Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

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The game should reward based on risk, so you could use a multiplier of sort (2x/whatever) if you trade in the open. Something that would be a sufficient reward to go out there and risk it.

Overall the game is OK from pirate/smuggler end, there should be no further disincentive to them (if anything there need to be even more incentive to do piracy), but on the other hand there need to be enough of an incentive for traders to be willing to risk the interdictions by other players and even more importantly to fight back.

Also while fighting back in a Python is viable, doing the same in a T9 is just not an option, so splitting systems into "safe" ones where you get NPC escorts in open with current levels of profit (plus maybe a bonus of some sort), vs Anarchy ones, with even higher margins possible, but where you are on your own, should be some sort of long term goal.

In principle there should be risk tiering, something along those lines

Solo safe = lowest right and lowest profits, takes the longest to progress via trading (trading nerfed compared to standard solo at the moment)
Solo risky = current level of profits, anarchy systems in solo mode, real risk from NPC's
Open safe = higher level of profits, safe routes in the open, in stable systems with NPC escorts/or some other mechanic of protection, pays better than current setup
Open risky = highest levels of profits/highest risk multipliers, anarchy trading in the open, highest chance of profits, but with highest risk, ie you are on your own.

Most of the traders would drift towards highest profits, while "safer" and slower type of game would still be available to those who do not mind the slow grind.

Lots of different threads in this debate.......
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But in short, the only way I can see to make it "Fair"....is if the Devs can somehow re-create in Solo, what is happening in Open.......that would mean MORE danger around Rares hubs........MORE danger when trading in war zones......etc. The NPCs will have to up their game, but I can't see anyone complaining, as they keep saying they want the same game and rewards......well, that's the way to do it. Make each mode equally hard.........
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If some don't like this, and want an "easy mode" even around Rares Hubs and War Zones.........then I suggest they move on to a quieter part of the galaxy.
I have said this before (and in other threads) and will say it again, but all those points, while valid, are for reasons involving trading. Do you think the risk that involves firing on a non wanted ship should also involve more "risk" or consequence? Because shooting a clean ship (regardless of reason) and paying a minimal fine to "cleanse" your record the next time you dock doesn't seem like much of a risk either,,,,,,,,,

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Or not so much "fair" either.
 
Indeed it does. I expect that the community goal debate will result in a compromise that upsets everyone fairly even-handedly.

If it was easy to implement then we wouldn't need someone as capable as Sandro.... ;)

Well there's an obvious solution that other games have used to great success. Shame it's not being considered.
 
I guess you'd have to ask them that. But they certainly seem to feel they would and logically if you want to make a contribution to a goal and your efforts take X times longer to achieve the same result than you had to before that would be seen as a negative - a hindrance to their progress relative to the timeframe of the event that wasn't there before.

It's all hypothetical at the moment and will continue that way unless FD release some cold hard stats - which I very much doubt they will.

But the very tools of buffing and nerfing are able to balance this very discrepancy you describe.
Every nerf is in effect a buff on other objects and every buff is effectively a nerf. they are relative to each other.
But it seems that some consider the idea of a nerf to be unrelentingly negative.
 
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In the Vox Populi thread, I suggested adding a game mechanic restriction that prevents a player ALREADY in OPEN from switching modes until they have travelled 50 LY away from the last interaction with another CMDR. IE: interdiction, fired at or fired upon.
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This does not NERF any mode. People in Solo can switch at any time. People in groups and Open have to be aware of the requirement. That would "fix" using switching between modes to eliminate the risks of Open, which is why players should be in Open in the first place.
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Unfortunately, that doesn't fix the imbalance between the modes for players that value affecting the background simulation, or community goals. There is AN ALREADY EXISTING imbalance, which mean that the modes ARE NOT EQUAL.
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If all the people who are closing their eyes, covering their ears and chanting "no no no no" would stop taking a crap on people that want change, they could offer suggestions that could work for everyone instead of making threads like these full of vitriol and not worth reading for developers. The simple fact that the moderators had to take a heavy handed approach and manually move posts into a closed thread to get an honest debate going shows how pointless this thread is if your goal is to convince a developer.
 
That would not be an even-handed compromise that would upset everyone equally, now would it....

Ok, what if: the mission you sign up for is locked to a game mode. In other words, if I sign up in Solo, then I can only contribute to the goal in Solo. If I sign up in Open, I can only contribute to the goal in Open. And, you can't accept the same mission on each. This only impacts handing in of bonds etc., and does not hamstring any other activities in the game.

This would require players to make a temporary choice as to how to contribute, and would prevent some of the jumping back and forth that people complain about.
 
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But it seems that some consider the idea of a nerf to be unrelentingly negative.

Okay then, you want to nerf how much CG bonds are worth in solo - fine, -10% enough?
And as nerfs are not so bad and the nerf bat is out, in the interest of balance - solo players get to nerf how much CG bonds are woth in open... say -10% to keep it in line?

There we go, all good - everyone got nerfed. :D
 
But the very tools of buffing and nerfing are able to balance this very discrepancy you describe.
Every nerf is in effect a buff on other objects and every buff is effectively a nerf. they are relative to each other.
But it seems that some consider the idea of a nerf to be unrelentingly negative.

I got nothing.


Other than to say I definitely don't have a negative view of whatever it is you may or may not be trying to say - though I should add at this point that if I do at some point re-visit your post and find myself in disagreement with it then I shall feel obliged to register my objection at the earliest opportunity in the strongest possible terms forum rules notwithstanding!
 
In the Vox Populi thread, I suggested adding a game mechanic restriction that prevents a player ALREADY in OPEN from switching modes until they have travelled 50 LY away from the last interaction with another CMDR. IE: interdiction, fired at or fired upon.
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This does not NERF any mode. People in Solo can switch at any time. People in groups and Open have to be aware of the requirement. That would "fix" using switching between modes to eliminate the risks of Open, which is why players should be in Open in the first place.
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Unfortunately, that doesn't fix the imbalance between the modes for players that value affecting the background simulation, or community goals. There is AN ALREADY EXISTING imbalance, which mean that the modes ARE NOT EQUAL.
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If all the people who are closing their eyes, covering their ears and chanting "no no no no" would stop taking a crap on people that want change, they could offer suggestions that could work for everyone instead of making threads like these full of vitriol and not worth reading for developers. The simple fact that the moderators had to take a heavy handed approach and manually move posts into a closed thread to get an honest debate going shows how pointless this thread is if your goal is to convince a developer.

erm.... wait, what?

How dare you bring a good idea in to this thread :p

(I actually do like that idea myself, may have an impact on combat loggers as well, if they have to log back in to open, there is a chance it may put them back in front of the person who was shooting at them)

Ok, what if: the mission you sign up for is locked to a game mode. In other words, if I sign up in Solo, then I can only contribute to the goal in Solo. If I sign up in Open, I can only contribute to the goal in Open. And, you can't accept the same mission on each. This only impacts handing in of bonds etc., and does not hamstring any other activities in the game.

This would require players to make a temporary choice as to how to contribute, and would prevent some of the jumping back and forth that people complain about.

This is also a good idea.....

Just like the buses, you always get 2 at once :p
 

Javert

Volunteer Moderator
My suggestion in the other Vox Populi thread is that the community goals rewards should be awarded separately for players who participated in the goal solely in open, with a separate chart for anyone who played in solo (or group) play.

The rewards would still be the same (i.e. top prize would be the same, but both a solo and open commander would win it).

This does not take away any aspect of current game play, everyone carries on as normal, and Open players can't then say that they were robbed of their just rewards by solo players who had an easier time of it.

One thing I didn't mention in the other thread is that to make this work, the reward tiers for community goal would have to be relative (i.e. top n commanders contributing by play mode). Absolute ones like "ship more than x tonnes of cargo into station y", could still be open to criticism.

Another thing is that once the game goes multi platform, we could then have arguments along the lines of "there are lots more XBox players than PC players (or vice versa) so PC players have an advantage in community goals.".
 
My suggestion in the other Vox Populi thread is that the community goals rewards should be awarded separately for players who participated in the goal solely in open, with a separate chart for anyone who played in solo (or group) play.

The rewards would still be the same (i.e. top prize would be the same, but both a solo and open commander would win it).

This does not take away any aspect of current game play, everyone carries on as normal, and Open players can't then say that they were robbed of their just rewards by solo players who had an easier time of it.

One thing I didn't mention in the other thread is that to make this work, the reward tiers for community goal would have to be relative (i.e. top n commanders contributing by play mode). Absolute ones like "ship more than x tonnes of cargo into station y", could still be open to criticism.

Another thing is that once the game goes multi platform, we could then have arguments along the lines of "there are lots more XBox players than PC players (or vice versa) so PC players have an advantage in community goals.".

So we'd need;

Top X Box Solo,
Top X Box Open,
Top PC Solo,
Top PC Open,

Private groups?? (I'd say mix with solo imo)

I think that is fair, but possibly a pain in the [whatever] for FD to sort and maintain, but it is fair to all.

Lets hope we don't get Wii players ;) lol
 
My suggestion in the other Vox Populi thread is that the community goals rewards should be awarded separately for players who participated in the goal solely in open, with a separate chart for anyone who played in solo (or group) play.

The rewards would still be the same (i.e. top prize would be the same, but both a solo and open commander would win it).

This does not take away any aspect of current game play, everyone carries on as normal, and Open players can't then say that they were robbed of their just rewards by solo players who had an easier time of it.

One thing I didn't mention in the other thread is that to make this work, the reward tiers for community goal would have to be relative (i.e. top n commanders contributing by play mode). Absolute ones like "ship more than x tonnes of cargo into station y", could still be open to criticism.

Another thing is that once the game goes multi platform, we could then have arguments along the lines of "there are lots more XBox players than PC players (or vice versa) so PC players have an advantage in community goals.".

With the way that Community Goals have worked in the past, this would be a fine compromise. However, with the introduction of the opposed Community Goals which decided the ownership of a system, this does not fix anything.
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The issue that Walt Kerman and the other player groups have, is if they want to "win the war", they HAVE TO GO INTO SOLO to maximize the contributions towards community goals, since the community goals decide the fate of the system. It's not even a question of profit, it's about participating in the background simulation. Which has been the goal of the Son's of Conn (CSG) and the Dukes of Mikuun since the game was launched (over 3 months!).
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So Solo only players are chanting their mantra "We should not be forced to play in OPEN", meanwhile Open players are being forced to play in SOLO. Refusing to change "something" is just hypocrisy.
 
Why! Im so glad you asked! :D:D:D

If that is done by actually measuring the skill or effectiveness of the player in some way — so a player that is easier to beat than a NPC is actually worth less than a NPC — and the same adjustment is applied to different difficulty NPCs, I'm all for it. Equal rules for the different modes, and all that. Though, to be complete, this would also require spawned NPCs to recognize players in distress from their faction and rush to the rescue, otherwise it would only make the situation where players just choose the already more populous side more enticing and, thus, more common.

If it's just a blanket "players are worth more than NPCs", then no.

One potential idea used in other games is to keep a score based on how many kills a player had since he was last destroyed or changed ships, and scale up the reward for killing him in a combat zone according to that. If combined with a system to tell players when someone with a high reward joins the opposing side it could make life very interesting indeed for the best pilots. For NPCs it could be measured across all spawned NPCs of the same difficulty rather than doing it per NPC.




I do not think emotional, and poorly considered reactions should be a reason for FD to have any tools removed. But instead, you feel that this is something that hurts you some how. What are you measuring it against?
I have not said there should be any nerfs or buffs, but I fail to understand why the very concept instills such fear and anger in some.

A nerf that affected some, but not all, of the modes would be something directly attacking the idea that all players are equally important in the game, the very core of the "play your way" mantra, pushing a certain group above the others.

And, as such, for those that aren't in the group that was chosen as the "true players", it stops making sense to play. Why should I give any money, or any of my play time, to a game that clearly doesn't want me as a player or consumer? I don't play a game to become content to anti-social players that can only get their kicks from ruining the game for someone else, or to play second fiddle for those the devs deem "more worthy".




In principle there should be risk tiering, something along those lines

Solo safe = lowest right and lowest profits, takes the longest to progress via trading (trading nerfed compared to standard solo at the moment)
Solo risky = current level of profits, anarchy systems in solo mode, real risk from NPC's
Open safe = higher level of profits, safe routes in the open, in stable systems with NPC escorts/or some other mechanic of protection, pays better than current setup
Open risky = highest levels of profits/highest risk multipliers, anarchy trading in the open, highest chance of profits, but with highest risk, ie you are on your own.

Most of the traders would drift towards highest profits, while "safer" and slower type of game would still be available to those who do not mind the slow grind.

Two things:

- With the peer to peer architecture, this would make it really worthwhile to learn how to manipulate one's connection to be alone while nominally playing in open. It's easy to do and you can even find automated scripts if you know where to look at.

- Most humans are actually risk-adverse. If you take a look at psychological research, a risky proposition needs to have roughly twice the average payoff (after compensating for potential loses) to get about the same number of people choosing it as will choose the safer option; Ultima Online, for example, had all revenue from farming in the PvP zones doubled and still almost no one ventured there. So, unless the rewards for the risky choices are far higher than for the safe ones — and by far higher, I mean that twice the reward isn't even close to being enough — I would expect most players to still be choosing the safer option.




Solo and private groups are good and should absolutely exist. I find it ironic that even though allowing mode switching really compromises open play (and in game mechanics, CGs, bounty hunting etc) people present the argument that it's okay and not liking that is selfish.

I applauded DC Universe Online when they allowed players to jump between the PvP and PvE servers as often as they wanted, with no costs or charges. I see WoW allowing players to temporarily switch servers and thus play in a server with a different rule set as one of that game's best changes, even if it's mostly an unintended side-effect from cross-realm zones. I see any attempt by a group of players to blockade a system, to exclude others from part of the game's content, as detrimental to the game, something that drastically lessens how much enjoyment a game can provide.

In short, I see mode switching as perhaps the best feature ED has. And I see ED without mode switching as a far worse game, perhaps not even worth playing. You will never convince me that mode switching is bad because, for me, it's not; you will never convince me that locking players into specific modes, and thus preventing players with different preferences to play together when they want, is a good thing, because I always saw the segregation caused by different modes, factions, and servers, as the biggest flaw ever introduced in the MMO model.

Well there's an obvious solution that other games have used to great success. Shame it's not being considered.

If you are talking about segregated servers, those are often seen nowadays as retrograde, an artifact of older times when server technology wasn't nearly as advanced as today. Many MMOs nowadays have abolished the idea of separate servers, or, when they still keep those — like WoW does — often allow players to still play together by temporarily moving characters across servers.
 
With the way that Community Goals have worked in the past, this would be a fine compromise. However, with the introduction of the opposed Community Goals which decided the ownership of a system, this does not fix anything.
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The issue that Walt Kerman and the other player groups have, is if they want to "win the war", they HAVE TO GO INTO SOLO to maximize the contributions towards community goals, since the community goals decide the fate of the system. It's not even a question of profit, it's about participating in the background simulation. Which has been the goal of the Son's of Conn (CSG) and the Dukes of Mikuun since the game was launched (over 3 months!).
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So Solo only players are chanting their mantra "We should not be forced to play in OPEN", meanwhile Open players are being forced to play in SOLO. Refusing to change "something" is just hypocrisy.

so what's wrong about my proposal to make seperate goals for open and solo?
noone is forced to any mode changes and yet everyone is just competing with "his kind".
open players get their chance at the "top 5%", solo players can still contribute to the event.

Edit: on a side effect, we'll get numbers of how many people are actually choosing the different modes. this could be used to "balance" the goals of further events.
 
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so what's wrong about my proposal to make seperate goals for open and solo?
noone is forced to any mode changes and yet everyone is just competing with "his kind".
open players get their chance at the "top 5%", solo players can still contribute to the event.

Ya know, I actually like this idea the best.

Mode switching at will in Elite needs to stay. Down the road it will be the only thing that sets ED apart from the others. Star Citizen is following in lock step the same approach as CCP. Allowing Griefing, but discouraging it with in game mechanics, well we all know how well that worked out for the PVE folks in EvE. I believe It is virtually impossible to control Griefing with in game mechanics. Even though heavily vested in SC, I've pretty much abandoned any notion of playing there game, but that's another story. Elite gives us players a pretty effective way of controlling it, if we choose to.

So Elite will be the stand alone in this regard. I know it, they know it, and they will stand by it. I think it's brilliant.

However I think a little balancing might be in order.
 
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so what's wrong about my proposal to make seperate goals for open and solo?
noone is forced to any mode changes and yet everyone is just competing with "his kind".
open players get their chance at the "top 5%", solo players can still contribute to the event.

Edit: on a side effect, we'll get numbers of how many people are actually choosing the different modes. this could be used to "balance" the goals of further events.

How much effect on the conclusion of the goal does each mode have though? If solo succeeds but open fails what is the outcome?
 
How much effect on the conclusion of the goal does each mode have though? If solo succeeds but open fails what is the outcome?

It would have to be similar goals but not exactly the same. Like fighting for different stations/outposts/other POI.
Or, what i wouldn't like as much, one mode getting the trading part, the other the fighting. Rotating with the events.
 
So Solo only players are chanting their mantra "We should not be forced to play in OPEN", meanwhile Open players are being forced to play in SOLO. Refusing to change "something" is just hypocrisy.

noone force anyone to change modes when u will understand that? is their choice ...and if u want to change something is open ppl minds about the illusion they have about the other modes...
 

Javert

Volunteer Moderator
With the way that Community Goals have worked in the past, this would be a fine compromise. However, with the introduction of the opposed Community Goals which decided the ownership of a system, this does not fix anything.
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The issue that Walt Kerman and the other player groups have, is if they want to "win the war", they HAVE TO GO INTO SOLO to maximize the contributions towards community goals, since the community goals decide the fate of the system. It's not even a question of profit, it's about participating in the background simulation. Which has been the goal of the Son's of Conn (CSG) and the Dukes of Mikuun since the game was launched (over 3 months!).
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So Solo only players are chanting their mantra "We should not be forced to play in OPEN", meanwhile Open players are being forced to play in SOLO. Refusing to change "something" is just hypocrisy.

Good point. I suppose if that's your main concern, the above solution doesn't directly solve that.

However, doesn't that issue exist regardless whether the system change is by a community goal or through the general background simulation as well? It's always been the case that anyone trying to influence the political state of a system might be able to do it more easily in solo.

If the system change is being directly triggered by the final results of the community goal, then you could still use a similar method, but any large scale change of system allegiance, the result could possibly be influenced by some factor according to solo / open in a non obvious way. Frankly, do we even know that isn't the case today? I think FD have refused to reveal the inner workings of the background simulation, so do we even know for sure whether playing in solo vs open has no impact on the general simulation of faction influence and so on?

In other words individual rewards would follow my proposal above, but any large scale macro change would be balanced somehow.

The point here is that under my idea the minute to minute game play would be no different for anybody, only the calculation of the result after the fact.

My other thought here is that the current system is still fair to both sides either way - anyone trying to influence the results either way has the choice to play in solo or not.

I guess the crux of this is that some players want to run a blockade to prevent players supporting the other side from delivering their cargo, and don't want solo players to slip under the blockade? I'm afraid I don't have a magic answer to that, except to say that PVP combat was I think always envisaged to be an optional part of the game. You can still run a blockade, but you will only meet other commanders who are willing to participate in that part of the role play.

I'm concerned about the slippery slope of applying differences to what happens in solo vs group, but I do admit that I find it hard to justify why a community goal that is basically framed as a war between warring factions should not reward running a blockade in open play in some way.

Edit: Finally, there is also the very good point I've seen made by others that given the architecture of the game, even when you are in open play, you could still mess about with your network router to minimize the chance of being instanced with players, so I feel taht any balancing in this area would have to be somehow based on what you really did in open play, rather than just the fact that you are in that mode. This possibly shoots myself in the foot for my original argument, but the point still stands that the result of the community goal split by mode is a pride thing, and does not affect anybody's ability to get profits or whatever. Even the change of ownership of a system doesn't really impact anyone's ability to progress in the game.
 
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noone force anyone to change modes when u will understand that? is their choice ...and if u want to change something is open ppl minds about the illusion they have about the other modes...

They do understand it, but they think behaving like children in the back of the car going "are we there yet?, are we there yet?, are we there yet?, are we there yet?" etc.. validate their all ready poor and debunked arguments they make.

Over 400 pages of telling people, open players are not better or more valued than solo / group and do not deserve more than other players - they know the score all ready.
 
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