The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[kage-sors]

I have no hate towards SC and I've just started playing ED, I've been follow SC for awhile simply cause I find it fascinating it was in fact my following of SC that lead me to ED. Now I'm a console player and before anyone jumps on that whole Console peasant bull crap your opinion doesn't matter as I usually get, I make 145k a year and I proffer consoles simply cause I grew up on them.

What I have is a question for both the ED & SC fans a like and an unbiased opinion.

I really don't care if SC came to console's or not but every time I ask this question I get a bunch insults instead about how console peasant can't understand and I should go away when its simply curiosity. Now my question is, what make SC so advanced that current gen console's like the Xbox one and PS4 can't handle it? The graphics don't look a whole lot different to my eye's.

From all my viewing of things SC its like people are forking over all this cash and getting fiddly Diddly in return except more marketing and more requests for money.

Also read somewhere that out of the 80 or 90 mil raised there's only 8 mil left.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

I have no hate towards SC and I've just started playing ED, I've been follow SC for awhile simply cause I find it fascinating it was in fact my following of SC that lead me to ED. Now I'm a console player and before anyone jumps on that whole Console peasant bull crap your opinion doesn't matter as I usually get, I make 145k a year and I proffer consoles simply cause I grew up on them.

What I have is a question for both the ED & SC fans a like and an unbiased opinion.

I really don't care if SC came to console's or not but every time I ask this question I get a bunch insults instead about how console peasant can't understand and I should go away when its simply curiosity. Now my question is, what make SC so advanced that current gen console's like the Xbox one and PS4 can't handle it? The graphics don't look a whole lot different to my eye's.

From all my viewing of things SC its like people are forking over all this cash and getting fiddly Diddly in return except more marketing and more requests for money.

Also read somewhere that out of the 80 or 90 mil raised there's only 8 mil left.

So far I haven't seen anything front and centre regarding console ports. ED were silent on it and then all of a sudden "whoa, XBox1" happened and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth from the purists...
You won't get an answer on the money thing here. Either it is true or false, nobody knows for sure but either side will vigorously defend their truth.
One potential issue with SC for consoles is "which bit?" The single player campaign thingy would seem a no-brainer; the Persistent Universe (PU), might be a bit more work.

 

[Stormprooter]

I have no hate towards SC and I've just started playing ED, I've been follow SC for awhile simply cause I find it fascinating it was in fact my following of SC that lead me to ED. Now I'm a console player and before anyone jumps on that whole Console peasant bull crap your opinion doesn't matter as I usually get, I make 145k a year and I proffer consoles simply cause I grew up on them.

What I have is a question for both the ED & SC fans a like and an unbiased opinion.

I really don't care if SC came to console's or not but every time I ask this question I get a bunch insults instead about how console peasant can't understand and I should go away when its simply curiosity. Now my question is, what make SC so advanced that current gen console's like the Xbox one and PS4 can't handle it? The graphics don't look a whole lot different to my eye's.

From all my viewing of things SC its like people are forking over all this cash and getting fiddly Diddly in return except more marketing and more requests for money.

Also read somewhere that out of the 80 or 90 mil raised there's only 8 mil left.

I think the whole culture of Star Citizen is to try to push the absolute limits of technology in terms of high fidelity and cinematic experience - this is what Chris Roberts has said from the very start. He has stated he left games development in the early 2000s as he felt constrained by the technology as to what his vision of game experience should be, and now that PCs are powerful enough to do film quality stuff, he decided to come back and do the game he always wanted to make. (I'm sure there are other reasons too - but this is just what he has said - I think we all know he left Freelancer in bad circumstances)

Consoles are more limited than the PC platform - simply because they stay stuck on more or less the same hardware for 5 years or so - this is a double-edged sword, on the one hand, game developers know they have a single stable platform on which to develop and test, and on the other, developers have to wait 5 years to get hardware updates. This tends to suit large publishers as it makes it easier to plan investment in game development, and reduces the issues with hardware compatibility as it's just one(or two) closed platform per manufacturer.
PCs are different, multiple architectures, constantly changing almost from month to month - but you do get the latest hardware more often, and it can be configured and pushed further than console hardware - downside is hardware compaitibility (depsite DirectX and OpenGL), so it's more tircky to get things working on various grades of machine from low-spec right up to high-end.

So CR is going for High-end PC, this is the vision.

Personally, after the PC version is up and running, I see no reason why CIG should not consider XBOX, CR has already had talks with Sony about PS4, but could not agree with them about who controls the released game.

 

[Esvandiary]

Now my question is, what make SC so advanced that current gen console's like the Xbox one and PS4 can't handle it? The graphics don't look a whole lot different to my eye's.

So, a few points:
Firstly, those graphics aren't final (at least, I certainly hope not in some cases!) and the requirements for those improvements may well go up a bit.
Secondly, it's not just about the graphics, it's about the computing power behind them (whether that's rendering or physics modelling or whatever else). The thing with consoles is that devs will squeeze every drop of performance out of them in order to hit their performance targets (e.g. 1080p30) for a specific game; but, there does come a point when every drop is squeezed and that's the performance you're going to get. At that point you can't put any more into your game, and if you do then you'll have to drop fidelity in order to accommodate it.
Bluntly, for a game of this scale, with the amount of moving parts fitting together to (hopefully) make a game, hitting that sort of static target is nigh-on impossible. And if you miss it, your game just doesn't run at an acceptable frame rate and you go back to the drawing board to work out what features to cut/quality to drop in order to get it to run well. Not to mention, it may well be the case that all the processing going on in SC just won't fit on even a current-gen console at all - they did have to rework CryEngine significantly to work with 64-bit floats for accuracy, I imagine those aren't exactly fast on consoles... In contrast, with PC it's always a sliding scale, you can always throw more hardware at it. People with low-end machines may be unhappy, but at the end of the day a lot of people can still play your game well.

From all my viewing of things SC its like people are forking over all this cash and getting fiddly Diddly in return except more marketing and more requests for money.

Those are common complaints (and a source of much wailing and gnashing of teeth in this thread); personally I do still have a lot of concerns about it, but I'm willing to see what happens. I'm a low-level backer, so if they pull it off I get a sweet game for not much money, if not I get to sit back with some popcorn.
Does it feel slightly "cultish"? Personally I think yes. Do I feel like I have some Moral Duty to convince people not to pour more money into the game? No. It's their money, it's their choice - and it's not like people's concerns haven't been all too public in recent weeks.

Also read somewhere that out of the 80 or 90 mil raised there's only 8 mil left.

It's been claimed, but as far as I know is entirely unconfirmed (and some have said it's unlikely that any normal employee would have had access to that information).

 

[Marc Alexander]

What I have is a question for both the ED & SC fans a like and an unbiased opinion.

That sir/madam, is an oxymoron.

 

[SuperG]

I think it's obvious CIG is in no rush to finish/polish/fix the game.. but I'm pretty sure they will.
They've had plenty of time and kittenloads of advice on how to fix the flight model.
I'm going to lose all hope in humanity of they actually manage to not get it right.

You know that the module AC FM is trow away code.
Also what ever balance they have there for fighter arena thing to.
Everthing depending on merge of the modules.
What ever is done after that, could be for release version.

Now imagine how disruptive the multicrew ships with turret be and the big frigates into the mix. Also the rock paper siscor game mechanics as a bomber need someting big to attack.
And each module has there own place holder FM or one specialised for there gameplay and that are conflicts to resolve when merging.

My geuss this merging has priority as everything depends on it.
After that the game get more shape. And a merge is big task due to the conflicts and it show no progress as more architectural thing. How ever what was hidden shift to the open production. AC becomes merged to SC Alfa.
Maybe that squadron 42 stay separate.

 

[Jon Strife]

Since Star Citizen is free to try right now, I had the opportunity to give it a try... The only thing I liked about it (comparing to Elite) is the "maneuverability" of your spaceship, which I think could be improved, realistically, and just a bit, in ED, so we don't have to turn around each others in circle all the time in fights.

 

[kage-sors]

So, a few points:
Firstly, those graphics aren't final (at least, I certainly hope not in some cases!) and the requirements for those improvements may well go up a bit.
Secondly, it's not just about the graphics, it's about the computing power behind them (whether that's rendering or physics modelling or whatever else). The thing with consoles is that devs will squeeze every drop of performance out of them in order to hit their performance targets (e.g. 1080p30) for a specific game; but, there does come a point when every drop is squeezed and that's the performance you're going to get. At that point you can't put any more into your game, and if you do then you'll have to drop fidelity in order to accommodate it.
Bluntly, for a game of this scale, with the amount of moving parts fitting together to (hopefully) make a game, hitting that sort of static target is nigh-on impossible. And if you miss it, your game just doesn't run at an acceptable frame rate and you go back to the drawing board to work out what features to cut/quality to drop in order to get it to run well. Not to mention, it may well be the case that all the processing going on in SC just won't fit on even a current-gen console at all - they did have to rework CryEngine significantly to work with 64-bit floats for accuracy, I imagine those aren't exactly fast on consoles... In contrast, with PC it's always a sliding scale, you can always throw more hardware at it. People with low-end machines may be unhappy, but at the end of the day a lot of people can still play your game well.


Those are common complaints (and a source of much wailing and gnashing of teeth in this thread); personally I do still have a lot of concerns about it, but I'm willing to see what happens. I'm a low-level backer, so if they pull it off I get a sweet game for not much money, if not I get to sit back with some popcorn.
Does it feel slightly "cultish"? Personally I think yes. Do I feel like I have some Moral Duty to convince people not to pour more money into the game? No. It's their money, it's their choice - and it's not like people's concerns haven't been all too public in recent weeks.


It's been claimed, but as far as I know is entirely unconfirmed (and some have said it's unlikely that any normal employee would have had access to that information).

Thank you its nice to finally have those answered.

 

[Severian]

Thank you its nice to finally have those answered.

If you ever feel the urge to disrupt an SC fans dissonance when the launch into the 64bit fidelity universe only possible on a PC waffle, just point at ED on PC with a universe multitudes of orders larger than SC. Then point at an XBone with ED. Then Point at a 16bit Amiga with a universe the same size and dimensional accuracy.

 

[jinto777]

If you ever feel the urge to disrupt an SC fans dissonance when the launch into the 64bit fidelity universe only possible on a PC waffle, just point at ED on PC with a universe multitudes of orders larger than SC. Then point at an XBone with ED. Then Point at a 16bit Amiga with a universe the same size and dimensional accuracy.

Well... ED is a pretty simple game in comparisson with SC. You have geometrical figures as ships and... well, nothing more. A great universe to explore, is true, but yeah, so much empty space out there

 

[Severian]

Well... ED is a pretty simple game in comparisson with SC. You have geometrical figures as ships and... well, nothing more. A great universe to explore, is true, but yeah, so much empty space out there

You should try playing the game. Then your statement will become objectively untrue.

 

[PhanttoM]

Well... ED is a pretty simple game in comparisson with SC. You have geometrical figures as ships and... well, nothing more. A great universe to explore, is true, but yeah, so much empty space out there

SC is pretty simplistic in its current form. (Point n' click Freelancer style combat) There is far more to do in terms of ship system management in Elite at the moment.
The shape and aesthetics of a ship is irrelevant and has nothing to do with complexity in terms of gameplay.

SC has plans to become more complex, but we're still a long way from that.

 

[Voivod]

Well... ED is a pretty simple game in comparisson with SC. You have geometrical figures as ships and... well, nothing more.

Do you not know what you're talking about or are you trolling on purpose?

 

[Esvandiary]

If you ever feel the urge to disrupt an SC fans dissonance when the launch into the 64bit fidelity universe only possible on a PC waffle, just point at ED on PC with a universe multitudes of orders larger than SC. Then point at an XBone with ED. Then Point at a 16bit Amiga with a universe the same size and dimensional accuracy.

Not sure if that's pointed at me (I mean, I'd hardly consider myself an SC "fan"...), but the 64-bit float thing isn't complete rubbish; ED would run into the same issue if it wasn't instanced as it is. Note that's not "64-bit makes everything faster!!!1!11", in fact it makes it quite a bit slower, it just means a single game space can be massively larger without losing a lot of accuracy in the position/velocity of things. (Again, note that in ED a "single game space" is either SCing around a system or sitting in normal space. Big, but not exactly entire-galaxy big.)
Whether or not SC will actually make use of that large game space is another question...

Also I don't think it's impossible on consoles, just potentially a much harder ask to fit it all into the requisite performance envelope. In some cases CIG may have dug their own grave on that with ambitious design decisions, but consoles don't seem to be on their radar, so it probably doesn't bother them.

As for your comparison to the 16-bit Amiga, now you're just being silly.

 

[Severian]

Not sure if that's pointed at me (I mean, I'd hardly consider myself an SC "fan"...), but the 64-bit float thing isn't complete rubbish; ED would run into the same issue if it wasn't instanced as it is. Note that's not "64-bit makes everything faster!!!1!11", in fact it makes it quite a bit slower, it just means a single game space can be massively larger without losing a lot of accuracy in the position/velocity of things. (Again, note that in ED a "single game space" is either SCing around a system or sitting in normal space. Big, but not exactly entire-galaxy big.)
Whether or not SC will actually make use of that large game space is another question...

Also I don't think it's impossible on consoles, just potentially a much harder ask to fit it all into the requisite performance envelope. In some cases CIG may have dug their own grave on that with ambitious design decisions, but consoles don't seem to be on their radar, so it probably doesn't bother them.

As for your comparison to the 16-bit Amiga, now you're just being silly.

None of this is true.

 

[xyphic]

Well... ED is a pretty simple game in comparisson with SC. You have geometrical figures as ships and... well, nothing more. A great universe to explore, is true, but yeah, so much empty space out there

With the best will in the world, I find it difficult to see where the game is in SC as it stands. The design is good, and the framework is starting to come together but I would urge caution. The depth of gameplay that is planned for the PU is a massive undertaking, and if even a fraction of what's planned makes it into the first release, they you can colour me surprised. ED has an excellent set of design documentation, and if you compare ED-what-was-planned with SC-what-is-planned you'll see that they're not all that different in scope. But as we've found out, in the real world you can't have everything and so a lot of the depth that we could have had has been lost. *Some* good stuff will be implemented in the coming years, but they're the sort of timescales you're looking at, and the sort of timescales that you should be prepared for with SC.

This is why they're concentrating on getting Squadron 42 out. FPS games are a known quantity, and there's a large pool of talent to draw from. They should be able to knock that one out of the park with no issues, and it'll buy them time and income. But I'd expect the PU to take a lot longer -- and there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't compare ED-now with SC-what-is-planned; compare ED-at-SC-PU-release with SC-at-SC-PU-release, and that's when you'll be able to do a true comparison.

 

[dayrth]

Well... ED is a pretty simple game in comparisson with SC. You have geometrical figures as ships and... well, nothing more. A great universe to explore, is true, but yeah, so much empty space out there

Yes 'geometrical figures as ships'

Spoiler

 

[jinto777]

SC is pretty simplistic in its current form. (Point n' click Freelancer style combat) There is far more to do in terms of ship system management in Elite at the moment.
The shape and aesthetics of a ship is irrelevant and has nothing to do with complexity in terms of gameplay.

SC has plans to become more complex, but we're still a long way from that.

Yes, for now it's simpler than ED, because most of the mecanics is not fleshed out yet. But in regard of the aesthetics, the SC ships follow the "rule of cool" but yet, all ships are modular (or they will be) and can retrofitted for differents situations. This is not only status changes, but their appearances changes too, in most of the cases anyway


So, ED being a "complete" game what do we have now, what we can do?


- Can shoot in rocks and store their pieces (also know as mining)
- Can shoot other moving geometrical figures. Ok, you may need to send more power to Avioncs, Shield or Weapons to do so. You can even shoot them in a certain way and place to make them drop all their pieces of rocks in the space!
- Can move "valuable bits of information" also know as commodities form a gianta bal of steel to anothe giant ball of steel far, far away. Don't worry, the commodities just sprout in the space, you can't really affect your favorite giant ball of steel this way
- Can point your pricey sensors in fireballs and giants rocks before others people. This called "exploring"

 

[TrixX]

With the best will in the world, I find it difficult to see where the game is in SC as it stands. The design is good, and the framework is starting to come together but I would urge caution. The depth of gameplay that is planned for the PU is a massive undertaking, and if even a fraction of what's planned makes it into the first release, they you can colour me surprised. ED has an excellent set of design documentation, and if you compare ED-what-was-planned with SC-what-is-planned you'll see that they're not all that different in scope. But as we've found out, in the real world you can't have everything and so a lot of the depth that we could have had has been lost. *Some* good stuff will be implemented in the coming years, but they're the sort of timescales you're looking at, and the sort of timescales that you should be prepared for with SC.

The scope of the two games has some overlap but the overall scope of the two are quite different. Elite was aimed to be a Space Exploration, Trading and Combat game first and foremost with the Galaxy being real size as one of it's major selling points. When undertaking something of that size then yes you have to cut it down a bit to cope, so First Person and planetary exploration had to wait to meet the rather short timeframe they had for release which they did an admirable job of keeping it. SC however was planned to be a First Person Universe from the original pitch (don't believe me, by all means check the original video and the Kickstarter Campaign goals). That would entail a First Person setup from the get go. SC was never pitched as a whole galaxy either it's set in a much smaller ~200ish known systems which is incredibly small by comparison, as a result it has far more detail within those areas compared to the billions of Stars in ED. Then there's the design teams Frontier went with a slightly more traditional setup with deadlines that didn't budge much and IMO a slightly odd set of choices regarding price models. CIG went for a more Blizzard approach of it's done when it's done, which in turn has attracted the ire of the people who want everything now or are demanding "the original vision" which when you look back at it, is the current one.

This is why they're concentrating on getting Squadron 42 out. FPS games are a known quantity, and there's a large pool of talent to draw from. They should be able to knock that one out of the park with no issues, and it'll buy them time and income. But I'd expect the PU to take a lot longer -- and there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't compare ED-now with SC-what-is-planned; compare ED-at-SC-PU-release with SC-at-SC-PU-release, and that's when you'll be able to do a true comparison.

SQ42 is a Space Sim, not an FPS. It has FPS elements but it's definitely a Space Sim. The PU will take longer, I'm looking forward to testing it when it finally does release, but I'm not holding them to ransom over the timeframe as they are putting far more effort into evolving games past cookie cutter crap which will hopefully raise the bar for the big publishers. Fun thing is in the meantime I can still enjoy ED and mess around in many other games too.

 

[rootsrat]

Yes, for now it's simpler than ED, because most of the mecanics is not fleshed out yet. But in regard of the aesthetics, the SC ships follow the "rule of cool" but yet, all ships are modular (or they will be) and can retrofitted for differents situations. This is not only status changes, but their appearances changes too, in most of the cases anyway


So, ED being a "complete" game what do we have now, what we can do?


- Can shoot in rocks and store their pieces (also know as mining)
- Can shoot other moving geometrical figures. Ok, you may need to send more power to Avioncs, Shield or Weapons to do so. You can even shoot them in a certain way and place to make them drop all their pieces of rocks in the space!
- Can move "valuable bits of information" also know as commodities form a gianta bal of steel to anothe giant ball of steel far, far away. Don't worry, the commodities just sprout in the space, you can't really affect your favorite giant ball of steel this way
- Can point your pricey sensors in fireballs and giants rocks before others people. This called "exploring"

The only thing is, ED is far from being a complete game...