Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[fergal]

Just spend some time at Diso.
I jumped in, I see 1 player in a Hauler, 1 in an Asp. I flew around in SC. Player in a cobra turned up, he didn't have an interdictor.
3 mins later a player in a type 6 turned up.
6 mins in a player in a python turned up, no interdictor on it.
1 player in a vulture turned up a bit later, no interdictor.
I jumped to the closest system after 8 mins. The Vulture was still in SC when I leftt.

I jumped back to Diso, I see one NPC hauler. Thats it. I stayed for 3 mins and jumped back top the closest system.

Jumped back to Diso again, 3 players in SC now, an Asp, type 6 and a different anaconda form earlier. More players arrive, A type 9, a type 7, a second type 9. More player traders arrive, no interdicting players, although I probably look like one flying around looking at everyone

I jump out and back in. I see 3 or 4 players in sc, they all drop out quickly, 4 contacts lost it says in the top UI. One of them was an Elite player in a FDL. I head towards the interdiction wake, a player in a type 6 turns up, no other players on my screen. The wake closes and 3 players turn up. A type 7, an anaconda, and a player in an orca. No sign on the FDL or anyone with an interdictor.

I leave and go back into Diso for the 5th time. This time I see the same FDL, there are 2 of them in the wing, both Elite, both in FDLS. They have interdictors. They drop out, looks like back at the station, probably for more rail gun ammo. THere is one player in a type 7.

This is how the matchmaking works. I didn't go into solo or a private group, I was in open the whole time, and each time I traveled to Diso I got a completely different set of players. Call that a different instance if you like. Sure, some of the players might have gotten to the station and dropped out of SC, but all of them couldn't have.

If I wanted to destroy or pirate (or blockade ) Diso I couldn't. I couldn't even see all the players in open, let alone everyone in solo and a private group.

The two players in FDLs (and nice work being Elite and in the best combat ships doing 2v1 against type 7s) might have thought they have cleared out the open players. Their instance was very dead. At the same time it was a trading festival in open with type 6,7 and 9s.

 

[Lestenio]

You're still perfectly free to switch modes. But since the modes aren't equal what you do in one stays in that mode. Essentially your stats / saves will be isolated.

Open mode requires this to effectively leverage many inter-player game roles. It requires it so much so that I dont think it's if FD goes this route, but when.

In the unlikely event that happen, FD will lose me as a player and I personally will start the refund thread.

 

[SteveLaw]

If I wanted to destroy or pirate (or blockade ) Diso I couldn't. I couldn't even see all the players in open, let alone everyone in solo and a private group.

Thank you for testing and demonstrating this so well. Apparently I can't +Rep you again yet. It's the first part of the conclusion that is the most relevant to me. Even if the modes were separated/locked you still can't see all the other players. The game is not designed for that sort of gameplay in more ways than just play mode.

 

[Jockey79]

This is how the matchmaking works. I didn't go into solo or a private group, I was in open the whole time, and each time I traveled to Diso I got a completely different set of players. Call that a different instance if you like. Sure, some of the players might have gotten to the station and dropped out of SC, but all of them couldn't have.

If I wanted to destroy or pirate (or blockade ) Diso I couldn't. I couldn't even see all the players in open, let alone everyone in solo and a private group.

Thank you, we've been saying this for over 500 pages and been ignored every time.
Personally, all I have to do is run Spotify and bingo, lots of the player base - gone. And I love my music while playing

 

[Cody]

I expect that the discrepancy arises from the fact that spambots, sockpuppets and duplicates are perma-banned and will not be shown as active users.

You don't delete their accounts? How strange!

 

[Jockey79]

You don't delete their accounts? How strange!

Well, if you think about it - it kinda makes sense, they cannot recreate the account - they'd just get an error saying account already exists.

 

[SteveLaw]

Well, if you think about it - it kinda makes sense, they cannot recreate the account - they'd just get an error saying account already exists.

And are probably unable to use the same email address to make a new one. It just makes things more of a pain for them.

 

[Cody]

Aye well, that's one way of doing it. I'd ban their IP and email, then delete the account - 40k+ inactive, perma-banned users seems daft.

 

[Jockey79]

Aye well, that's one way of doing it. I'd ban their IP and email, then delete the account - 40k+ inactive, perma-banned users seems daft.

IPs can be change or spoofed in minutes, email accounts are free via Google, Microsoft, Yahoo and IPS's.
Heck, I can change country I'm posting from every post (including IP for that country) using just 1 browser extension.

I have no computer qualifications and no formal training by anyone for any aspect of using a PC - and I can bypass security measures on any forums, with ease.
There is no perfect answer and no real way to stop someone overly zealous from posting, the method FD are going with requires the least amount time from the Mods and Devs, just ban the account and let it fester - takes up an email and username - making it harder for anyone to make a new account.
Also reinforces, people need to post in accordance with the rules - as you may struggle to get another chosen account here due to spammers and muppets taking up the decent names.

 

[Cody]

Yeah, I know all that (I'm a forum Admin elsewhere) - and FD obviously have their way of doing things.
That misleading front-page total bothers me a little though - but there you go!

 

[Brett C]

Well, might as well get this bundle of quoted posts out of the way...

No need to apologise when it come to showing evidence. The mobius number is growing quicker than the forum members, the only two numbers we really know and can prove.

Quick math update (Mobius / forum members) https://forums.frontier.co.uk/memberlist.php

8,100 / 44,570 = 18.17%

So nearly 20% of the forum members are also members of mobius, the percentage keeps growing so either FD are telling people about mobius when they join or ...... maybe they are looking for it themselves, that's the problem with sheep, they don't listen.

You're literally comparing a fansite/gaming groups in-game stats to a web based discussion forum which does not do account replication to the Elite: Dangerous services, this is also including member-search limitations imposed. This already will skew any sort of statistic; in which is to be blunt... is a very bad methodology to gauge participation and interactions. You can't even apply the 90:9:1 rule, more aptly, the 70:20:10 rule. As such, doesn't even fit the stat now, just due to social mediums to said numbers, given by said image and the interpolated maths I've seen posted.

While I cannot delve much into stats or their raw numbers, I can say that the forums layout since mid-April, is 30% new visitors, and 70% returning users. Making note that this is over user/visitor sessions in the 7 figure range. This right here already tells the story of the forums registration statistics. Which begins to flow to the social interactions rule (90:9:1 aka 70:20:10 rule) for account creations. Using the 70 20 10 rule, 70% are visitors/one-time visitors/lurkers, 20% make an account, 10% procure posts/debates/content on the forums.

Now looking at the numbers... To be honest, the 70 20 10 rule fits nicely, almost scarily nicely. Where the 20% make an account on the forums, compared to the game customer stats. Granted, it's still ever so slightly lesser than the raw/flat 20% value. It's eerily close.

The main forum page shows Members: 90,352 - which is correct?

members.php list has a global minimum posts cut off... If you don't have X (i think it's at least 2 posts) posts, the username will not be displayed.
forum.php/index.php footer stats is a count via selecting(counting) members user SQL DB table.
If you mouse over the "welcome to our newest member, USERNAME" bit, the newest user ID number is much higher than the actual members count.

You don't delete their accounts? How strange!

Accounts can be deleted (by request to Frontier legal for a full account termination), however in general, we choose to not do that for the following reason: vbulletin sucks at logging deleted users. Liability is a very real thing when it comes to keeping records. Missing records = bad news if something needs to be audited/examined or investigated. When / if we delete a user, most logs tied to said user(s) go poof in an instant. Much of the time, if a user is deleted, it's from a same-group spammer. Additionally, we merge user accounts on request if a registration error occurred.

And are probably unable to use the same email address to make a new one. It just makes things more of a pain for them.

Correct.

 

[Jockey79]

Well, might as well get this bundle of quoted posts out of the way...



You're literally comparing a fansite/gaming groups in-game stats to a web based discussion forum which does not do account replication to the Elite: Dangerous services, this is also including member-search limitations imposed. This already will skew any sort of statistic; in which is to be blunt... is a very bad methodology to gauge participation and interactions. You can't even apply the 90:9:1 rule, more aptly, the 70:20:10 rule. As such, doesn't even fit the stat now, just due to social mediums to said numbers, given by said image and the interpolated maths I've seen posted.

While I cannot delve much into stats or their raw numbers, I can say that the forums layout since mid-April, is 30% new visitors, and 70% returning users. Making note that this is over user/visitor sessions in the 7 figure range. This right here already tells the story of the forums registration statistics. Which begins to flow to the social interactions rule (90:9:1 aka 70:20:10 rule) for account creations. Using the 70 20 10 rule, 70% are visitors/one-time visitors/lurkers, 20% make an account, 10% procure posts/debates/content on the forums.

Now looking at the numbers... To be honest, the 70 20 10 rule fits nicely, almost scarily nicely. Where the 20% make an account on the forums, compared to the game customer stats. Granted, it's still ever so slightly lesser than the raw/flat 20% value. It's eerily close.




members.php list has a global minimum posts cut off... If you don't have X (i think it's at least 2 posts) posts, the username will not be displayed.
forum.php/index.php footer stats is a count via selecting(counting) members user SQL DB table.
If you mouse over the "welcome to our newest member, USERNAME" bit, the newest user ID number is much higher than the actual members count.




Accounts can be deleted (by request to Frontier legal for a full account termination), however in general, we choose to not do that for the following reason: vbulletin sucks at logging deleted users. Liability is a very real thing when it comes to keeping records. Missing records = bad news if something needs to be audited/examined or investigated. When / if we delete a user, most logs tied to said user(s) go poof in an instant. Much of the time, if a user is deleted, it's from a same-group spammer. Additionally, we merge user accounts on request if a registration error occurred.


Correct.

Thank you for that information Brett.

and may I just say...

OMG, you're following this mega thread !?!?!?
Are you insane !?!?!

 

[Brett C]

Thank you for that information Brett.

and may I just say...

OMG, you're following this mega thread !?!?!?
Are you insane !?!?!

I get an email the moment someone makes a reply to this thread... sort of hard to not miss it.

 

[SteveLaw]

I get an email the moment someone makes a reply to this thread... sort of hard to not miss it.

Are you in therapy yet?

 

[Ian Phillips]

Are you in therapy yet?

They only let him out to harrass the other mods

 

[atak2]

Well, might as well get this bundle of quoted posts out of the way...



You're literally comparing a fansite/gaming groups in-game stats to a web based discussion forum which does not do account replication to the Elite: Dangerous services, this is also including member-search limitations imposed. This already will skew any sort of statistic; in which is to be blunt... is a very bad methodology to gauge participation and interactions. You can't even apply the 90:9:1 rule, more aptly, the 70:20:10 rule. As such, doesn't even fit the stat now, just due to social mediums to said numbers, given by said image and the interpolated maths I've seen posted.

While I cannot delve much into stats or their raw numbers, I can say that the forums layout since mid-April, is 30% new visitors, and 70% returning users. Making note that this is over user/visitor sessions in the 7 figure range. This right here already tells the story of the forums registration statistics. Which begins to flow to the social interactions rule (90:9:1 aka 70:20:10 rule) for account creations. Using the 70 20 10 rule, 70% are visitors/one-time visitors/lurkers, 20% make an account, 10% procure posts/debates/content on the forums.

Now looking at the numbers... To be honest, the 70 20 10 rule fits nicely, almost scarily nicely. Where the 20% make an account on the forums, compared to the game customer stats. Granted, it's still ever so slightly lesser than the raw/flat 20% value. It's eerily close.




members.php list has a global minimum posts cut off... If you don't have X (i think it's at least 2 posts) posts, the username will not be displayed.
forum.php/index.php footer stats is a count via selecting(counting) members user SQL DB table.
If you mouse over the "welcome to our newest member, USERNAME" bit, the newest user ID number is much higher than the actual members count.




Accounts can be deleted (by request to Frontier legal for a full account termination), however in general, we choose to not do that for the following reason: vbulletin sucks at logging deleted users. Liability is a very real thing when it comes to keeping records. Missing records = bad news if something needs to be audited/examined or investigated. When / if we delete a user, most logs tied to said user(s) go poof in an instant. Much of the time, if a user is deleted, it's from a same-group spammer. Additionally, we merge user accounts on request if a registration error occurred.


Correct.

That is awesome. Accurate results rather than the silly stuff we have been seeing!

 

[Dave1235]

You're literally comparing a fansite/gaming groups in-game stats to a web based discussion forum which does not do account replication to the Elite: Dangerous services, this is also including member-search limitations imposed. This already will skew any sort of statistic; in which is to be blunt... is a very bad methodology to gauge participation and interactions. You can't even apply the 90:9:1 rule, more aptly, the 70:20:10 rule. As such, doesn't even fit the stat now, just due to social mediums to said numbers, given by said image and the interpolated maths I've seen posted.

While I cannot delve much into stats or their raw numbers, I can say that the forums layout since mid-April, is 30% new visitors, and 70% returning users. Making note that this is over user/visitor sessions in the 7 figure range. This right here already tells the story of the forums registration statistics. Which begins to flow to the social interactions rule (90:9:1 aka 70:20:10 rule) for account creations. Using the 70 20 10 rule, 70% are visitors/one-time visitors/lurkers, 20% make an account, 10% procure posts/debates/content on the forums.

Now looking at the numbers... To be honest, the 70 20 10 rule fits nicely, almost scarily nicely. Where the 20% make an account on the forums, compared to the game customer stats. Granted, it's still ever so slightly lesser than the raw/flat 20% value. It's eerily close.

Thanks for the information Brett.

I used this ratio, as they are the only two numbers that I was aware of that are available, I realise its not a great measure, I have mentioned before the number would be skewed by people finding out on Reddit or people who are forum members that rarely use the forum and are not aware of the Mobius group, quite possibly by other factors too.

My logic was, using something like sales would be even further off, although people could find out about Mobius from places other than the forum, I would have thought the majority of people would find about Mobius from this forum.

Again thanks for the info, its always nice to see actual numbers.

- - - Updated - - -

They only let him out to harrass the other mods

On a Sunday too, what did you do to upset him

 

[W0OCQCK]

Wow, they closed those two pretty quickly.LOL

 

[Xananan]

Wow, they closed those two pretty quickly.LOL

Yeah no kidding

Well now that I've been dragged here more of less for the first time (despite knowing about this thread, never checked it out. Pretty damn daunting) I might as well add my two cents from the other thread and you get to throw them on the pile since all of this has most likely been stated a million times over:

Until the criminal system gets reworked soon I don't really much the point subjecting myself to psychopathic murderers in FDL's interdicting, and just shooting. No response to hails, no willingness to add to the experience. For lack of a better term: the DayZ crowd.

And sometimes you just wanna play euro truck simulator in space and spend an hour or two listening to podcasts, trading.


I used to go open to pvp or even pirate (more for the RP experience since piracy sadly is kind of awful pay all things considered, selling a few dozen tons of stolen goods at best isnt really what I call a payday) in anarchy systems, but lately people are more likely to just take the inconsequential bounty for blasting T6's in systems with something that's supposed to be a 'police force' instead of actually fighting something that shoots back. Disgraceful.

When it comes to community goals I pretty much stopped trying to do them in open, seems like a lot of people are more interested in hunting players in those than to actually progress. Not condemning that, fully viable, just not what I'm personally after.
I prefer to have the only combat option that actually has a chance of paying decent money not to be halted by pvp.

 

[Armour]

Given the ongoing sandboxers clamour for Guilds, player-owned content, and all that jazz, this might not be such a popular idea, but here goes: I think Solo mode needs to have more (optional) structure. It should have more going for it than just being Open without other players as it is now.

There are narrative gameplay elements that just wouldn't work in a multiplayer context, but would enrich the Solo experience. I'm not talking a full-on story-driven "chosen one" deal, cut scenes and the like - more like some more intricate and extended chaining and branching in the mission generation. That could provide a sense of progression to players who want it, story arcs on a greater scale than individual missions, but (probably) smaller than whatever Powerplay will bring to the table.

Those that want to "blaze their own trail" would be totally free to do so. The game would not need to channel you down a preset storyline path - it could offer narrative content that is procedurally generated, but gives you the choice to follow or abandon it as you like.

Persistent NPCs, for example, fit perfectly into that mid-level gameplay mould, but they would seem (on the surface) difficult to reconcile with instancing and P2P from an implementation perspective. They would be simple to include, however, in Solo mode, where no such problems present themselves.

This would allow both modes to have their strengths and weaknesses. Open players would be generating their own storyline through interactions with each other, with a top level narrative provided by Powerplay's Risk-In-Space goings on, if they choose to participate. Loners would have the choice of having their mid-level narrative provided by interaction with the persistent NPCs and with mission content that relates to those characters, whilst still being able to partake in the greater scale of the astropolitical game provided by Powerplay if they like. Or, again, they could do their own thing.

Any thoughts?