't built up to be directed towards you, but more towards FDev, since there is no company that would just fly off their hinges and ramble on about 1 point instead of focusing on the main issue that was being presented. If i had known that the community is allergic to words 'Open' And 'Solo' I would just have left that out, since my post mainly wasn't even about that.

Lastly, that I graduated a year ago, doesn't mean I'm not working. I work as an account manager for a branch of Shell in this country.

Point the first - if your degree was worth the paper it was printed on, you would have gone ahead and posted an edited, clarified version of your trust post, changing the language to try and invite discussion on that particular point once you saw the merge and could very clearly read what the merge was caused by.

Point the second - A lot of people were hyped about Daikatana (oh, the lulz), a lot of people are hyped about Star Citizen, a lot of people were hyped about Elder Scrolls Online, the hype matters not how the game turns out, nor the long term success, the only thing it displays is that they spent more resources on pretty press release hype. I'd prefer that Frontier spend 99.9% of their resources on making the game better rather than mollifying people that need shiny press releases and four page fold out spreads in Edge magazine to justify liking a game.


Now, an editorial. I think Rockstar games are almost universally awful. This strongly suggests different approaches for different people, so Frontier has to read their audience and perhaps, just perhaps, there are reasons as to why they communicate the way they do. Frontier's method isn't perfect for me and there are things I wish they would do, but generally I can deal with it and I know how to dig for the details that matter to me. After having spent just a little time among the wider community of Elite, I really do understand what they do and why they do it, so if that's lost on your average Reddit mook, I don't think it's all Frontier's fault.

Point the first: Since you don't know. I did change the wording of my post, reinforcing that the Open/Solo stuff is a minor gripe for me and that it totally wasn't the point. The majority of people in the thread refused to see that, that's why I eventually had to delete it.

Point the second: There is a reason why people are ready to fork over thousands of dollars for a game that hasn't released anything but are reluctant to give a measily 30 pounds for an expansion to an already existing game. I agree that FD should spend their resources on making the game better, that is something that I have made abundantly clear. But they need to show it to their customers that they are indeed doing the stuff people want. People learned to vote with their wallet, so the devs should listen.

Rockstar was just an example, there are a ton of companies that don't communicate at all but still have customers eating out of their hands (Bethesda, CD Project, EA sports if going with the FIFA crowd, even the No Man's Sky team only releases like 1 video in half a year)
My post was all about how I don't want this game to fail, but it will if it actually repels instead of attracting new customers. An average customer would rather choose a pretty game with a lot of lights and dozens upon dozens of ships (Star Citizen) than a fully scientific simulation of the universe with real reasoning and science behind it with just 20 ships. Personally, I prefer the second. But you need the first group to make your game grow, whether you like it or not.

 

[Julissa Silver]

Point the first: Since you don't know. I did change the wording of my post, reinforcing that the Open/Solo stuff is a minor gripe for me and that it totally wasn't the point. It is not my fault that the majority of people in the thread refused to see that, that's why I eventually had to delete it.

Oooh, you've learned a new way to post by aping my style. I'm flattered! *eyeroll*

However, I have to invite you to go back and re-read. Look for the words "posted" and "clarified version". It appears that you were too busy copy-pasting "Point the first" to see what it was that I said. If you're going to respond, please at least respond to the real point of my post.

 

[Gidio]

Oooh, you've learned a new way to post by aping my style. I'm flattered! *eyeroll*

However, I have to invite you to go back and re-read. Look for the words "posted" and "clarified version". It appears that you were too busy copy-pasting "Point the first" to see what it was that I said. If you're going to respond, please at least respond to the real point of my post.

And I've hoped you would understand it without me having to spell it out for you, I'm sorry to hear that I was wrong.

I'll try to simplify it: My first post was mostly about the wrong kind of communication from FDev and me hoping that they don't make a mistake by continuing to do that, with a minor gripe about Open/Solo which I tried to use as an example of miscommunication. People only read the Open/Solo part and immediately starting replying about that. After a page of replies about Open and Solo an people ignoring my replies that the thread is not about that, I decided to reword that part. People then just started to read the replies and not the original post. So the discussion went nowhere. That's when I decided to just delete the part about Open/Solo. That's when the thread was merged.
I hope this was detailed enough so that you understand. Feel free to say so if otherwise, I'll be happy to make a drawing.[/sarcasm]

So basically: Even if I rewrite my OP, nobody is going to read it, and frankly I have other stuff to do than sitting here trying to find out how to say this without people immediately assuming the wrong thing. I'm not a kindergarten teacher.

 

[Jockey79]

It is not your place to insult my academic performances or the courses I've took.

It's not yours to claim Frontier lack communication skills (when they do indeed communicate regularly) and back that up with a claim you're qualified in it yourself.
Especially when you failed completely to get your points over and had to go back and edit your post to make it look like you did make a clear point.
Which was a pointless effort as you'd been quoted so much you could not hide your error, but like a politician you tried anyway.

Also my post wasn't built up to be directed towards you, but more towards FDev,

Public forum, any member of the public can comment on the posts on it.
If you don't like people commenting on your opinions, please don't post them where the public can see them and respond to them.
Also, make sure you're clear on your points as members of the public are fast to pick up on every tiny detail and will shine a light on the flaws.

And don't try to hide remarks on the modes and then claim that is not what the post is about when you get merged.
You clearly have an opinion on the modes, you're welcome to share it - but trying to sneak it in another thread, bypassing the active thread is just a poor show
and in my opinion is disrespectful to the forum Mods who are trying to keep things organised and tidy.

 

[Robert Maynard]

My first post was mostly about the wrong kind of communication from FDev and me hoping that they don't make a mistake by continuing to do that, with a minor gripe about Open/Solo which I tried to use as an example of miscommunication.

What you tried to use as an example of miscommunication is actually a set of core design features, i.e. three game modes; single shared galaxy state (all modes, all platforms) and the ability to switch between modes on a session by session basis. That you put forward your opinion on these features as an example of miscommunication (i.e. a factual occurrence) did nothing to improve the reception of your post, in my opinion.

 

[Taimaru]

Also my post wasn't built up to be directed towards you, but more towards FDev, since there is no company that would just fly off their hinges and ramble on about 1 point instead of focusing on the main issue that was being presented.

You may also need to know, before flying of your hinges and having a go at FDev is that the forums are moderated by volunteers, not Frontier.

Frontier have not been involved in this miscommunication caused by your thread. Maybe it is time you took a step back and think about what you really want to communicate to Frontier and subsequently post in a more clearly thought out form of communication.

 

[Soliluna]

It is not your place to insult my academic performances or the courses I've took. None of my courses handled 'Talking to inane people on the internet'. Also my post wasn't built up to be directed towards you, but more towards FDev, since there is no company that would just fly off their hinges and ramble on about 1 point instead of focusing on the main issue that was being presented. If i had known that the community is allergic to words 'Open' And 'Solo' I would just have left that out, since my post mainly wasn't even about that.

Lastly, that I graduated a year ago, doesn't mean I'm not working. I work as an account manager for a branch of Shell in this country.



Point the first: Since you don't know. I did change the wording of my post, reinforcing that the Open/Solo stuff is a minor gripe for me and that it totally wasn't the point. The majority of people in the thread refused to see that, that's why I eventually had to delete it.

Point the second: There is a reason why people are ready to fork over thousands of dollars for a game that hasn't released anything but are reluctant to give a measily 30 pounds for an expansion to an already existing game. I agree that FD should spend their resources on making the game better, that is something that I have made abundantly clear. But they need to show it to their customers that they are indeed doing the stuff people want. People learned to vote with their wallet, so the devs should listen.

Rockstar was just an example, there are a ton of companies that don't communicate at all but still have customers eating out of their hands (Bethesda, CD Project, EA sports if going with the FIFA crowd, even the No Man's Sky team only releases like 1 video in half a year)
My post was all about how I don't want this game to fail, but it will if it actually repels instead of attracting new customers. An average customer would rather choose a pretty game with a lot of lights and dozens upon dozens of ships (Star Citizen) than a fully scientific simulation of the universe with real reasoning and science behind it with just 20 ships. Personally, I prefer the second. But you need the first group to make your game grow, whether you like it or not.

I've worked in customer service/relations and service provision roles throughout my life. It doesn't matter where you speak to people, you can apply the same skills - but if I can give you a piece of advice: tacit knowledge is respected far more than academic merits. Expecting people to be impressed or automatically consider you points more reasonable because you reference your education history is only going to lead to disappointment. Particularly, anyone with any sense about them knows that a piece of paper stating that you completed a set of studies does not mean that you can practically apply those studies, or, that you are good at applying those studies.

For example, there are many doctors in the world... are they all good doctors? Furthermore, are the best doctors those who have just qualified or those that have had years of experience?

Roberts has to be one of the worst at communicating. I don't see why people put faith in him to deliver to be honest, taking a look at his movies makes me blush because of how embarrassingly cliché they are. He gabs a lot, but it sounds like he needs to be pledged to his own game rather than making it:

"You’re not going to have 50 systems to adventure in, but I think most people are going to have a lot of fun," founder Chris Roberts said. "I’m actually expecting people to make up their own action story arc. So what we’re planning is, we’ll just have different areas you can fly in and visit and do things in, or have some AI that will spawn." (link: http://www.pcgamer.com/star-citizens-multi-crew-ships-blast-off-at-gamescom/)

You're not going to have 50 systems to adventure in - Awkward way of phrasing and a negative approach to communication.
...but I think most people are going to have a lot of fun. Lack of confidence in what he is stating does not reinforce a consumers enthusiasm. It also does not really expand on the previous statement.
So what we’re planning is, we’ll just have different areas you can fly in and visit and do things in... So the game has things that you can do. Very compelling. Less than 50 systems, that you can fly and visit and do things in.
I’m actually expecting people to make up their own action story arc. All of this time and money invested in so few systems and the players are going to be expected to make up their own story.
...or have some AI that will spawn. And some A.I might spawn. Good to know that you may get to do more than just fly and visit things and do things in.

Ultimately, what I got from this communication is, he has no idea what he wants or is developing. In fact, your post would be better if it replaced FDEV and Braben with Chris Roberts and Cloud Imperium Games.

A lot of people compare these two games and their developers, believing that SC is going to blow people out of the water, but I am honestly completely unimpressed by what they have shown thus far. The ships look good and I like their designs, that's about it.

NMS looks great, but they are aiming for mass market appeal, Elite is not. Rockstar's marketing tactics involve shock, possibly the greatest marketing method that you can possibly use. Activision-Blizzard used it with Call of Duty with the civilian massacre scenes and 'The Interview' used it with their 'angry North Korea do not like our movie' stunt. Celebrities use it all the time, particularly by stating that they are homosexual or by having a 'tape' released. Rockstar's entire game library is shock, so it draws attention to itself, meaning they can spend less on marketing.

FDEV can improve but, I am not really seeing anything they can learn from the developers you have mentioned.

 

[OldSalt]

Its has got to the point Gidio where your original post has sunk without a trace in a very robustly fought snark-fest. The only meaningful and interesting thing I can locate is that someone has a Rocket Monkey, a Rocket Monkey Gidio. What a world of wonder we live in... anyway, what's all this about ?

 

[bootsam]

Monkeys on rockets? Where can I gets one of those? Thats better than the surfing squirrel.

 

[Gidio]

Its has got to the point Gidio where your original post has sunk without a trace in a very robustly fought snark-fest. The only meaningful and interesting thing I can locate is that someone has a Rocket Monkey, a Rocket Monkey Gidio. What a world of wonder we live in... anyway, what's all this about ?

Honestly, I don't know how it could happen. I was daft enough to try to suggest a better way to communicate to FDev and I also mentioned that Open/Solo is an issue that needs to be resolved, albeit the second point was more of a side point.
Everyone flipped and starting throwing at my head that I want to change the game to something they don't want (all valid opinions) which wasn't the point of my post. I deleted the part about Open/Solo to try to steer the discussion towards the point I wanted to make, but the damage was done.
And yes, there were some Rocket Monkeys thrown at my head too, although I don't know where they came from.

You may also need to know, before flying of your hinges and having a go at FDev is that the forums are moderated by volunteers, not Frontier.

Frontier have not been involved in this miscommunication caused by your thread. Maybe it is time you took a step back and think about what you really want to communicate to Frontier and subsequently post in a more clearly thought out form of communication.

Please, reread my posts. I have nothing but utmost respect for Frontier. I have never said they would fly off their hinges. I tried to say the opposite, the post you quoted was meant to illustrate that my OP was meant for a level-headed company, that wouldn't just freak out and think I was insulting them or start nitpicking about one point, which basically happened in my first thread. English isn't my first language, so sorry if I misled you by my wording.

 

[Janichsan]

Honestly, I don't know how it could happen.

If you really don't know that, you really don't have to seem taken home more from your college or university courses than a piece of paper to hang on the wall. Your original post before the edit was largely incoherent and uninformed ramblings about things that had little to do with your desire for more or better communications. The whole paragraph were you argued against the equal treatment of solo mode and asked (repeatedly!) for separating it from the rest of the game didn't help to make your intended point.

And going off to insult the intelligence of other forum members, who dared to disagree with you, does in turn not really help to build yourself some credence as professional communicator. I really hope you are better at this at your job than you are here.

 

[Jockey79]

.... I also mentioned that Open/Solo is an issue that needs to be resolved, ....

I'm going to ignore the rest, as you're just blanking out why you ended up here in the first place and respond to the quoted part only.
It was "resolved" and COMMUNICATED - but more people are just not reading it or ignoring how it was resolved;

Originally Posted by Zac Antonaci

According to some members of the community, Solo players should have a limited or no effect on Powerplay - or, alternatively, playing in Open should offer Powerplay bonuses. Is this something you are considering?

No. For us Solo, Groups and Open are all valid and equal ways to play the game.

And a nice, clear, concise comment from Michael Brookes regarding the modes;

Originally Posted by Michael Brookes
From the initial inception of the game we have considered all play modes are equally valid choices. While we are aware that some players disagree, this hasn't changed for us.

Michael

Dev Update 6th August 2015 (https://community.elitedangerous.com/node/248);

What we are doing is new in many ways, both technically and in terms of how we are realizing our long term ambitions for Elite Dangerous. As we evolve the game we are trying to give the best value we can to both existing and new players, for the long term benefit of everyone. That’s why we’ve worked hard to keep backwards compatibility for the Elite Dangerous: Horizons season, and are continuing to release updates for ‘season one’ players. Everyone will continue to fly in the same galaxy, and be impacted by, participate in and help to drive the same events.

Frontier like the modes, Frontier want the modes, Frontier have said they are keeping the modes - they really could not be more clear.
For more information and the history of the modes - see the last link in my Sig. It covers over two and a half years of COMMUNICATION.

 

[Gidio]

If you really don't know that, you really don't have to seem taken home more from your college or university courses than a piece of paper to hang on the wall. Your original post before the edit was largely incoherent and uninformed ramblings about things that had little to do with your desire for more or better communications. The whole paragraph were you argued against the equal treatment of solo mode and asked (repeatedly!) for separating it from the rest of the game didn't help to make your intended point.

Ehh, I don't know which post you saw, but I edited out like 2 words and added 4 other. After that I just deleted the whole paragraph about Open/Solo. That's all I did, it's not my fault that the only thing people saw was Open/Solo, just because they wanted to argue about that, instead of the more prominent problem of incorrect communication.
I admit it was my own fault for putting Open/Solo in there, but the rest of my post has remained basically the same before and after the edit.

I hope the people that are ready to lynch me for just saying something 'negative' about something FDEV is doing also realise that FDEV is just a company. They exist to make money, we benefit from that money because Elite: Dangerous grows in scope and the only way to achieve that is to attract more customers who are ready to spend money.
I thought that the more mature age of the fanbase for this game would mean you don't get dragged to hell and back just for voicing your opinion, I guess I was wrong.

 

[Janichsan]

I hope the people that are ready to lynch me for just saying something 'negative' about something FDEV is doing also realise that FDEV is just a company.

You still don't seem to get that the criticism you draw does not come from the fact that you alone dare stand to say something negative about FD. It's that your argumentation is flawed, and the way you think you have to treat those that do not agree with you.

I thought that the more mature age of the fanbase for this game would mean you don't get dragged to hell and back just for voicing your opinion, I guess I was wrong.

And here you go again, depicting yourself as the only sane voice of reason, preaching against the unwashed mob of fanbois that simply does not want to see the truth.

 

[Soliluna]

Ehh, I don't know which post you saw, but I edited out like 2 words and added 4 other. After that I just deleted the whole paragraph about Open/Solo. That's all I did, it's not my fault that the only thing people saw was Open/Solo, just because they wanted to argue about that, instead of the more prominent problem of incorrect communication.
I admit it was my own fault for putting Open/Solo in there, but the rest of my post has remained basically the same before and after the edit.

I hope the people that are ready to lynch me for just saying something 'negative' about something FDEV is doing also realise that FDEV is just a company. They exist to make money, we benefit from that money because Elite: Dangerous grows in scope and the only way to achieve that is to attract more customers who are ready to spend money.
I thought that the more mature age of the fanbase for this game would mean you don't get dragged to hell and back just for voicing your opinion, I guess I was wrong.

If your opinion was that women should not be allowed to vote should we not disagree? Sorry but your not going to win anybodies favour if they genuinely disagree with your opinion or consider your reasoning flawed.

 

[Jockey79]

And here you go again, depicting yourself as the only sane voice of reason, preaching against the unwashed mob of fanbois that simply does not want to see the truth.

truth, funny you picked that word - as it seems to have escaped him.
His own comments that he removed are still in the thread in others quotes - people just have to jump back to page 116 and read on to see what he said and what he removed and now denies.

The problem with ED is that you, FD and David Braben apparently don't know what you want the game to be.
From the beginning you said that you want the game to be an online, breathing universe. Initially there were no plans for an offline mode and it was eventually scrapped. Then why is it much better to play the game Solo at the moment? You receive all the rewards of Open play, except there is no danger, since almost everyone can defeat the biggest NPC ships with a meager Cobra.
The only way to fix this is: Stop making Solo influence the universe of Open.
Yes, I know you are afraid of alienating your older Elite fans, since they are used to playing a single player game and not multiplayer and they would feel left out. But what you are doing now is alienating a lot of new fans and people who have been playing modern MMOs which do have a true living, breathing universe.
If you wanted to cater to the older generation of gamers, then you should have left offline mode in.

..... I don't want for core gameplay mechanics to change. I just want a separation between Open and Solo and just for clear communication between what the developers want and what the players expect.
.....

 

[Vorxian]

Damn it, opened 'The Solo vs Open vs groups Thread, popcorn in hand, thinking I'd entertain the final hour of my shift at work reading rants about Solo vs Open vs groups. BUT I needed to buy MORE popcorn, as i found a pagetrilogy of Solo vs Open vs groups vs Gidio!

Now I'm full and feeling sick, ate too much popcorn

Think this is the first time everyone in Solo vs Open vs groups are on the same side! EPIC.

LOVE Solo vs Open vs groups Thread. Always a good time to be had by all.

 

[Hempstead]

And so is it's damage output, as one person starts to take too much damage they can boost away and the NPC will just swap targets to the next closest human. So you have less risk. Also you can kill NPCs exponentially faster in Wings, so by the time a Solo person kills one, a Wing can be on their 3rd or 4th - so they are still earning money faster than the Solo player - with less risk and someone to talk to while playing.

As you've pointed out, trading in a Wing makes more profits than a person in Solo.

Wings add a massive bonus to Group and Open play modes that you simply cannot get in Solo. Yet it is the Open players who want more.

From I observed, once I reached combat rating of Dangerous, the NPCs in Solo CZs chase me. The record I currently have is 8 NPCs attacked me all at once (the only choice? Run for me life!). And the record for distance chased currently is 35km, i.e. they don't give up at all. That is, I took fire on the rear end for 35km. I ended up shaking the slower Pythons, Condas, and dealt with 1x Clipper and 2x Vulture all at once as soon as I lost the heavy hitters on my radar. Note that I actually did not lose the Python and Conda, they continued to chase, I just had the distance separation to deal with the light hitters first before the Elite Python and Elite Conda arrived. That is, divide and conquer. I didn't want to jump out of the instance, as it's quite rare to get one Elite python plus one Elite Conda at once.

Note that, they don't always chase forever. Currently at my combat rating of Deadly, they don't give up the chase about 50% of the time, if they chase at all, and it's always at least 5x NPCs that give the chase. The chase does severely reduce my SBC store so I have to cut the CZ trips short and return to base to repair/rearm much more frequent than before.