Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[The Wallet Inspector]

Well, it's subjectively easier if you wish, but you cannot say it is objectively easier. If the only difference is CMDRs, and that is the only difference, there's no inevitability that you will meet one, nor that that CMDR will be lethal. We all meet the same NPCs, some are easy, some less so.

It is slightly insulting to insinuate that some players are playing Elite:Easy. There are lots of reasons why players choose the mode that they do, and it's unlikely, this being just a game, that any of it has to do with courage. You can still die to NPCs if you don't play it right, you can be vastly outnumbered playing in Solo.

It's different, if you think you are playing the hard way, good for you, but really, you're just playing the way you want to, as is everyone else.

"but you cannot say it is objectively easier."- then it cannot really be "debunked" as some people suggest

"It is slightly insulting to insinuate that some players are playing Elite:Easy."

As I said, we all have the same game, so if we are talking about our own experiences, I think it is fine to use the word. I would not use it in the pejorative though. I never said anything that insulting.

"It's different, if you think you are playing the hard way, good for you, but really, you're just playing the way you want to, as is everyone else."

I agree! I have been saying this the whole time, but was kept being told that FD lied and are forcing people to play a certain way. In my experience it is not true, and as far as I am concerned, they delivered on 99 percent of their promises. I was never bothered about offline mode anyway. That is a separate issue, it is just PvE mode is being talked about as if it was something they promised explicitly, but did not provide. I have yet to see a quote saying "There will be a PvE mode" from the devs, just accusations that they have promised it through the phrase "play your own way".

 

[ianw]

Lets start with risk. Do you agree that open is more risky?

Hang on - I think know this one - is it no?

Yes, it is, by definition. The fact that you can be interdicted / hunted by other commanders... that's a risk that you are willing to take when playing in open. Solo is safer. Really, there's not even an argument to be had here.

I think you need to expand on risk in the following scenarios;

Open - I'm on my own - no other players - risk assessment?

Open - I'm trading - all the other players in SC are traders and/or have no FSD interdictor - risk assessment?

Open - I'm a pirate with my wing buddies - all three of them - we all have A rated combat ships rigged for PVP - risk assessment?

Open - I'm doing the Hutton run in open - Code are blockading the system! - in another instance as luck would have it - mine is clear - risk assessment?

Solo - I'm a trader no weapons fitted - haven't done combat since the trading scenarios - I get interdicted by medium level AI pirate who isn't taking no for an answer - risk assessment?

I'm sure you can think of more.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Hang on - I think know this one - is it no?



I think you need to expand on risk in the following scenarios;

Open - I'm on my own - no other players - risk assessment?

Open - I'm trading - all the other players in SC are traders and/or have no FSD interdictor - risk assessment?

Open - I'm a pirate with my wing buddies - all three of them - we all have A rated combat ships rigged for PVP - risk assessment?

Open - I'm doing the Hutton run in open - Code are blockading the system! - in another instance mine is clear risk assessment?

Solo - I'm a trader no weapons fitted - haven't done combat since the trading scenarios - I get interdicted by medium level AI pirate who isn't taking no for an answer - risk assessment?

I'm sure you can think of more.

Well everyone of those Open situations could easily contain a player who chases you and kills you. If they are not a problem for you, why want a PvE mode? I think the examples provided are unscientific at best, so no conclusion could be reached in this hypothetical risk assessment. I have yet to encounter an AI i cannot outrun/outwit..

 

[Faded Glory]

[snip]
then it cannot really be "debunked" as some people suggest

As I said, we all have the same game, so if we are talking about our own experiences, I think it is fine to use the word. I would not use it in the pejorative though. I never said anything that insulting.

Well, it can be debunked subjectively, and a fair few players who do play in Open are quite adamant that it's not really harder than Solo.

Of course, if you find Open difficult, well, maybe you're not good enough. I AM JOKING!!!!

I agree! I have been saying this the whole time, but was kept being told that FD lied and are forcing people to play a certain way. In my experience it is not true, and as far as I am concerned, they delivered on 99 percent of their promises. I was never bothered about offline mode anyway. That is a separate issue, it is just PvE mode is being talked about as if it was something they promised explicitly, but did not provide. I have yet to see a quote saying "There will be a PvE mode" from the devs, just accusations that they have promised it through the phrase "play your own way".

The PvE mode being asked for is not that unreasonable. People say that it will fragment the community, but the truth is, if that were the case, then those players don't want to be in Open now, so FD are just giving them an officially supported PvE environment. Other people don't want it because it would reduce the number of vulnerable 'noobs' who click on Open because they don't realize it could result in an unprovoked attack.

Whatever, I doubt FD will provide it at the moment, but personally I support it as a supported option. Oh, and at one point you asked why there wasn't a thread about an Open PvE mode. There was, unfortunately a small, vocal bunch of Open only advocates hijacked it, turning it into another Open vs Solo thread, and it was (mistakenly IMO) closed down.

 

[Mouse]

$70 to some of us.. and if it is just a game.. go play.. why did you come here and want to change things if it is "just a game"

I am happy with the way it is. You are the one advocating for change by adding a mode Not me.

Yes I am because of the actions of others. I could have sworn you were wanting more rewards or something for open, if I mistook someone else's post for your then I apologize

"Again you completely ignore that while different, the games are similar and the ACTIONS of some people in the games which were used as an example are identical or very similar to the ACTIONS used by some people in ED.."

I did not ignore this. I just think it is not a meaningful way to determine how things will go in ED, given the devs are carefully choosing what features they do and do not wnat. Since I agree with their vision, they are doing it right.

So there is no correlation between certain behaviors causing people to leave Eve and those SAME behaviors causing people to leave Open. I guess that repeating patterns are no longer an indicator of an issue.

"Still don't get it .. the griefers are cancerous to the GAME not to the players.. to the players they are an annoyance and a burden and cause them to move elsewhere.. to the game.. they weaken and could possibly kill it.. sounds rather cancerous to me.."

Again, we will see if this kind of unfavourable talk is allowed

May as well report me too.. but I think you will find that saying that certain actions are cancerous is a whole lot different then insulting someone by calling them a cancer.

"nope.. it added a trigger warning to a proposal and to the current mode which fit your definition. "

My "definition" that I provided did not mention proposals or game modes. Sorry, wrong again

Your "definition" did not mention adding to existing.. it just was adding to.. so not wrong.. keep trying

"You claim others are trying to derail the discussion but purposely focus on other aspects to make your claims while ignoring what is actually relevent to the discussion."

I am just giving my opinions, if you think they are "irrelevant" then you are free to do so.

I'm not the one claiming other's observations are irrelevant.. you are.

"If to play with other people I have to search or deal with PVP.. that isn't' forced? There is more to the meaning of forced than "physically"

No, you are not "forced" at all. Physically or otherwise. FD cannot make you do anything against your will. You can choose not to play in Open.

Actually I am.. If "my way is playing with others in a PVE environment" I cannot do that without jumping through hoops.. I am either forced to choose to either go into solo or forced into PVP in open.. people have LEFT THE GAME because they wanted to play with others and went into open.. were ganked .. and not wanting to play solo they left because FD did not provide the environment they wanted to play in. They couldn't' "Play their way" and some claim that FDEV deceived them. Mobius.. a player.. had to make and police a group, which is over 11,000 members now, to give players the environment they wanted in Ed. That is why we are asking for a Open-PVE mode.. then people are not forced into playing in ways they don't want to.

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Well I have argued all day it is easier, based on my experience. However, I have been told asking for more regard for online is denying other players content and forcing them to play a certain way to get it. I have also been told it is not easier (apparently it has been "debunked"), but I have to disagree. Apparently it is also insulting to say that people have an "easy" game. Again, I don;t agree, because we all have the same game, so we can speak of it on equal terms i believe. But this is all just my opinion.

More regard for a certain mode.. sounds like changing something to me.. yet you profusely said you are happy with the way the game was..

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"Well said, but you forgot the 4th debate on a Duplicate Open mode that is PVE only so people don't have to search for special groups to PVE without having to worry about PVP."

I decided not to include a debate so convoluted I could not understand the point of it.

-Pv-

How is it convoluted? People are wanting a Open PVE mode . Same as regular open but no Pvp

 

[Seonid]

I have yet to encounter an AI i cannot outrun/outwit..

I've met players that are inferior to AI, your example is also unscientific at best.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Well, it can be debunked subjectively, and a fair few players who do play in Open are quite adamant that it's not really harder than Solo.

Of course, if you find Open difficult, well, maybe you're not good enough. I AM JOKING!!!!




The PvE mode being asked for is not that unreasonable. People say that it will fragment the community, but the truth is, if that were the case, then those players don't want to be in Open now, so FD are just giving them an officially supported PvE environment. Other people don't want it because it would reduce the number of vulnerable 'noobs' who click on Open because they don't realize it could result in an unprovoked attack.

Whatever, I doubt FD will provide it at the moment, but personally I support it as a supported option. Oh, and at one point you asked why there wasn't a thread about an Open PvE mode. There was, unfortunately a small, vocal bunch of Open only advocates hijacked it, turning it into another Open vs Solo thread, and it was (mistakenly IMO) closed down.

"Well, it can be debunked subjectively" That is not really debunking. It is true for some not true for others, that would be more accurate. Obvious it is not true for me, but that is me..

"Of course, if you find Open difficult, well, maybe you're not good enough." Hehe, maybe I am not, but to be honest I am happy to accept I am not the best pilot. To be fair, I can ramp up the danger by going further into the old worlds, and cool it off by going further out. Part of my playstyle.

"Other people don't want it because it would reduce the number of vulnerable 'noobs' who click on Open because they don't realize it could result in an unprovoked attack. "

Exactly why Roybe and I agree there should be a trigger warning in front of Open play, lots of people claim they were not aware. That would certainly solve that problem, at the expense of a few lines of text.

" moment, but personally I support it as a supported option. Oh, and at one point you asked why there wasn't a thread about an Open PvE mode. There was, unfortunately a small, vocal bunch of Open only advocates hijacked it, turning it into another Open vs Solo thread, and it was (mistakenly IMO) closed down."

Well I like to think I am still on topic,. Either way, it seems people are blaming a lot of problems on "Open Only Advocates", seems a little unfair when I am advocating for Open play, like the label comes with certain pre-suppositions that are not factually correct. I don't even think Open is superior in any way, just different, and more of a challenge to me. Obviously it is an emotive issue, one poster went so far as suggesting they remove Open all-together, and the reasons given were down to what was mostly forum politics. We need to remember the other 800000 players who remain mostly silent, the statistics of whom we do not have access to. Lots of conjecture seems to be thrown about, with little fact. That is why I always make it clear these are my opinions.

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I've met players that are inferior to AI, your example is also unscientific at best.

I never claimed all players were better than AI, I did not present my example as a legitimate scientific proposition. It was just an observation I have made, not one AI has yet destroyed, caught or beat me. I have outwitted every one. This is what informs my personal view that Open is more dangerous, but this is not an attempt to disparage anyone else or their opinions

 

[Faded Glory]

Of course, if you find Open difficult, well, maybe you're not good enough. I AM JOKING!!!!

I will expand on this point though...

FD allow PvP for those players who want it, for those players who do not find the NPCs a challenge, and who believe that a human will always be more exciting and challenging than NPCs. And that's great.

There are other ways a player can challenge themselves in ED too. Choice of ship, choice of load out (look at all the SCB related threads), to an extent, choice of location. All of these can make fighting anything, yes, even NPCs a challenge for many, if not most players. Head into a SSS in an Eagle, and see if it isn't a challenge, at least more of a challenge than if you are in a Vulture, Python or Anaconda.

When players come onto the forums berating Solo as easy mode, it does come across as a bit arrogant, especially as few of those players have any way to prove the prowess that they claim to possess.

So, if Solo is too easy for you, you are lucky that you can head off into Open and find one of those lethal CMDRs to duke it out with, but that, I'm afraid, does not mean you should earn more or get more. You're doing it because you want to.

 

[Jockey79]

I've met players that are inferior to AI, your example is also unscientific at best.

When I was a Constable, I met real life humans who are inferior to the in game AI.
I seriously would not trust them to look after a brick for 30 minutes. I still don't know how they managed to breathe and blink at the same time.

However, they are entitled to play Elite: Dangerous and enjoy it.

So all this "I find it too easy, so change it" nonsense is narcissistic and highlights the main flaw with society now.
People only care about themselves and getting some leg up on others - be it backstabbing in the workplace or noob killing in a game.
It's a short power trip just for spite sake.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Actually I am.. If "my way is playing with others in a PVE environment" I cannot do that without jumping through hoops.. I am either forced to choose to either go into solo or forced into PVP in open.. people have LEFT THE GAME because they wanted to play with others and went into open.. were ganked .. and not wanting to play solo they left because FD did not provide the environment they wanted to play in. They couldn't' "Play their way" and some claim that FDEV deceived them. Mobius.. a player.. had to make and police a group, which is over 11,000 members now, to give players the environment they wanted in Ed. That is why we are asking for a Open-PVE mode.. then people are not forced into playing in ways they don't want to.

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More regard for a certain mode.. sounds like changing something to me.. yet you profusely said you are happy with the way the game was..

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How is it convoluted? People are wanting a Open PVE mode . Same as regular open but no Pvp

Well you said people left the game. Proving they were never forced to do any of this. I think you are expecting the phrase "play your way" to mean more than the scope of what was actually promised. So no, no one has forced you.

"Yes I am because of the actions of others. I could have sworn you were wanting more rewards or something for open, if I mistook someone else's post for your then I apologize "

Not more rewards for open. I said I would like to see more Open events, like CQC competitions and thoseNVIDIA ones. I was fine with them.

"So there is no correlation between certain behaviors causing people to leave Eve and those SAME behaviors causing people to leave Open. I guess that repeating patterns are no longer an indicator of an issue.
"

I have no idea, it seems like a very complex issue. There are so many factors in play I could not say the correlation was definitive.

"Your "definition" did not mention adding to existing.. it just was adding to.. so not wrong.. keep trying"

Look, I think you are making a bit much of this point I will clarify one more time, I would like to see a "Trigger Warning" next to the Open Play Tab, and by that I mean "a statement at the start of a piece of writing, video, etc. alerting the reader or viewer to the fact that it contains potentially distressing material.". That should put it to rest - Cannot be any more clear. I am in favor of that. I am not in favor of Open PvE, but you claimed I "Voted against trigger warnings", that made no sense to me.

"I'm not the one claiming other's observations are irrelevant.. you are. "

At no point have I done that. Please can you find a quote of mine where I claim someones observations are "irrelevant". I have questioned definitions of words, but that is all. Sorry if you felt I was doing this, I do not mean to cause any offence with my opinions

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When I was a Constable, I met real life humans who are inferior to the in game AI.
I seriously would not trust them to look after a brick for 30 minutes. I still don't know how they managed to breathe and blink at the same time.

However, they are entitled to play Elite: Dangerous and enjoy it.

So all this "I find it too easy, so change it" nonsense is narcissistic and highlights the main flaw with society now.
People only care about themselves and getting some leg up on others - be it backstabbing in the workplace or noob killing in a game.
It's a short power trip just for spite sake.

Now that is some offensive stuff - but I don;t think this is coming from "The Open Advocates Camp", just an observation.

 

[ianw]

Well everyone of those Open situations could easily contain a player who chases you and kills you. If they are not a problem for you, why want a PvE mode? I think the examples provided are unscientific at best, so no conclusion could be reached in this hypothetical risk assessment. I have yet to encounter an AI i cannot outrun/outwit..

They could - but they didn't - and that's the point. Risk is completely relative to the persons ability not to mention ship type and loadout and situation - it has nothing to do with mode.

You claim to be able to outwit any AI and you expected allowances to be made upthread for a condition that affects they way you post yet you show no such understanding for people who may not share your abilities with AI combat - some of whom have physical conditions that affect how they can use controllers.

How does that work?

 

[Seonid]

When I was a Constable, I met real life humans who are inferior to the in game AI.
I seriously would not trust them to look after a brick for 30 minutes. I still don't know how they managed to breathe and blink at the same time.

I spent 9 years fixing technologically advanced equipment that had been used by squaddies, you could give these guys 2 cast iron cannonballs and in less than 8 hours, they would have broken one and lost the other. The AI needs to have a variable skill level as well as you have to pitch it at the median human player ability level which is a lot lower than the thousands of professional game developers that post here, would think. Most of the mode switching stuff is derived from what's "easy" or "hard" and that's totally subjective.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

They could - but they didn't - and that's the point. Risk is completely relative to the persons ability not to mention ship type and loadout and situation - it has nothing to do with mode.

You claim to be able to outwit any AI and you expected allowances to be made upthread for a condition that affects they way you post yet you show no such understanding for people who may not share your abilities with AI combat - some of whom have physical conditions that affect how they can use controllers.

How does that work?

"They could - but they didn't - and that's the point" Well you hypothetical Commander obviously was not in LAve on a Friday evening

"You claim to be able to outwit any AI" - Yup.

"show no such understanding for people who may not share your abilities with AI combat"

I do understand. I have not accused anyone of being bad at the game, or even insinuated it. I merely have a positive outlook on my own piloting career and my activities in Open.

"some of whom have physical conditions that affect how they can use controllers."

Can you please show me where I made an accusation against a commander based on their inability to use a controller? I said nothing negative about ANY commanders, I said I could outwit any AI, that was it. Nice try though.. Do you think me saying I can do that is offensive? I cannot see how..

 

[-Pv-]

"How is it convoluted? People are wanting a Open PVE mode . Same as regular open but no Pvp"

Because the term sounds simple, but the ramifications and practical application given the current game environment are not.

I solved the problem of finding a group to play in by convincing my friends this is a honking good game. POOF. Instant Group. What's more fun than playing with your friends?

This aspect of the original game where players can be picked on in supercruise is the real pain of the game which was not a factor in the original Solo Only design. In Open mode, this game feature
is an invitation for abuse.

"[Elite: Dangerous] takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck."

Yes, I agree for the most part. The competitor spawns new players into protected region(s) of space they are free to leave whenever they want. In the protected zone, the police aren't restricted to such a close proximity to the station as Elite and the response is nearly guaranteed lethal. The newbie player survival rate from an attak is very high. In that environment, I had no trouble. I was able to build my personal resources to the point when I felt ready, I wandered out into the deeper water, all in the same play environment. The general environment in those areas was so friendly, players were hunting out newbies and giving them credits and tech.

Even though the other E game likely has more online players in it, I never felt threatened beyond what I was willing to risk.
It wasn't the environment of that MMOG that chased me out, but the cost and the "submarines in space" design. I also like that Elite human technology looks "human" and not alien as in that other game.
This makes the introduction of aliens a more open field for game design since non-human tech will be easier to create and easier to recognize. Clever and practical design. I like aligning my interest, time and
money with game designers who think like this.
-Pv-

 

[Jockey79]

What's more fun than playing with your friends?
-Pv-

Meeting new people, working together with strangers for a common goal or having a laugh with new people.
Learning new tactics or getting advice from random strangers passing by.

All sorts really.

When you don't spend every second lined up to HW out, just in case.

 

[relayer]

Um maybe you should go back and read your own posts and look at the words you use.

Originally Posted by Arcadius

Excellent point, consent is not required, so they must accept this when the click on Open Play.


Good form! Good form! 10 points to Mouse (who doesn't need any more bacon)

 

[ianw]

"They could - but they didn't - and that's the point" Well you hypothetical Commander obviously was not in LAve on a Friday evening

"You claim to be able to outwit any AI" - Yup.

"show no such understanding for people who may not share your abilities with AI combat"

I do understand. I have not accused anyone of being bad at the game, or even insinuated it. I merely have a positive outlook on my own piloting career and my activities in Open.

"some of whom have physical conditions that affect how they can use controllers."

Can you please show me where I made an accusation against a commander based on their inability to use a controller? I said nothing negative about ANY commanders, I said I could outwit any AI, that was it. Nice try though.. Do you think me saying I can do that is offensive? I cannot see how..

I'll happily show you where you made an accusation against a commander based on their ability to use a controller - if you can show me where I said you made such an accusation. I also didn't say that you said anything negative about any commanders.

I don't think what you said is offensive - I asked you a question.

This is fun isn't it?

 

[Jockey79]

I spent 9 years fixing technologically advanced equipment that had been used by squaddies,

Right there - I knew what was coming

you could give these guys 2 cast iron cannonballs and in less than 8 hours, they would have broken one and lost the other.

I went Police, my brother went Army. Not only does he fit that summary, I think it is based on him

 

[relayer]

The fact that Mobius even exists should tell FD that there is a huge problem with the current modes.
PVEers being forced to PVP. PVPers being bored because there is nothing meaningful for them.

Uh, I read that a bit differently. First, it says that at least 11,000+ players want social contact without pvp forced on them.
Second, I don't understand "PVEers being forced to PVP." No one in Mobius is forced to do anything; it's a gentlemen's agreement to behave in a neighborly way, saving pvp contests between players for special occasions and by agreement on both sides.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/images.blackout/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Arcadius [url]https://forums.frontier.co.uk/images.blackout/buttons/viewpost-right.png[/URL]

Excellent point, consent is not required, so they must accept this when the click on Open Play.


Good form! Good form! 10 points to Mouse (who doesn't need any more bacon)

nothing wrong with what I said. I never used the word "binding contract" But have the points anyway

Interdicts Commander - Can I have consent - No -Does it anyway -Flies off into the sunset whistling, no consent required I can easily deal with the police who chase me, they are easy to outwit and kill. The game mode almost seems to support my choices!