Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[DarkWalker]

God forbid someone would mention sex in all the vices in this galaxy!

Isn't the rating required to even hint at sex happening higher than the rating to show a character's head being ripped off on screen?

---

Then why not aren't more folks interested in discussing the issues with Open and how they could possibly be improved instead of just instantly jumping to the DON'T TOUCH MY MODES! or WORKING AS INTENDED!? I find it almost as disappointing as the pointless killing.

In my case, because restricting or removing the modes would make the game useless for me. Thus, I'm only willing to discuss solutions that would leave the modes, and mode changing, in place.
(Not strictly true; I would be willing to discuss solutions with a PvP flag, or where the death penalty was completely removed. But I believe those would be even less workable for the players that want a single Open mode than the current arrangement.)

---

And to make things more complicated everybody has a different opinion about what would improve Open mode.

Obviously. Different people, different preferences, different views about which kinds of activities should be more rewarding, and so on.

---

It's like people like subscribing to the scripted grind.

If the alternative involves non-consensual PvP? You betcha, watching paint dry is more interesting than forced PvP!

Explain to me how a revised crime system and option 3 does not solve the problem. The revised crime system benefits everyone and the separate galaxy means everyone who hates the idea of open only can still play on their own solo/private/open land. In fact, nothing would change for them as it stands right now. At all.

Frontier doesn't want to do Option 3. From the start they wanted every single player in the same Galaxy Simulation. And yeah, this explicitly includes Solo players.

It's also bad in the sense that it can be a barrier preventing friends from playing together merely because they have different preferences.

I'm not dead set against it, though. As long as the players that don't want to be a part of it still have all the current modes, I would say go for it. But I do think it would have fewer enough players in that server that even the players that are pushing for it would give up and get back to the normal server, as happened with Age of Conan's Blood and Glory PvP servers.

Also, improving the crime system would be a good move regardless of anything else.

 

[M_Biscotti]

Wow ! I read the beginning and the ending of the neverending story and found a circular divergent series ^_^. Why not reasonning in these terms :

Solo = Solo pve
Open = pve + pvp V1
Powerplay = pve + pvp v2
Arena = pvp

Then where is the multi pve ? Nowhere. Imho, they could implement something like that :
- Player in "none" faction cannot be damaged by players
- delete solo

We would obtain in this case :
Open = pve
Powerplay = pve + pvp
Arena = pvp

Because I cannot simply imagine anyone saying : I hate people ! I hate when someone tells me hello ! I hate when a friend would pay me a beer (1t beer dropped )

Regards.

 

[Mouse]

Doesn't make it good gameplay

Secondly, just because there is no kill missions doesn't mean there cant be emergent gameplay through player COOPERATION or WARFARE.

It's like people like subscribing to the scripted grind.


Ok first... you need to understand what "emergent gameplay" is Emergent game play refers to complex situations in video games, board games, or table top role-playing games that emerge from the interaction of relatively simple game mechanics. No where does emergent game play mean that other people are involved.. you can have emergent game play by yourself.

People subscribe for many reasons including the scripted grind. People have fun and relax in all sorts of ways, just because it gets your trousers all bunched up that some reasons are for the grind is no skin off their nose. They bought the game for their own reasons and never needed your approval or acceptance to do so . Your continued harping on the subject only shows your intolerance for other styles of game play and others... don't care.


Explain to me how a revised crime system and option 3 does not solve the problem. The revised crime system benefits everyone and the separate galaxy means everyone who hates the idea of open only can still play on their own solo/private/open land. In fact, nothing would change for them as it stands right now. At all.

In every single post I've made that was pro-open always came with the disclaimer of revamping the crime system, with suggestions and examples from other games. I know the crime-system is very bad and in favor of murderers right now -

Since that was directed at someone else I will let them answer, I've made multiple posts on ways to make the game's crime system more viable.

I also know that Open is the most emergent, immersive and unscripted game mode there is because Players themselves have unlimited potential for gameplay.

You keepa using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means. Sorry had to channel Inigo Montoya there for a second. Open is one of three modes, all three are unscripted and immersive. You do realize that PLAYERS are in all three modes.. and in two of them more than one can be in the same area and possibly see each other. Players are not required to be immersive, they don't make one mode better than others, in fact going by the # of posts of people leaving open, they can also be THE EXACT OPPOSITE of immersive and be detrimental to the mode. As for unscripted, unless you have two people saying "I am going to do this and you do that.." everything is unscripted.

I won't even bother getting into the part where solo undermines effort and sense of worth because you're going to have fun explaining the other part.

I am glad you "won't even bother" as it is false and untrue. Solo does not undermine effort in the way you want to think it is. The only "undermining" that happens in solo is the DESIGNED undermining that is a regular part in the game, be it Power Play or supporting a minor faction in a system. Your continued argument that Open is the "best" mode and solo damages it is a straw man fallacy with no basis in any fact beyond the opinions of some. The only "undermining" off effort and sense of worth is occurring IN OPEN.. which drives people to other modes such as Solo. Yet some want to blame Solo.. that is like tying the dog's leash to a pipe under the kitchen sink and when the dog pulls and breaks the pipe causing a flood you blame the cat, who jumped up on the counter to not get wet, for the mess.

Thankyou.

You are Welcome. If you need things straightened out again just let us know. Many of us are happy to point out fallacies.

 

[Mouse]

Wow ! I read the beginning and the ending of the neverending story and found a circular divergent series ^_^. Why not reasonning in these terms :

Solo = Solo pve
Open = pve + pvp V1
Powerplay = pve + pvp v2
Arena = pvp

Then where is the multi pve ? Nowhere. Imho, they could implement something like that :
- Player in "none" faction cannot be damaged by players
- delete solo

We would obtain in this case :
Open = pve
Powerplay = pve + pvp
Arena = pvp

Because I cannot simply imagine anyone saying : I hate people ! I hate when someone tells me hello ! I hate when a friend would pay me a beer (1t beer dropped )

Regards.

Some people want to play the game alone, why drop solo? A better solution is:

Open-PVP = free form PVP
Open-PVE = free form PVE
CQC = Arena style PVP
Solo = single player PVE

 

[why fi at all]

Nor do I. And quite frankly, I'd rather leave things the way they are than break that "sense of size" by allowing rapid travel simply for the sake of facilitating wing formation.



I don't think the game should set the percentage at all.

For example:
I'm running trade into a dangerous area. I post an "ad" - Combat pilots wanted for escort of a T9 from ShakingInMyBoots station in RainbowSafeZone A to HellHole Orbital in SharkInfestedCustard B. Split rate 40%(that I set). Apply here (button or link). Indicate ship config, combat ranking and willingness to accept additional wingmates.
Combat pilot looks at that, knows that if he applies and I invite him to the wing then he and any other wingmates I hire will split 40% of my profits from the run. He also knows that I and any other wingmates I hire will split 40% of any bounty vouchers he claims along the way. He applies, stating he will accept no more than one additional wingman.
Three other combat pilots apply stating they would accept up to two additional wingmen.
Two others apply stating they will accept no additional wingmen (they want the 40% of my trade profit all to themselves)
I check them out. One I reject immediately, I've heard from other traders that this guy tends to turn pirate in the middle of the run and bring in three other buddies to take down any resistance from loyal wingmates. Of the rest, only one is combat ranked higher than Master, he's ranked Elite, flying a completely combat-maxed Python, but he's also one of the ones that doesn't want any other wingmen along to share the profit. Two of the Master-ranked ones will accept one wingman and they are flying a vulture and a combat 'conda. I choose to hire those two and invite them to the wing, plotting a route that will allow us all to jump it. When we dock and I sell my cargo I lose 40% of my profit and that is split evenly between my two escorts giving them each 20% of the profit from a T9s hold on the run in addition to 60% of the bounty vouchers for any pirate they blew away en route. On the other hand I get 20% of any bounty voucher either of them collected along the way too, the other 20% going to the other escort.
I could have hired better pilots, but they demand higher split rates or fewer wingmen to divide it between - I set the rate and pick from those that are willing to come along at that rate.
Something like this would let combat pilots share properly in the profit of the trader that hired them. If you don't like the percentage the trader is offering, hire yourself to somebody else who is offering a rate you like or wait for them to realize their offer is too low to attract decent coverage and up it a little.

With something like THAT in place, I'd be spending a lot more time in open, either taking on escort duties in a combat ship or running trade with hired guns to back me up.

i like this idea.
+1 rep to you.

this actually sounds very much like what was mentioned in a video interview about how it is best for players to deal with griefing.
he doesn't specifically mention wingmen, but what he does say is that he expects players to protect each other from other players, something that's not working very well right now since it relies almost entirely on the bounty system.

however your idea allows a much greater incentive and a record system for customers to rate the escorts.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow ! I read the beginning and the ending of the neverending story and found a circular divergent series ^_^. Why not reasonning in these terms :

Solo = Solo pve
Open = pve + pvp V1
Powerplay = pve + pvp v2
Arena = pvp

Then where is the multi pve ? Nowhere. Imho, they could implement something like that :
- Player in "none" faction cannot be damaged by players
- delete solo

We would obtain in this case :
Open = pve
Powerplay = pve + pvp
Arena = pvp

Because I cannot simply imagine anyone saying : I hate people ! I hate when someone tells me hello ! I hate when a friend would pay me a beer (1t beer dropped )

Regards.

once again insulting peoples reasons for playing solo.

 

[Cowboy Bats]

Then why not aren't more folks interested in discussing the issues with Open and how they could possibly be improved instead of just instantly jumping to the DON'T TOUCH MY MODES! or WORKING AS INTENDED!? I find it almost as disappointing as the pointless killing.

That's an easy question to answer: Those of us who don't play in open, don't really care about open. However, we do enjoy our game as it is, so yes, we are vocal when suggestions to change our game to suit a mode that we don't care about comes up. What could be more simple linear reasoning than that?

 

[M_Biscotti]

That's an easy question to answer: Those of us who don't play in open, don't really care about open. However, we do enjoy our game as it is, so yes, we are vocal when suggestions to change our game to suit a mode that we don't care about comes up. What could be more simple linear reasoning than that?

Why fi at all says I'm insulting people, you say you don't play in open and don't care about, like other people, I read people quit the game because they see no one.
I'm lost. Completely. I played many solo games before so i like solo, they have 2 very convenient options I do love : reload and pause I also play a mmo called TESO where in fact there's is an "open" equivalent but pve only (players cannot harm players) I based my proposal on that.

I started Elite 90h (played time) ago and only played in open. At start I wondered « why not, let's give a try, I don't really know the game so... ». I cannot say even now if I met a real player, I don't know, may be. We cannot reload nor pause the game. So, I don't understand the difference. I'm really sorry if anybody felt offended. I started a thread elsewhere in my mother tongue to eliminate misunderstandings while knowing more about people who want to be absolutely sure there are no real players around. It's not an insult, I really do not understand. Sorry again if I offended anybody.

regards

 

[why fi at all]

Frontier has stated that there will be no offline mode. Are you referring to Solo mode? is it risk free? no, no it is not, is it pvp free, yes, but that's about it.

Yes solo mode, risk free for me it has been for nearly a year. I can trade and watch movies just fly around with no worries i have not once been blown up or died in solo mode unless through my own stupidity.

so are you intentionally being rude and insulting here?
i am here with a monitor that is almost a meter across and using large type and a magnifying glass to read this.
i have out my special "GIMP" keyboard with a plastic plate on top of it with holes drilled in it over each key so that i can type.

i don't need these things all the time, and this is not even what i would call a "bad day".

but even on my best days i can't kill the NPC's in solo.

i play the mobius group on my good days so that if someone wants to chat i can get a sentence typed out before someone thinks i am just not interested in communication.

most of the time i play solo.

for me to play this game at all is a great victory for me, and you and so many others get in here and belittle me with impunity by calling solo mode the easy mode for cowards and worse.

you make me very angry with your insults.

the three mode were not built for people like me, or maybe they were, i don't know.
however because of the three mode system i CAN and DO play this game.

i want to make some very insulting comments back to you, but that's not how i play the game.
and if i sit here THINKING those insults i suppose that counts as playing solo.

 

[Asp Explorer]

i am here with a monitor that is almost a meter across and using large type and a magnifying glass to read this.

Have you tried using the built-in Windows Magnifier? It might help. Zoomtext is another option - but that is extremely spendy.

 

[Mouse]

so are you intentionally being rude and insulting here?
i am here with a monitor that is almost a meter across and using large type and a magnifying glass to read this.
i have out my special "GIMP" keyboard with a plastic plate on top of it with holes drilled in it over each key so that i can type.

i don't need these things all the time, and this is not even what i would call a "bad day".

but even on my best days i can't kill the NPC's in solo.

i play the mobius group on my good days so that if someone wants to chat i can get a sentence typed out before someone thinks i am just not interested in communication.

most of the time i play solo.

for me to play this game at all is a great victory for me, and you and so many others get in here and belittle me with impunity by calling solo mode the easy mode for cowards and worse.

you make me very angry with your insults.

the three mode were not built for people like me, or maybe they were, i don't know.
however because of the three mode system i CAN and DO play this game.

i want to make some very insulting comments back to you, but that's not how i play the game.
and if i sit here THINKING those insults i suppose that counts as playing solo.

Sadly some cannot look beyond their own ego when playing a game and if something is easy for them than it should be for everyone. Do not waste your emotions on anger towards them. Real life will give em a reality check soon enough. Enjoy the game and play it how you are able to.

 

[Cody]

i want to make some very insulting comments back to you, but that's not how i play the game.

Don't let them get to you, amigo - ignore the playground taunts!

 

[Roland2]

Why fi at all says I'm insulting people, you say you don't play in open and don't care about, like other people, I read people quit the game because they see no one.
I'm lost. Completely. I played many solo games before so i like solo, they have 2 very convenient options I do love : reload and pause I also play a mmo called TESO where in fact there's is an "open" equivalent but pve only (players cannot harm players) I based my proposal on that.

I started Elite 90h (played time) ago and only played in open. At start I wondered « why not, let's give a try, I don't really know the game so... ». I cannot say even now if I met a real player, I don't know, may be. We cannot reload nor pause the game. So, I don't understand the difference. I'm really sorry if anybody felt offended. I started a thread elsewhere in my mother tongue to eliminate misunderstandings while knowing more about people who want to be absolutely sure there are no real players around. It's not an insult, I really do not understand. Sorry again if I offended anybody.

regards

Getting rid of Solo mode, is not an option for many people. You may thing that Open PVE was a reasonable substitute, but that doesn't take into account people. I play TESO also, and the chat I see on there I could do without, and I certainly wouldn't want my kids to see it. In solo mode, I don't have to worry about what other people feel is appropriate language to use around 7 yr olds (the EU PEGI rating for Elite: Dangerous).

 

[Mouse]

Getting rid of Solo mode, is not an option for many people. You may thing that Open PVE was a reasonable substitute, but that doesn't take into account people. I play TESO also, and the chat I see on there I could do without, and I certainly wouldn't want my kids to see it. In solo mode, I don't have to worry about what other people feel is appropriate language to use around 7 yr olds (the EU PEGI rating for Elite: Dangerous).

I'd love a solo server for TESO

 

[why fi at all]

Have you tried using the built-in Windows Magnifier? It might help. Zoomtext is another option - but that is extremely spendy.

the glass is on a swing arm and i can shift around behind it to scan the screen, where as the magnifying software requires very precise mouse control.
yes i know the mouse sensitivity can be adjusted, but the magnifying glass is a hold out from the old days when i still had the dexterity to work on clocks and other small equipment.
i keep it because i have hopes that someday i'll be able to do such things again.

i am working on training myself to use voice attack for many controls.
i am having moderate success, but it requires pretty consistent pronunciation of words, although as time goes on it does seem to understand me better.
but as it is i am still "unencumbered" in comparison to hawking.
i love that guy.

 

[Mouse]

the glass is on a swing arm and i can shift around behind it to scan the screen, where as the magnifying software requires very precise mouse control.
yes i know the mouse sensitivity can be adjusted, but the magnifying glass is a hold out from the old days when i still had the dexterity to work on clocks and other small equipment.
i keep it because i have hopes that someday i'll be able to do such things again.

i am working on training myself to use voice attack for many controls.
i am having moderate success, but it requires pretty consistent pronunciation of words, although as time goes on it does seem to understand me better.
but as it is i am still "unencumbered" in comparison to hawking.
i love that guy.

can't give you more rep right now so +5 Lbs of Cubeo Razorback Bacon ^,^.


I've working with voice attack too and admit I love it... when it can understand me.

 

[fademist]

Why fi at all says I'm insulting people, you say you don't play in open and don't care about, like other people, I read people quit the game because they see no one.
I'm lost. Completely. I played many solo games before so i like solo, they have 2 very convenient options I do love : reload and pause I also play a mmo called TESO where in fact there's is an "open" equivalent but pve only (players cannot harm players) I based my proposal on that.

I started Elite 90h (played time) ago and only played in open. At start I wondered « why not, let's give a try, I don't really know the game so... ». I cannot say even now if I met a real player, I don't know, may be. We cannot reload nor pause the game. So, I don't understand the difference. I'm really sorry if anybody felt offended. I started a thread elsewhere in my mother tongue to eliminate misunderstandings while knowing more about people who want to be absolutely sure there are no real players around. It's not an insult, I really do not understand. Sorry again if I offended anybody.

regards

u start insult ppl from the point u want to remove a mode that they payed to play...not all ppl bought the game for the open mode u know...

 

[Hempstead]

Nor do I. And quite frankly, I'd rather leave things the way they are than break that "sense of size" by allowing rapid travel simply for the sake of facilitating wing formation.



I don't think the game should set the percentage at all.

For example:
I'm running trade into a dangerous area. I post an "ad" - Combat pilots wanted for escort of a T9 from ShakingInMyBoots station in RainbowSafeZone A to HellHole Orbital in SharkInfestedCustard B. Split rate 40%(that I set). Apply here (button or link). Indicate ship config, combat ranking and willingness to accept additional wingmates.
Combat pilot looks at that, knows that if he applies and I invite him to the wing then he and any other wingmates I hire will split 40% of my profits from the run. He also knows that I and any other wingmates I hire will split 40% of any bounty vouchers he claims along the way. He applies, stating he will accept no more than one additional wingman.
Three other combat pilots apply stating they would accept up to two additional wingmen.
Two others apply stating they will accept no additional wingmen (they want the 40% of my trade profit all to themselves)
I check them out. One I reject immediately, I've heard from other traders that this guy tends to turn pirate in the middle of the run and bring in three other buddies to take down any resistance from loyal wingmates. Of the rest, only one is combat ranked higher than Master, he's ranked Elite, flying a completely combat-maxed Python, but he's also one of the ones that doesn't want any other wingmen along to share the profit. Two of the Master-ranked ones will accept one wingman and they are flying a vulture and a combat 'conda. I choose to hire those two and invite them to the wing, plotting a route that will allow us all to jump it. When we dock and I sell my cargo I lose 40% of my profit and that is split evenly between my two escorts giving them each 20% of the profit from a T9s hold on the run in addition to 60% of the bounty vouchers for any pirate they blew away en route. On the other hand I get 20% of any bounty voucher either of them collected along the way too, the other 20% going to the other escort.
I could have hired better pilots, but they demand higher split rates or fewer wingmen to divide it between - I set the rate and pick from those that are willing to come along at that rate.
Something like this would let combat pilots share properly in the profit of the trader that hired them. If you don't like the percentage the trader is offering, hire yourself to somebody else who is offering a rate you like or wait for them to realize their offer is too low to attract decent coverage and up it a little.

With something like THAT in place, I'd be spending a lot more time in open, either taking on escort duties in a combat ship or running trade with hired guns to back me up.

i like this idea.
+1 rep to you.

this actually sounds very much like what was mentioned in a video interview about how it is best for players to deal with griefing.
he doesn't specifically mention wingmen, but what he does say is that he expects players to protect each other from other players, something that's not working very well right now since it relies almost entirely on the bounty system.

however your idea allows a much greater incentive and a record system for customers to rate the escorts.

- - - Updated - - -




once again insulting peoples reasons for playing solo.

Jusy say no to armed wing escort!

You actually have to reveal your secret trade route to the "escort." How do you know they are not going to turn traders another day and run your trade routes dry? Or tell his brother, who in turns tells his college buddies, who turned out to be a bunch of pshyco gankers? Or worse, posts it on the forum or redit and let the world run you dry.

How do you think I made billions in this game? Keep my mouth shut about my secret trade routes so I can make consistent money every time I trade, day in and day out over the past 9 month. I got an hour? That's 6M. I got 20 minutes? That's 2M. It adds up!

Some might argue that there so many good trade routes out there; it's easy to find on 3rd party trade tools. But, profitable and persistent trade routes that sustain months of trading by 'Condas are actually quite difficult to find. The author of one of those trade tools actually said that he doesn't really trade over weekends or somthing similar, because they got run down by the users of his trade tool.

The idea that armed wing escorts you can hire in Open as a counter argument to the ganker problem is a bit naive or willful ignorance ot flat out didn't think it through, as it ignores the glaring problem of the "trust" issue. Note that armed escorts with "trusted" friends is viable although not desirable (both can trade instead of one trade one escort. But that doesn't work for people who have no friends who are effective combat pilots. It's more effective to find a good trade route that does not require armed escort. I do not qualify routes requiring armed escort good trade routes, because clearly other people know about it.

I am all for making the galaxy more dangerous, but armed escort you can hire is not a particular effective mechanism for balancing it.

 

[Faded Glory]

Wow ! I read the beginning and the ending of the neverending story and found a circular divergent series ^_^. Why not reasonning in these terms :

Solo = Solo pve
Open = pve + pvp V1
Powerplay = pve + pvp v2
Arena = pvp

Then where is the multi pve ? Nowhere. Imho, they could implement something like that :
- Player in "none" faction cannot be damaged by players
- delete solo

We would obtain in this case :
Open = pve
Powerplay = pve + pvp
Arena = pvp

Because I cannot simply imagine anyone saying : I hate people ! I hate when someone tells me hello ! I hate when a friend would pay me a beer (1t beer dropped )

Regards.

Quite a few people would indeed like an 'Open PvE' mode to take the onus off of the Mobius group, but I think you underestimate the number of players who don't really like it when they are hailed over comms uninvited.

Most players, when they log into this game do so with at least some purpose. They are going to do / complete a mission, trade for a while to earn some credits, whatever, they are not just sitting at their computer waiting for someone to say hello, and when someone does, even assuming they are friendly and polite, they are essentially interfering with what that player is doing, no matter how minor such an interference may be, and I reckon for many people that is not appreciated.

It has nothing to do with whether you like people or not.

 

[Sylveria]

Quite a few people would indeed like an 'Open PvE' mode to take the onus off of the Mobius group, but I think you underestimate the number of players who don't really like it when they are hailed over comms uninvited.

Most players, when they log into this game do so with at least some purpose. They are going to do / complete a mission, trade for a while to earn some credits, whatever, they are not just sitting at their computer waiting for someone to say hello, and when someone does, even assuming they are friendly and polite, they are essentially interfering with what that player is doing, no matter how minor such an interference may be, and I reckon for many people that is not appreciated.

It has nothing to do with whether you like people or not.

"Group Mode" is fine and all- but these are really good points, too.

As it's been stated before- there are problems even with Group Mode- it's not quite "Open PvE". There's no real stringent controls on group functionality, and with thousands of players in Mobius at present- I'd imagine it can be quite a task to manage it. Not at all knocking Mobius- I'm pointing out that it's a great attempt to make an "Open PvE" environment but it's not the mode in itself.

Personally. I would like to see an Open PvE option instead of "Group Mode", and I think Group Mode (aka "Wings") should have been added as a functionality for all the multiplayer options, rather than a completely separate mode, but I'm not the developer so I'm not going to armchair quarterback the decision or why it was made.

 

[Faded Glory]

"Group Mode" is fine and all- but these are really good points, too.

As it's been stated before- there are problems even with Group Mode- it's not quite "Open PvE". There's no real stringent controls on group functionality, and with thousands of players in Mobius at present- I'd imagine it can be quite a task to manage it. Not at all knocking Mobius- I'm pointing out that it's a great attempt to make an "Open PvE" environment but it's not the mode in itself.

Personally. I would like to see an Open PvE option instead of "Group Mode", and I think Group Mode (aka "Wings") should have been added as a functionality for all the multiplayer options, rather than a completely separate mode, but I'm not the developer so I'm not going to armchair quarterback the decision or why it was made.

I'm inclined to agree, although I don't think FD will create an Open PvE mode...

It seems to me that most grouping could be (and probably is) done through your friends list, after all, those are the people you actually want to play with. Then it's just a decision, do we want to play PvE or PvP. Solo stays exactly as is.

As you point out, it's easy for us to speculate and suggest, and at least with the modes as they are, we have the choice of (to a point) who we play with, and whether we wish to engage in PvP or not thanks to Mobius. I'll take that over (most) other suggestions.