Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Robert Maynard]

Then why not aren't more folks interested in discussing the issues with Open and how they could possibly be improved instead of just instantly jumping to the DON'T TOUCH MY MODES! or WORKING AS INTENDED!? I find it almost as disappointing as the pointless killing.

I expect that a lot of participants in these threads are interested in improving Open. Resistance arises when a proposed "improvement" to Open requires any of the core game features (three game modes, single shared galaxy state, mode mobility) to be modified / replicated / deleted.

Improving Open does not *have* to be at the expense of other modes or mode mobility.

 

[Sylveria]

Then why not aren't more folks interested in discussing the issues with Open and how they could possibly be improved instead of just instantly jumping to the DON'T TOUCH MY MODES! or WORKING AS INTENDED!? I find it almost as disappointing as the pointless killing.

I think many of us are.

But just as opponents of mode switching meet with frustration so do those of us who would like better crime consequences.

On the positive side Sandro also did say the other day they aren't finished with balancing and they do want to make high sec safer and anarchies more dangerous.

So we have hope!

Because the only solutions Open advocates bring are;

1) Nerf Solo / Group to "encourage" Open
2) Lock all modes (aka remove the ability to swap ever)
3) New server with new BGS for Open Only players
4) Remove Solo / Group and force Open Only

None of those solve the problem and have been talked to death for 3 years.

I said before, the problems in Open are nothing to do with the modes.
It is to do with other game systems, like Crime and Punishment (or lack of in the case of the latter).
But gankers / griefers deflect that issue to modes as they don't want it fixing. It would ruin their fun if they had consequences to face for those actions.

^ All of this. I've also made suggestions regarding improvement of the crime/bounty system, etc. There's a lot of people who want to see the game succeed- because we've all invested in it.

I also have to completely agree with the deflection tactics as I've seen it many times with pointless off-topic attempts to derail, etc. It's fine that people have an "opinion" that the mode they play is best for them- but it doesn't mean it's best for everyone, and especially with some serious issues with interaction as the game stands.

One comment in particular- regarding those who kill others for their own amusement really sticks out as a case in point. With the advent of some games that perpetuate this attitude, that's also caused and perpetuated a serious divide.

If you want to urinate in the sandbox, that's fine- but don't expect everyone to want to hang around you because that's *your* thing... others may prefer a cleaner environment.

I'm a proponent of player choice- and also of balance (for everyone) so I don't have a "side". My personal opinion and stance disagrees with the senseless killing stance by proxy, because only one type of player gains to benefit from that action.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…

Improving Open does not *have* to be at the expense of other modes or mode mobility.

And to make things more complicated everybody has a different opinion about what would improve Open mode.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

As far as I can see all problems of Open are in some way related to human players. I'm not just talking about ganking or whatever, it seems most of the time the problem wiht other human players is that they cost you time no matter what they do. Time you otherwise could spend making some credits, which as it seems is a problem for some.

How do you solve that problem? How do you improve other Human Players? The content is not the problem, the content is the same in all in Modes.

 

[Jockey79]

How do you improve other Human Players?

That is the million pound question.
If you answer this, you'll bring about world peace and right all the wrongs in life.

 

[Sylveria]

That is the million pound question.
If you answer this, you'll bring about world peace and right all the wrongs in life.

As I've said many times in life "world peace" is an illusion. As long as you have two people who disagree, there will be conflict.

The key is in facilitation of communication- so that people may work to resolve difference.

The problem lies in the fact that some will choose not to engage in resolution- and the key when that happens is for those who do wish to resolve to prevent the perpetuation of that attitude.

Usually, there's an agreement in place which there's consequences for those who choose "not to get along with others" and how to deal with that situation (sanctions, etc.)

And yet again, we come back to missing a viable consequence system.

 

[Roybe]

I'm sold.

I actually think our tax office would fit quite nicely into the messed up world of ED too. :/

It's amazing that criminals in the US are more afraid of the IRS than the police.

 

[Sylveria]

It's amazing that criminals in the US are more afraid of the IRS than the police.

That's because usually in those instances it hits them right where it's important... their pocketbooks.

 

[Roybe]

As I've said many times in life "world peace" is an illusion. As long as you have two people who disagree, there will be conflict.

The key is in facilitation of communication- so that people may work to resolve difference.

The problem lies in the fact that some will choose not to engage in resolution- and the key when that happens is for those who do wish to resolve to prevent the perpetuation of that attitude.

Usually, there's an agreement in place which there's consequences for those who choose "not to get along with others" and how to deal with that situation (sanctions, etc.)

And yet again, we come back to missing a viable consequence system.

Add the devs desire that crime is allowed...and there is the basis of the problem. No matter the change to the Justice System, the goal of the Justice System in this game is not the prevention of crime. If the Justice System is to painful...then crime stops occurring...and this is NOT what the devs want.

It certainly can be tweaked...but the tweaks will be very small and very slow in coming.

It can take quite some time to get those 10 civilians in a High Sec area for that mission....the police do respond...if they responded much quicker...then that mission will not be taken...it becomes to painful.

So, in a galaxy that has missions to kill traders, civilians, pirates, etc. you are basically requesting the game to punish the players WHILE they are grinding out USS's...and keep them punished afterwards.

Now, when you add the idea of balancing for PK/PVP...this can get out of hand quickly...at that point the devs just need to admit that PVP was a bad idea...and remove it from the game.

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That's because usually in those instances it hits them right where it's important... their pocketbooks.

Actually, the reason they fear the feds more than the police is that federal crimes have higher incarceration periods. No one ever wants to go to jail for a federal offense. It is also a much easier crime to show for the IRS....

 

[Sylveria]

Add the devs desire that crime is allowed...and there is the basis of the problem. No matter the change to the Justice System, the goal of the Justice System in this game is not the prevention of crime. If the Justice System is to painful...then crime stops occurring...and this is NOT what the devs want.

It certainly can be tweaked...but the tweaks will be very small and very slow in coming.

It can take quite some time to get those 10 civilians in a High Sec area for that mission....the police do respond...if they responded much quicker...then that mission will not be taken...it becomes to painful.

So, in a galaxy that has missions to kill traders, civilians, pirates, etc. you are basically requesting the game to punish the players WHILE they are grinding out USS's...and keep them punished afterwards.

Now, when you add the idea of balancing for PK/PVP...this can get out of hand quickly...at that point the devs just need to admit that PVP was a bad idea...and remove it from the game.

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Actually, the reason they fear the feds more than the police is that federal crimes have higher incarceration periods. No one ever wants to go to jail for a federal offense. It is also a much easier crime to show for the IRS....

Crime being "allowed" isn't an issue- or even the basis of the problem, IMO- everyone has choices. It's the what happens when a crime is committed and someone has made that choice, which is the issue. I'm all for crime being allowed, just as I am for those who choose not to engage in criminal activity.

Summarized, the "action" isn't the problem- it's the inaction.

Again- we come back to the consequences that are missing for those who engage in illegal activities.

 

[Roybe]

Crime being "allowed" isn't an issue- or even the basis of the problem, IMO- everyone has choices. It's the what happens when a crime is committed and someone has made that choice, which is the issue. I'm all for crime being allowed, just as I am for those who choose not to engage in criminal activity.

Summarized, the "action" isn't the problem- it's the inaction.

Again- we come back to the consequences that are missing for those who engage in illegal activities.

...and the fact that consequences cannot be strong enough to prevent crime.

 

[OldSalt]

Then why not aren't more folks interested in discussing the issues with Open and how they could possibly be improved instead of just instantly jumping to the DON'T TOUCH MY MODES! or WORKING AS INTENDED!? I find it almost as disappointing as the pointless killing.

I know that you don't like hearing those replies but the truth is there are a lot of players who bought that game design quite intentionally and others who like and support it. personally I think a good look at the crime and punishment system in all modes would go the longest way to improving things, think the response you got in the original game if you shot a station.... if you weren't there it was an infinite supply of Police Vipers out for your guts. Although I am not saying do that I do think the consequences for illegal behaviour should be onerous on the offender, their life should be made hard and not easily solved by paying of an often insignificant bounty compared to the players net wealth.

 

[Roland2]

Spoiler

Add the devs desire that crime is allowed...and there is the basis of the problem. No matter the change to the Justice System, the goal of the Justice System in this game is not the prevention of crime. If the Justice System is to painful...then crime stops occurring...and this is NOT what the devs want.

It certainly can be tweaked...but the tweaks will be very small and very slow in coming.

It can take quite some time to get those 10 civilians in a High Sec area for that mission....the police do respond...if they responded much quicker...then that mission will not be taken...it becomes to painful.

So, in a galaxy that has missions to kill traders, civilians, pirates, etc. you are basically requesting the game to punish the players WHILE they are grinding out USS's...and keep them punished afterwards.

Now, when you add the idea of balancing for PK/PVP...this can get out of hand quickly...at that point the devs just need to admit that PVP was a bad idea...and remove it from the game.

Spoiler

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Actually, the reason they fear the feds more than the police is that federal crimes have higher incarceration periods. No one ever wants to go to jail for a federal offense. It is also a much easier crime to show for the IRS....

Missions that have you kill civilians (non "wanted" characters) should require travel to an anarchy system. That shouldn't be too hard to implement, and makes more sense to me.

 

[Daffan]

And again we see how you think, undermining in Solo IS doing PowerPlay normally. PP is a PVE mechanic.. how many times do we have to tell you this? There is NO PVP in PowerPlay what so ever.. no mission to kill this player or that.. no merits for killing a CMDR of another power, everything is PVE.

Doesn't make it good gameplay

Secondly, just because there is no kill missions doesn't mean there cant be emergent gameplay through player COOPERATION or WARFARE.

It's like people like subscribing to the scripted grind.

Because the only solutions Open advocates bring are;

1) Nerf Solo / Group to "encourage" Open
2) Lock all modes (aka remove the ability to swap ever)
3) New server with new BGS for Open Only players
4) Remove Solo / Group and force Open Only

None of those solve the problem and have been talked to death for 3 years.

I said before, the problems in Open are nothing to do with the modes.
It is to do with other game systems, like Crime and Punishment (or lack of in the case of the latter).
But gankers / griefers deflect that issue to modes as they don't want it fixing. It would ruin their fun if they had consequences to face for those actions.

Explain to me how a revised crime system and option 3 does not solve the problem. The revised crime system benefits everyone and the separate galaxy means everyone who hates the idea of open only can still play on their own solo/private/open land. In fact, nothing would change for them as it stands right now. At all.

In every single post I've made that was pro-open always came with the disclaimer of revamping the crime system, with suggestions and examples from other games. I know the crime-system is very bad and in favor of murderers right now - I also know that Open is the most emergent, immersive and unscripted game mode there is because Players themselves have unlimited potential for gameplay. I won't even bother getting into the part where solo undermines effort and sense of worth because you're going to have fun explaining the other part.
Thankyou.

 

[ianw]

...and the fact that consequences cannot be strong enough to prevent crime.

Depends on the consequences no?

If they wanted to squash ship destruction "because I can" zeroing someone's account would be functionally quite effective.

Obviously they won't, but they could.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

...and the fact that consequences cannot be strong enough to prevent crime.

People who get killed forthe crime of wrong Parking might disagree here.

 

[Roybe]

People who get killed forthe crime of wrong Parking might disagree here.

That is a crime they want to not occur...thus the extremity of the punishment.

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Missions that have you kill civilians (non "wanted" characters) should require travel to an anarchy system. That shouldn't be too hard to implement, and makes more sense to me.

But killing civilians has a reason within the game...it is to weaken or strengthen a minor faction....killing the civies in an anarchy system makes no sense.

 

[Roybe]

Depends on the consequences no?

If they wanted to squash ship destruction "because I can" zeroing someone's account would be functionally quite effective.

Obviously they won't, but they could.

And this is the balance the devs have to walk...how to 'punish' a behavior without stopping the behavior completely.

It is very easy to stop every crime in the game. It is very difficult to punish the same behavior AND still expect people to engage in that behavior.


If to strong a response is created...people will be complaining and leaving over that...then the return to a less secure system...will cause others to complain and leave.

Crime and punishment is not black and white in a morally ambiguous game. And these shades of gray do not make the game conducive to play for those that demand black and white justice.

 

[Faded Glory]

And this is the balance the devs have to walk...how to 'punish' a behavior without stopping the behavior completely.

It is very easy to stop every crime in the game. It is very difficult to punish the same behavior AND still expect people to engage in that behavior.


If to strong a response is created...people will be complaining and leaving over that...then the return to a less secure system...will cause others to complain and leave.

Crime and punishment is not black and white in a morally ambiguous game. And these shades of gray do not make the game conducive to play for those that demand black and white justice.

Yep. Exactly.

Take a look at any Bulletin Board. Way over 50% of all missions carry the risk / chance of a fine or bounty.

 

[ianw]

And this is the balance the devs have to walk...how to 'punish' a behavior without stopping the behavior completely.

It is very easy to stop every crime in the game. It is very difficult to punish the same behavior AND still expect people to engage in that behavior.


If to strong a response is created...people will be complaining and leaving over that...then the return to a less secure system...will cause others to complain and leave.

Crime and punishment is not black and white in a morally ambiguous game. And these shades of gray do not make the game conducive to play for those that demand black and white justice.

But that for me is the crux of the problem.

Some people want to fantasise playing a psychopathic rsole that blows stuff up for fun whilst giggling maniacally. That's fine if you're in an amateur dramatic society or a big budget Hollywood blockbuster where you know the victim is also an "Ak-tor".

But in this game - as we know - lots of people want to play in open to meet other people without being someone else's content whenever that person feels like it.

And that's where it falls down for me. Many of the non consensual PVPers refuse to acknowledge the fact that what they want requires a non-consensual victim - because "rules" and that's absolutely okay as far as they are concerned.

And that's where I think it does become black and white and where I believe you either need to have separate PVE login at the main menu or have a PVP flag.


Or FD could just be more honest about it;


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