Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Mouse]

My particular belief is that any part of the game that wouldn't exist if players were given a choice should never have been implemented in the first place.

And "path of least resistance" isn't an excuse. If that argument was valid in any way, no game would have difficulty settings, as everyone would simply play on the easiest setting. Besides, the easiest way to "beat" a game is to simply watch someone good playing on Twitch or Youtube.

I never understood the path of least resistance malarky.. that is lightning.. if that were true I'd be in an anaconda now or something Not spending over an hour and a half taking a Sidy and jumping and hoping to be able to refuel to get a ship I wanted

 

[Jockey79]

Less than a month since the last +1000



I think FD may need to supply Mobius with a new mouse every month and a wage for his time clicking [Accept] and doing admin.

 

[Benedictus]

So slowly this discussion here is annoying me because PVP players will be somewhat subordinated, which is not true.

No PVP player wants to impose its gameplay to a PVE player. Rather, it is the other way round. The PVE players have the most fun. But the PVP players can't have fun. Neither in PVE nor in PVP.

Now the PVE players will wonder why the PVP player has no fun at PVE. The answer of this question is quite easy. Because ED has no content. Elite Dangerous is a sandbox without bucket, molds and water to build a sand castle. Elite Dangerous is dry bread with no spread. Another dry bread (Powerplay, Horizons) makes the bread not palatable. Elite Dangerous is a big ocean, which is exactly 1 cm deep. With Horizons the ocean is now 2 cm deep. PVE in Elite Dangerous is boring, because the depth and the toy is missing. And if the content is missing, then it is the player who makes the game even more exciting. But still we lack clan features, free money and goods between players, money transfers between players, Auctions, Housing (Capturing and owning stations and capital ships), so anything that might make a sandbox dynamically, if story and content is missing.

Not all players can be traders. And it's also not a real trader, what they are, but rather a Space Trucker. And the current infrastructure favors just PVE players in a double sense. They have their PVE and they are truck drivers who are competing to other truck drivers and logistics companies. The difference, however, they have a really great magic glasses. While the other truck driver other logistics companies stuck in a traffic jam on the highway, the truck driver uses his magic glasses on (solo and Private Group) and suddenly all other road users are invisible. He has free rein, comes quickly to his destination and pats himself on his back / knocks himself on the shoulder and brags to be "Elite", while the other truck drivers (Open) still stuck in traffic. So why should Traders even play in Open?

And when all truck drivers looking for a magic glasses to have an advantage it does not need any roles like Pirates or Bounty Hunter. Where no Trader, theres no pirate theres no Bounty Hunter. So remain the roles of Space Truckers and the Explorer, which still make sense. To be a miner ... should we really discuss this role?

And beeing a Trucker and Explorer u need to be the type of man for. To do so it is highly repetitive and long-winded. So if there is still no PVP: PVE is not an alternative. So what should they do? Leaving? Saving the money? Waiting for another game?

If in Elite Dangerous critics keep silent, and only the Fanboys with magic glasses talk, what claim has the development team then to make the game attractive for the widest possible group of players?

Or are they content to be a niche, and content to force the few remaining players the last money out of pocket, till Season X will come out?

 

[Robert Maynard]

No PVP player wants to impose its gameplay to a PVE player. Rather, it is the other way round. The PVE players have the most fun. But the PVP players can't have fun. Neither in PVE nor in PVP.

You should read some of the posts from PvP players who require their targets to be "unwilling"....

 

[Zieman]

Now the PVE players will wonder why the PVP player has no fun at PVE. The answer of this question is quite easy. Because ED has no content.

I'm curious, what is this mystical 'content' you talk about?

But still we lack clan features, free money and goods between players, money transfers between players, Auctions, Housing (Capturing and owning stations and capital ships)

Thank GOD there's none of that crap in E: D!

 

[Mouse]

So slowly this discussion here is annoying me because PVP players will be somewhat subordinated, which is not true.

No PVP player wants to impose its gameplay to a PVE player. Rather, it is the other way round. The PVE players have the most fun. But the PVP players can't have fun. Neither in PVE nor in PVP.

Um... do you expect us to believe this? Because there is so much overwhelming evidence to the contrary that it staggers me someone would blatantly try to claim this. PVPers have been imposing their game play on PVErs and some even believe it is their right too. PVPers have Open and CQC how can they not have fun?

Now the PVE players will wonder why the PVP player has no fun at PVE. The answer of this question is quite easy. Because ED has no content. Elite Dangerous is a sandbox without bucket, molds and water to build a sand castle. Elite Dangerous is dry bread with no spread. Another dry bread (Powerplay, Horizons) makes the bread not palatable. Elite Dangerous is a big ocean, which is exactly 1 cm deep. With Horizons the ocean is now 2 cm deep. PVE in Elite Dangerous is boring, because the depth and the toy is missing. And if the content is missing, then it is the player who makes the game even more exciting. But still we lack clan features, free money and goods between players, money transfers between players, Auctions, Housing (Capturing and owning stations and capital ships), so anything that might make a sandbox dynamically, if story and content is missing.

There is a HUGE amount of content in ED.. if you go look for it.. infact you completely contradict yourself in the next paragraph talking about some of the content you say does not exist in the game... and with saying it is a big ocean but then claiming it is only 1cm deep..

And I am sorry but I don't want gold sellers in this game apparently you do and if you feel that is content then that explains why you don't think there is any since this game is not "pay to win". Now I would not mind it if people could craft ship components and such and rent shop space in not major station maybe, but "capture and owing" crap is EVE talk and no thank you. You can influence a minor faction and even ask to create one, but no clans and such.

Not all players can be traders. And it's also not a real trader, what they are, but rather a Space Trucker. And the current infrastructure favors just PVE players in a double sense. They have their PVE and they are truck drivers who are competing to other truck drivers and logistics companies. The difference, however, they have a really great magic glasses. While the other truck driver other logistics companies stuck in a traffic jam on the highway, the truck driver uses his magic glasses on (solo and Private Group) and suddenly all other road users are invisible. He has free rein, comes quickly to his destination and pats himself on his back / knocks himself on the shoulder and brags to be "Elite", while the other truck drivers (Open) still stuck in traffic. So why should Traders even play in Open?

Not all players can be traders that is true, that is why there are 3 main "elite" classes which you kinda ignore here..and not all traders are truckers.. Truckers are dispatched told what to pick up where to take it. While there are missions like that, many traders look for routes and cargos.. they are traders, some smuggle too either through missions or because they found a profit.. so ED isn't Euro Trucker in space.. sorry.

Then you claim that traders have magic glasses and that Solo/Group are some magical place where the trader is in no danger... heck would be nice.. and it shows that you feel that the only danger to traders is other people... maybe you think NPCs are just things read to children to scare them before bedtime or something... but again.. you said that PVPers don't force themselves on PVERs.. hmmm.

And when all truck drivers looking for a magic glasses to have an advantage it does not need any roles like Pirates or Bounty Hunter. Where no Trader, theres no pirate theres no Bounty Hunter. So remain the roles of Space Truckers and the Explorer, which still make sense. To be a miner ... should we really discuss this role?

Miner is a good roll for people and again while you mention Pirate and Bounty Hunters, you ignore all other combat professions people can be, plus CQC. And again you claim that the "trucker" is essential for pirating but made the claim PVPers are not forcing themselves on PVERs..

And beeing a Trucker and Explorer u need to be the type of man for. To do so it is highly repetitive and long-winded. So if there is still no PVP: PVE is not an alternative. So what should they do? Leaving? Saving the money? Waiting for another game?

Anything you do in a game usually is repetitive and sometimes long winded, even PVP. Depending on my routes I can be very "shortwinded" And clearly PVE is an alternative for many yet PVP runs open and CQC.. if somehow PVP died out.. the game would still be here. You want to blame PVERs for PVP boredom, but if people are going to solo/ PVE grouping then clearly they don't want to PVP. You can PVP those who want to PVP.. you again said PVPers don't want to force themselves onto PVERs, yet your entire argument is arguing for that exact thing.

If in Elite Dangerous critics keep silent, and only the Fanboys with magic glasses talk, what claim has the development team then to make the game attractive for the widest possible group of players?

Or are they content to be a niche, and content to force the few remaining players the last money out of pocket, till Season X will come out?

So PVErs are "fanboys" now? And oh looks "few remaining players" so you assume that PVPers make up the bulk of the gamebase.. if so then why are you not making content that you say doesn't exist? If there are so many of you, than you can have grand battles..

 

[Robert Maynard]

.... and now there is a call to separate the galaxy state so that players with / without Horizons do not play together: here.

 

[Mouse]

.... and now there is a call to separate the galaxy state so that players with / without Horizons do not play together: here.

*Headdesk*

 

[Jockey79]

.... and now there is a call to separate the galaxy state so that players with / without Horizons do not play together: here.

We knew it would happen.

So will we end up;

Solo Vs Open Vs Groups with new Horizons Mega Thread

 

[Benedictus]

and do you think this is the fault of the players? ED has made too many technical mistakes at/from the beginning that I was wondering how other developers could do it so long right.

 

[Mohrgan]

and do you think this is the fault of the players? ED has made too many technical mistakes at/from the beginning that I was wondering how other developers could do it so long right.

These decisions are not mistakes. They are part of ED making a game with as broad a playerbase as possible. These ideas came from the the Backers as well as the Designers. PvP is not the design focus, it was simply a possibility. Plus I am not exactly sure what you mean. "....I was wondering how other developers could do it so long right." Can you explain what you intended for this to mean?

 

[Lestenio]

and do you think this is the fault of the players? ED has made too many technical mistakes at/from the beginning that I was wondering how other developers could do it so long right.

Just becasue you don't like the choices does not make them technical mistakes. They made the choices they made based on informed decisions.

 

[Jockey79]

and do you think this is the fault of the players? ED has made too many technical mistakes at/from the beginning that I was wondering how other developers could do it so long right.

Frontier has not made "mistakes" at all, they are following what was discussed from Kickstarter and the DDA.
They cannot just click their fingers and get an instant game, it takes time - the plan is over 10 years, we just had year 1 complete.

Here you go, do some reading;

Kickstarter - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous

DDA - https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=36

And something to watch;

YT : Early Dev videos - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7glm5rbPHKysKIiEKt86qasedNyRainK
YT : Progress Videos - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7glm5rbPHKw6e6_KkwUusJAzDzO9Yp0e

Perhaps before claiming mistakes were made, you should know the subject matter first.

 

[Benedictus]

Just becasue you don't like the choices does not make them technical mistakes. They made the choices they made based on informed decisions.

A galaxy with 400 billion star systems without content is a mistake.

A man poor galaxy with 400 billion star systems and players who are separated by game modes and instances, instance bugs, and now also through extensions such as Horizons, is a mistake.

A single player mode, which requires an online connection, and co-influences the world of multiplayer gamers instead of influence its own world, is a mistake.

To create a sandbox without the typical freedoms of a sandbox, is a mistake.

Designing a game that neither is sandbox nore has interesting story and campaign, but Grinding is an essential part of the game, this is a mistake.

 

[Lestenio]

A galaxy with 400 billion star systems without content is a mistake.

A man poor galaxy with 400 billion star systems and players who are separated by game modes and instances, instance bugs, and now also through extensions such as Horizons, is a mistake.

A single player mode, which requires an online connection, and co-influences the world of multiplayer gamers instead of influence its own world, is a mistake.

To create a sandbox without the typical freedoms of a sandbox, is a mistake.

Designing a game that neither is sandbox nore has interesting story and campaign, but Grinding is an essential part of the game, this is a mistake.

No, not a mistake at all.
The devs setout to build the game and they did just that. Again, just because you don't agree with their choices does not make it a mistake.

The only mistake I see is yours for buying a game you don't like. I have done that many times. I just move on.

 

[Jockey79]

The only mistake I see is yours for buying a game you don't like. I have done that many times. I just move on.

Exactly, so may buy things without knowing what it is they are buying - then it is everyone elses fault.

 

[DarkWalker]

A galaxy with 400 billion star systems without content is a mistake.

Depends on what you call content. Like every game in the Elite franchise, ED doesn't handhold the player. So, anyone that expects PvE content to be spoon-fed to the player will find a lack of content in any Elite game.

A man poor galaxy with 400 billion star systems and players who are separated by game modes and instances, instance bugs, and now also through extensions such as Horizons, is a mistake.

Only if the game is about meeting other players. The intent with ED, though, was for meeting other players, specially outside the more populated central systems, to be a rare and memorable event.

A single player mode, which requires an online connection, and co-influences the world of multiplayer gamers instead of influence its own world, is a mistake.

In a game that is about player conflict, about players directly opposing each other, yeah. But ED was never meant to be that.

To create a sandbox without the typical freedoms of a sandbox, is a mistake.

ED is not meant to be a sandbox in the "mold the world around you" sense. Nor in the "force other players to acknowledge the changes you've made" sense.

Designing a game that neither is sandbox nore has interesting story and campaign, but Grinding is an essential part of the game, this is a mistake.

I kinda agree with you on the grinding issue. Apart from that, it's merely an open-ended, open world game, which is a perfectly valid kind of game.

You seem to have expected ED to be EVE with joysticks. That is not an universal preference, though. Much of what you want of the game are things many players, myself included, explicitly want to not be included. I certainly don't want other players to be given the tools to hinder me or make the game less enjoyable for me.

 

[Benedictus]

You seem to have expected ED to be EVE with joysticks.

aaah...

That is not an universal preference, though.

sigh...

Much of what you want of the game are things many players, myself included, explicitly want to not be included. I certainly don't want other players to be given the tools to hinder me or make the game less enjoyable for me.

I dont see all of this as a disability, feeatures and tools with the aim to hinder other players. You lose so much potential. 400 billion star systems and zero influence. Why Wings update and Powerplay, when it was clear from the the beginning on that they will not exploit the potential?

I have not played elite. When I first heard of Elite Dangerous and its 400 billion stars I dreamed about a sandbox game like Eve Online, only a thousand times greater.

Why separate Players from each other with game modes and instances when they can spread to so many star systems? I dreamed of many convoys which are exploring to find new habitable planets and resources. I dreamed of new British (German, Spanish, French, etc.) colonies in space systems, players can colonize with stations, farms and production bases. convoys which traveled thousands light years between the colonies, between the old and new world, back and forth in order to trade, escorted by military fighters and warships or police ships.

Each region had other resources, each race / faction / guild / clan had other laws, other crafting skills, other goods. That means, the trade was significantly more important than what we now mean by trading.

By being able to build production facilities, a clan was dependent on the raw materials of other clans, and vice versa. Without raw materials the production did not run. without running production, there are no goods, no goods no functional economy, no weapons, no armor, no ships, no fuel for ships. I dreamed about the Game "The Settlers" in Space. Multiplayer. Better than Eve.

So as Clan you can conclude alliances or declare war. But every war also meant a risk, having to protect its occupied systems, stations and trade routes before counterattacks. Very expensive. very inconvenient That means to declare war was not always an advantage. Maybe the other faction is tooo far away to attack, huh? Maybe there are factions, players, who settled down in Systems we havent find yet? Huh?

And when I dreamed about this I had never any NPC in mind. So much space in this world to live, but ED hat to seperate the players with game modes and instances.

so much possibilities to shape an economy run by players. but ED doesnt give us crafting, banks, financial transactions, the possibility to build stations, Farms, Mines, Ship Yards and production sites, residential areas, managing tools and so on... because ED doesnt want to be a Sandbox?

Only a grinding game?! Are you serious?

 

[Jockey79]

I have not played elite. When I first heard of Elite Dangerous and its 400 billion stars I dreamed about a sandbox game like Eve Online, only a thousand times greater.

Well, there is YOUR first MISTAKE.
Wrong game to compare.

Why separate Players from each other with game modes and instances when they can spread to so many star systems?

The networking model will only ever let you have 32 players (including yourself) in 1 instance - IF YOUR CONNECTIONS ARE GOOD ENOUGH.
I've seen a video, where with tweaking and anchor wings a group got 24 people (for a short time) in to one instance.

You are never going to see EVE numbers in 1 instance, as it is not supported in a live fire game - unlike EVE that can slow time down for its point and click game.

MISTAKE number 2

I dreamed of many convoys which are exploring to find new habitable planets and resources. I dreamed of new British (German, Spanish, French, etc.) colonies in space systems, players can colonize with stations, farms and production bases. convoys which traveled thousands light years between the colonies, between the old and new world, back and forth in order to trade, escorted by military fighters and warships or police ships.

See MISTAKE 2 answer.
(This classes as MISTAKE 3)

so much possibilities to shape an economy run by players.

Seen how well that played out in EVE.... they can keep it.
Also, player influenced economy is in place - as put in the information I linked you.

MISTAKE 4

but ED doesnt give us crafting, banks, financial transactions, the possibility to build stations, Farms, Mines, Ship Yards and production sites, residential areas, managing tools and so on...

Crafting is coming (see Dev blogs)
We have built stations already (see GalNet) - but they are not player owned and never will be (see Dev blogs)
No idea on the other stuff - but as player owned structures are a no, Id say most of that list it.

Not sure if this classes as 5 or not.... hmmm

because ED doesnt want to be a Sandbox?

Not your type of EVE rip off it doesn't.
I didn't pay for an EVE rip off, and neither did the KS backers.

6?

We on 6 now?

Your list of MISTAKES is much larger than FDs list.....

Oh and by the way, "Elite" is free on the Frontier Store;

PC: https://www.frontierstore.net/games/elite1984.html
MAC: https://www.frontierstore.net/games/elite-1984-for-mac.html

Give it a go, you may learn something

 

[Benedictus]

Crafting is coming (see Dev blogs)

We have Wings Update, Powerplay and Horizons too... but all of this has been implemented like I dont expected for. So how will ED interpret the feature "Crafting"?

Give it a go, you may learn something

I dont want to learn how to lose so much potential. I am sorry. But maybe u are right and I have to accept it. Wrong game.

This Game developer, who is able to make my dreams come true shall get more than 100 million USD from the players.