Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Part the Second [Now With Added Platforms].

[pmalus]

I've been reading this thread since getting the game, as the Open/Solo/Private Group thing was kind of confusing for me as a new player. I've never seen it done in any game before, and I wanted to understand the issues and how all three systems worked.

So, I've given my thoughts time to coalesce, and I've tried to share them below. It's kind of long, but I hope you guys and gals at least give it a read.

---

Neither of the different modes bother me individually - in fact, I think Diablo 3 (correct me if I'm wrong) had a model where you could grind in solo mode and then take the character you'd created along with all your loot, etc, online to play with other people. This is sort of like if you'd played E in solo for a while to get insurance money, cool ships, whatever, before bringing it into Open. OR, you could just keep playing in solo all the time if that's your thing. No harm, no foul. I don't see anything wrong with this.

Really, the ONLY thing that doesn't make sense to me is why players in Solo and Private Groups have the same influence on the background sim that players in Open do, especially with 1.3 (which seems to aim to make these systems even more transparent and part of the game) only a week or two away.

Stay with me for a sec, and I'll try to explain where I'm coming from.

So, I know of at least a few player groups who are trying to support and influence minor factions in certain systems in order to have them expand. For some people, that is a really cool thing you can do in the game. Perhaps the COOLEST of things.

One of the most satisfying things in the world is seeing the fruits of your labor, especially when you've been working towards it for a long time, and E offers this sort of long-term satisfaction with the faction influence system (even pre 1.3). It is an amazing feeling to see a minor faction you and your friends have supported move into another system. For some, perhaps many players, it is one of the only reasons to keep coming back to the game even after you've become space rich. It is, to my knowledge, one of the deepest systems that Frontier has implemented into their game, and despite bugs every now and then, is very well done.

So let's say we have a player group (player group A) who opposes the expansion of whatever minor faction 'player group B' supports. Cool, that's exciting, right? So 'player group A' has tons of different ways in which to undermine 'player group B's' efforts. That's great! That's how we give pilots an actual purpose aside from "grind credits, get new ships."

The problem arises when 'player group A' can log into solo or private, and make trade runs, hunt for bounties, etc, worth tens of millions of credits in order to undermine 'player group B.' 'Player group B,' even if they happen to somehow figure out that this is happening to them (pretty unlikely), has absolutely no direct counterplay. They can't even see who it is.

By the time player group B figures out something is happening, influence may have already dropped 20% for player group B's desired faction. By that point, as far as I understand, it's pretty much a lost cause.

We should at least give everyone the same chance, right?

I'm not saying we need to abolish private group or solo play, I'm just saying there needs to be some changes with how much the non-Open modes influence the background sim with regards to factions expanding/being undermined/whatever. Perhaps have each mode offer their own instance of the background sim? As far as I understand, the Beta right now is a completely separate instance than what's Live, so we at least know it's possible.

tl;dr - I don't mind people playing solo, or in private groups, but the effect this has on the background sim really almost discourages people from taking part in it. What point is there to get a bunch of people together to help a minor faction expand throughout space when another group can invisibly oppose them with absolutely no consequence?

 

[fademist]

I think it should all scale, the impact, the money all of it because it is harder. But that's me and my group of friends. I'm sure there are many just like us that have put on the walking boots and losing these players seems like such a waste because the game is good if it were not for this flawed mechanic and such a vocal bunch of solo players wanting it to exist.

please bring us the stats of which mode is more popular.....but im sure if was open we would have some changes that favor it more

 

[Dave1235]

<snip>

The root of the evil is all three modes tied into a SINGLE universe. To jiggy-rig the problem those with greater risk should make a bigger impact.

Did you buy the game knowing this "evil" existed? if yes why did you buy it? if no why didn't you research it first rather than moaning about it after you bought it?

Either way its not my fault its yours, take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming others for your deficiency's.

Some people didn't research the game before buying it, that's a problem with the buyer not the game!

 

[fademist]

I've been reading this thread since getting the game, as the Open/Solo/Private Group thing was kind of confusing for me as a new player. I've never seen it done in any game before, and I wanted to understand the issues and how all three systems worked.

So, I've given my thoughts time to coalesce, and I've tried to share them below. It's kind of long, but I hope you guys and gals at least give it a read.

---

Neither of the different modes bother me individually - in fact, I think Diablo 3 (correct me if I'm wrong) had a model where you could grind in solo mode and then take the character you'd created along with all your loot, etc, online to play with other people. This is sort of like if you'd played E in solo for a while to get insurance money, cool ships, whatever, before bringing it into Open. OR, you could just keep playing in solo all the time if that's your thing. No harm, no foul. I don't see anything wrong with this.

Really, the ONLY thing that doesn't make sense to me is why players in Solo and Private Groups have the same influence on the background sim that players in Open do, especially with 1.3 (which seems to aim to make these systems even more transparent and part of the game) only a week or two away.

Stay with me for a sec, and I'll try to explain where I'm coming from.

So, I know of at least a few player groups who are trying to support and influence minor factions in certain systems in order to have them expand. For some people, that is a really cool thing you can do in the game. Perhaps the COOLEST of things.

One of the most satisfying things in the world is seeing the fruits of your labor, especially when you've been working towards it for a long time, and E offers this sort of long-term satisfaction with the faction influence system (even pre 1.3). It is an amazing feeling to see a minor faction you and your friends have supported move into another system. For some, perhaps many players, it is one of the only reasons to keep coming back to the game even after you've become space rich. It is, to my knowledge, one of the deepest systems that Frontier has implemented into their game, and despite bugs every now and then, is very well done.

So let's say we have a player group (player group A) who opposes the expansion of whatever minor faction 'player group B' supports. Cool, that's exciting, right? So 'player group A' has tons of different ways in which to undermine 'player group B's' efforts. That's great! That's how we give pilots an actual purpose aside from "grind credits, get new ships."

The problem arises when 'player group A' can log into solo or private, and make trade runs, hunt for bounties, etc, worth tens of millions of credits in order to undermine 'player group B.' 'Player group B,' even if they happen to somehow figure out that this is happening to them (pretty unlikely), has absolutely no direct counterplay. They can't even see who it is.

By the time player group B figures out something is happening, influence may have already dropped 20% for player group B's desired faction. By that point, as far as I understand, it's pretty much a lost cause.

We should at least give everyone the same chance, right?

I'm not saying we need to abolish private group or solo play, I'm just saying there needs to be some changes with how much the non-Open modes influence the background sim with regards to factions expanding/being undermined/whatever. Perhaps have each mode offer their own instance of the background sim? As far as I understand, the Beta right now is a completely separate instance than what's Live, so we at least know it's possible.

tl;dr - I don't mind people playing solo, or in private groups, but the effect this has on the background sim really almost discourages people from taking part in it. What point is there to get a bunch of people together to help a minor faction expand throughout space when another group can invisibly oppose them with absolutely no consequence?

u have read the pp beta discussions? if no i would suggest to do it will reallize that pp will bring more problems if stay us it nows and prolly only the ppl that dont have family/kids/work will get involved

 

[Hund]

we like a challenge.

If we decided to go to open we will accomplish less with more challenge

So, er, do you like a challenge or don't you?

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So let's say we have a player group (player group A) who opposes the expansion of whatever minor faction 'player group B' supports. Cool, that's exciting, right? So 'player group A' has tons of different ways in which to undermine 'player group B's' efforts. That's great! That's how we give pilots an actual purpose aside from "grind credits, get new ships."

The problem arises when 'player group A' can log into solo or private, and make trade runs, hunt for bounties, etc, worth tens of millions of credits in order to undermine 'player group B.' 'Player group B,' even if they happen to somehow figure out that this is happening to them (pretty unlikely), has absolutely no direct counterplay. They can't even see who it is.

... except player group B can do exactly the same thing.

 

[TheSpaceTexan]

Wow its like some of you posted just to post without reading his actual valid constructive criticism.

 

[pmalus]

... except player group B can do exactly the same thing.

Right, they totally can, but only if there's knowledge of player group A's efforts. Like, if I'm understanding you correctly, it might not be a direct counterplay since they're all in private/solo (like B blowing up A's trade ships), but player group B could theoretically also run trade missions, bounty hunt, etc, to bump their supported minor faction back up. Is that what you mean?

The only problem remaining there is that as the game is currently, it's absolutely impossible to be confident with the knowledge that another group is trying to undermine your own efforts unless you see it happening in Open.

 

[fademist]

Right, they totally can, but only if there's knowledge of player group A's efforts. Like, if I'm understanding you correctly, it might not be a direct counterplay since they're all in private/solo (like B blowing up A's trade ships), but player group B could theoretically also run trade missions, bounty hunt, etc, to bump their supported minor faction back up. Is that what you mean?

The only problem remaining there is that as the game is currently, it's absolutely impossible to be confident with the knowledge that another group is trying to undermine your own efforts unless you see it happening in Open.

can happen and already has ...

 

[pmalus]

can happen and already has ...

Now I'll be the first to admit I might not understand the entirety of the influence system as it currently exists, but do you have any examples of this?

 

[Dave1235]

<snip>

I'm not saying we need to abolish private group or solo play, I'm just saying there needs to be some changes with how much the non-Open modes influence the background sim with regards to factions expanding/being undermined/whatever. Perhaps have each mode offer their own instance of the background sim? As far as I understand, the Beta right now is a completely separate instance than what's Live, so we at least know it's possible.

tl;dr - I don't mind people playing solo, or in private groups, but the effect this has on the background sim really almost discourages people from taking part in it. What point is there to get a bunch of people together to help a minor faction expand throughout space when another group can invisibly oppose them with absolutely no consequence?

May I suggest you read the first post in this thread, possibly follow the link to the first post (of 10k posts) in the old thread too, it may help you understand what the devs have planned for ED.

FD have been consistent in regard to us (and xbox players) all affecting the same background, solo, groups & open, many people have said they are wrong to do this, many said its the best way to do it. Either way there is only one background sim & FD are "making the game they want to play", so I guess at the end of the day we take it, or leave it.

The people that researched it before buying it that took the time to decide that they would buy the game are pretty happy, the ones that didn't are not.

Beta server is another server that FD use for testing for a small period of time, not another server & background they will support for ever.

 

[TheSpaceTexan]

Not all the decisions developers make are always right. Let me tell you about other games that tried Multiplayer aspects and failed horribly. What they think might believe works on paper, doesn't work on the field in the long run.

 

[fademist]

Now I'll be the first to admit I might not understand the entirety of the influence system as it currently exists, but do you have any examples of this?

they have changed some things so can have system oriented cg's (u need to be to that system to see them) and have the world cgs along side with that ...so ppl can effect systems at open without solo/group ppl learn about it

 

[TheSpaceTexan]

they have changed some things so can have system oriented cg's (u need to be to that system to see them) and have the world cgs along side with that ...so ppl can effect systems at open without solo/group ppl learn about it

This literally does not relate to anything and is not how it works. Local Community Goals, which is what I think you're talking about. Can be seen in Open, Private or Solo. The same thing with Community Goals.

 

[fademist]

Not all the decisions developers make are always right. Let me tell you about other games that tried Multiplayer aspects and failed horribly. What they think might believe works on paper, doesn't work on the field in the long run.

Thats basic ..ofc all devs can make mistakes lol

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This literally does not relate to anything and is not how it works.

can u tell me why?

 

[TheSpaceTexan]

Thats basic ..ofc all devs can make mistakes lol

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can u tell me why?

Look above your post.

I want the NPCs to be so hard and mimic players so well, that if you combat log to an NPC, you should feel pretty damn shameful.

 

[pmalus]

May I suggest you read the first post in this thread, possibly follow the link to the first post (of 10k posts) in the old thread too, it may help you understand what the devs have planned for ED.

FD have been consistent in regard to us (and xbox players) all affecting the same background, solo, groups & open, many people have said they are wrong to do this, many said its the best way to do it. Either way there is only one background sim & FD are "making the game we want to play", so I guess at the end of the day we take it, or leave it.

The people that researched it before buying it that took the time to decide that they would buy the game are pretty happy, the ones that didn't are not.

Beta server is another server that FD use for testing for a small period of time, not another server & background they will support for ever.

Thanks for actually taking the time to reply.

I am in no way saying I'm unhappy with the game - I'm still very happy with what I paid for.

As far as I understand, though, there's still a lot of development time going into fleshing out the experience, adding new features, and balancing old ones, so why should we treat this like a finished product?

Isn't this forum here specifically so that we can discuss these issues and think up a solution that makes everybody happy? I totally understand if you're happy with the game as it stands currently, but a lot of players think it could be improved without taking away what you like about the game. As you've seen, it's pretty difficult to find a solution that doesn't take away from the solo experience while also giving Open players what they want, and saying "you should've researched before you bought the game" doesn't help to contribute to the discussion here.

I would honestly completely agree with the sentiment of "should've researched before you bought it" if, from what I've seen, the developers hadn't committed themselves to listening to community feedback and trying to improve the game from there.

Also, I'm aware that Beta isn't forever, I was just using it as an example to say that based on what we've seen, it -is- possible for Frontier to run different instances of the background sim.

 

[Faded Glory]

[snip]

I'm snipping, because people can read what you said by scrolling up, and don't want to make a huge post.

All the stuff you are saying regarding the background sim being exciting and compelling and the best reason for playing the game may or may not be true, but it's nice to see enthusiasm.

Where you get to your discussion regarding the two groups, it's probably not so cut and dried. So, group 'A', the Open group, want to support their power by expanding. But group 'B', the solo group want the opposite. It's unfair that group 'A' can't see group 'B'. Depends entirely on what they have to do to help their power expand, and unless it is purely a PvP action, then actually neither group has an advantage, because neither group can see the other.

Most of these points have been brought up ad infinitum, but let's just say your example was a trade blockade. On the surface, if group 'A' is trying to stop group 'B' from bringing goods into a station, then they have a disadvantage, because they can't see them. Problem is, they also can't see everyone in Open due to instancing. If it's a combat oriented goal, then agreed, it's a bit more difficult, as apparently it's easier to kill NPC's in solo than in open due to spawn rates, but the fix would be for FD to increase the spawn rate in open to compensate. If they don't do that, they may not perceive it as being a problem.

And finally, if these things were restricted to Open only, what if only 100 CMDRs turned up? Is it right or reasonable that 100 people can influence a system power when many thousands might actually be playing it? Remember, your group 'A' and 'B' scenario is only half the story. Group 'C' are in Open actively engaging group 'A', and group 'D' are happily chugging away in solo in support of group 'A'. No one (other than FD) can say this is not so.

 

[fademist]

Look above your post.

so u think cgs dont affect the influence at all i take...

 

[TheSpaceTexan]

At this point, NPCs trying to help players create blockades and enemy deterrents sounds pretty damn sound if they really want to run this game down that aisle. Also potentially into the ground.

so u think cgs dont affect the influence at all i take...

Start making sense you. I have no idea what you're talking about at all at this point.

I'm snipping, because people can read what you said by scrolling up, and don't want to make a huge post.

All the stuff you are saying regarding the background sim being exciting and compelling and the best reason for playing the game may or may not be true, but it's nice to see enthusiasm.

Where you get to your discussion regarding the two groups, it's probably not so cut and dried. So, group 'A', the Open group, want to support their power by expanding. But group 'B', the solo group want the opposite. It's unfair that group 'A' can't see group 'B'. Depends entirely on what they have to do to help their power expand, and unless it is purely a PvP action, then actually neither group has an advantage, because neither group can see the other.

Most of these points have been brought up ad infinitum, but let's just say your example was a trade blockade. On the surface, if group 'A' is trying to stop group 'B' from bringing goods into a station, then they have a disadvantage, because they can't see them. Problem is, they also can't see everyone in Open due to instancing. If it's a combat oriented goal, then agreed, it's a bit more difficult, as apparently it's easier to kill NPC's in solo than in open due to spawn rates, but the fix would be for FD to increase the spawn rate in open to compensate. If they don't do that, they may not perceive it as being a problem.

And finally, if these things were restricted to Open only, what if only 100 CMDRs turned up? Is it right or reasonable that 100 people can influence a system power when many thousands might actually be playing it? Remember, your group 'A' and 'B' scenario is only half the story. Group 'C' are in Open actively engaging group 'A', and group 'D' are happily chugging away in solo in support of group 'A'. No one (other than FD) can say this is not so.

That is honestly the nature of the beast and hoping you can coordinate with other players to prevent that or at least hold out while a strategy is formulated. Also Afraid to say, that there won't ever be 100 players showing up because of how tiny the instance-island-bubble-boogaloo is locked to 32 players. Also, not all of those 'thousands' of players know or care about the system. I promise you, only a handful do. Take CODE and AEDC for example. AEDC is currently trying to reclaim Leesti from them, but when they tried to fight them in Open, they were struck down pretty hard. Even with their numbers, so they retreated to Private and Solo to grind out missions to effectively kick them out of the system and i mean GRIND. they've done like over 14,000+ missions to get them out, but since players are trading and doing missions for the controlling faction, AEDC still can't kick them out.

CODE is at a HUGE disadvantage, because one of their best ways to defend themselves from huge player numbers, was to stay close and play coordinately to prevent their enemies from doing missions and also protecting their members doing missions from harm. THAT is what the Background Simulator should be about. Having numbers doesn't mean success, planning and strategies mean success.

So what should be a nice and big and open crazy and Dangerous galaxy, isn't possible. Simply put, private groups and solo shouldn't have that kind of advantage, its just simply unfair to retreat from that sort of danger and then have no consequences.

 

[Hund]

Right, they totally can, but only if there's knowledge of player group A's efforts.

Well no, they can do so irrespective of the knowledge of player group A's efforts.

Like, if I'm understanding you correctly, it might not be a direct counterplay since they're all in private/solo (like B blowing up A's trade ships), but player group B could theoretically also run trade missions, bounty hunt, etc, to bump their supported minor faction back up. Is that what you mean?

Yes, that is what I mean.

The only problem remaining there is that as the game is currently, it's absolutely impossible to be confident with the knowledge that another group is trying to undermine your own efforts unless you see it happening in Open.

Not seeing how this ruins the whole game. You should simply always assume it is happening.