The Star Citizen Thread v 4

[Frank]

I prefer a film analogy

ED = Blade runner
SC = Plan 9 from outer space

The way I see it..

ED = 2001 a Space Odyssey
A movie which everyone says is very clever, is wowed by the graphics, but then they have to go to online forums to figure out what they've seen

SC = Wing Commander
As is says on the cover of it's own DVD, "An action-packed thrill ride" (Thanks for the you tube clip, 1500)

 

[Parmo]

I had nearly forgotten that movie... why did you bring suffering to us all!

Hey! I bought the Wing Commander movie DVD. I watch it from time to time - it's a nostalgia thing having bought and played the original Wing Commander games on my 80286 PC.
The movie has its faults but what movie hasn't?
It's great for spotting actors doing this kind of movie! The Brit actors do seem to have fun!

 

[Voivod]

Hey! I bought the Wing Commander movie DVD. I watch it from time to time - it's a nostalgia thing having bought and played the original Wing Commander games on my 80286 PC.
The movie has its faults but what movie hasn't?
It's great for spotting actors doing this kind of movie! The Brit actors do seem to have fun!

I loved the old Wing Commander games. I used to play endless games of Wing Commander Armada with my mate (even though the game had some horrible balancing issues).
The movie though is utter garbage and I don't mean that in a cult-like "garbage" way.

 

[Stigbob]

The way I see it..

ED = 2001 a Space Odyssey
A movie which everyone says is very clever, is wowed by the graphics, but then they have to online forums to figure out what they've seen

That really is quite apt, I prefer the blade runner comparison as its received praise for the visuals and technology (applies to both), had more than it's fair share of detractors and was later not only recognized as a classic far superior to it's competition but went on to become the bench mark by which all other sci-fi films would be judged. They also all make the cerebrally challenged go cross eyed.

Either way FD should be proud.

SC = Wing Commander
As is says on the cover of it's own DVD, "An action-packed thrill ride" (Thanks for the you tube clip, 1500)

My plan 9 comparison was based mostly on runaway scope creep. Vampires, ray-guns, frankenstein's monster, ufo's, zombies, the wolfman and aliens all crammed into one feature. Or in other words "a jack of all trades is a master of none".

 

[Kay Ross]

You know, I watched this the other day on Skype, with Dr Ross. Never once realised it was Poirot though.
Actually, I think the conversation went:
"This came out right after Starship Troopers didn't it? It's the same but... wait, they got Michael Ironside too?"
"Wow, he gets around"
"Is that really him? It looks..."
"No."

I blame the drink.

But the drink was a necessity to get through this exercise.

 

[303i]

Looks like CIG have canceled the 44million stretch goal. No more rooms on your hangar.

http://www.twitch.tv/cigcommunity/v/34287295

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/402zg1/no_more_room_system/

They've said in the past that the Room system (the specific tech they were working on at the time) is outdated and no longer being used. The space station "kitbash" system they've created will be used instead, allowing you to take various hangar pieces and put them together in a similar fashion to what the original Room system planned. It's a change of terminology/technology rather than a cancellation.

 

[MaxLexandre]

The D update on 2.1 PTU feels nice , 2 hours decently stable gameplay session. The servers are somewhat better, as the FPS drops while still there, are not as severe.

Star Citizen's FPS part is absolutely horrid.
It looked better a year ago.
The silence over Star Marine isn't good news.

Good thing it's under development then! There isn't complete silence towards it, from the first comment they ended up re-designing parts of it (even the EVA developed by Illfonic is being replaced, the new one based on physics rather animations that appeared on the first 2.1 PTU) as others, the basic FPS part is on-game, and it's quite one of my favorite gameplay to poke on currently, it's core is right but needs a big slice of FPS features to come, covers, start-stops, and so on. I would imagine as FPS features reach 2.X the closer SM is (and they seem to be a priority as the "next-update" list shown).

They've said in the past that the Room system (the specific tech they were working on at the time) is outdated and no longer being used. The space station "kitbash" system they've created will be used instead, allowing you to take various hangar pieces and put them together in a similar fashion to what the original Room system planned. It's a change of terminology/technology rather than a cancellation.

Yeah i looked at that, there is no Stretch Goal cancellation, the tech they have been developing, as the game is modular now, clearly seen on the way they're going with Ships, the end result of what's expect-able player-wise is still the same.

 

[Stigbob]

The D update on 2.1 feels nice, 2 hours decently stable gameplay session. The servers are somewhat better, as the FPS drops while still there, are not as severe.

Good thing it's under development then! There isn't complete silence towards it, from the first comment they ended up re-designing parts of it (even the EVA developed by Illfonic is being replaced, the new one based on physics rather animations that appeared on the first 2.1 PTU) as others, the basic FPS part is on-game, and it's quite one of my favorite gameplay to poke on currently, there's a big slice of FPS features to come, covers, start-stops, and so on. I would imagine as FPS features reach 2.X the closer SM is.

Illfonic are not to blame for the continual reworking of the basics. RSI held the purse strings, had overall control and should have been closely supervising. Like Chris Roberts surprise at the chat window during his failed attempt to play the game it shouldn't have been a surprise, he should have known already.

Yeah i looked at that, there is no Stretch Goal cancellation, the tech they have been developing, as the game is modular now, clearly seen on the way they're going with Ships, the end result of what's expect-able player-wise is still the same.

Not a cancellation, just another reworking. Like FPS, EVA and the flight model.

This is what happened to duke nukem forever. The longer it takes the higher the chance of the rest of the industry beating them to the punch on specific features, resulting in the need for more reworking to keep up and in turn more delays.

 

[MaxLexandre]

Illfonic are not to blame for the continual reworking of the basics. RSI held the purse strings, had overall control and should have been closely supervising. Like Chris Roberts surprise at the chat window during his failed attempt to play the game it shouldn't have been a surprise, he should have known already.


Not a cancellation, just another reworking. Like FPS, EVA and the flight model.

You don't know that, nobody actually knows what happened with Illfonic, all we know is that parts of what they did ended up re-designed and that is ongoing.


There is no reworking, it's simply being done with the same tech they already developed instead of do something new for it, that was the original plan that became un-necessary on this case. This is the same thing that happens with all games as they develop, things change, get added or removed as things do progress, the delivery can be the same, achieved on different ways.

 

[Stigbob]

You don't know that, nobody actually knows what happened with Illfonic, all we know is that parts of what they did ended up re-designed and that is ongoing.

Whats to know their work is being re-done. The buck doesn't stop with the contractor, it stops with the people who wrote the contract requirements and had oversight.

There is no reworking, it's simply being done with the same tech they already developed instead of do something new for it, that was the original plan. This is the same thing that happens with all games as they develop, things change, get added or removed as things do progress, the delivery can be the same but the ways to achieve it...

So it's not reworking, it's just being done over again. That's not progress, that's a waste of resources. Spreading out across multiple countries and studios probably doesn't help with communication and coordination.

 

[MaxLexandre]

Whats to know their work is being re-done. The buck doesn't stop with the contractor, it stops with the people who wrote the contract requirements and had oversight.



So it's not reworking, it's just being done over again. That's not progress, that's a waste of resources. Spreading out across multiple countries and studios probably doesn't help with communication and coordination.

When delays like that happen, something clearly have gone wrong, when on their side they did bring its development in-doors and hired some of the SM programmers specially.

On the 2nd, it can't be done over again because it wasn't done on the first place. This is people who poke them with questions about the lowest possible priority features. The tech is there, but Hangars need much love on more important aspects first.

 

[Stigbob]

When delays like that happen, something clearly have gone wrong, when on their side they did bring its development in-doors and hired some of the SM programmers specially.

Something went wrong, backers money was wasted and the project was delayed.

On the 2nd, it can't be done over again because it wasn't done on the first place. This is people who poke them with questions about the lowest possible priority features. The tech is there, but Hangars need much love on more important aspects first.

If it's such a low priority feature why announce it as if it's progress, why even waste time on it. Or is that because the flight model still isn't up to x-wing standards and SQ42 is in the early planning stage (other than mo-cap obviously). So there's no real progress to show.

 

[MaxLexandre]

Something went wrong, backers money was wasted and the project was delayed.



If it's such a low priority feature why announce it as if it's progress, why even waste time on it. Or is that because the flight model still isn't up to x-wing standards and SQ42 is in the early planning stage (other than mo-cap obviously). So there's no real progress to show.

Usual consequence, on projects as big as this i would be impressed if everything went perfectly. When i read about big today's titles when sometimes people sit and talk about, it blows my mind that some games we have today started being something completely different and the direction changes at mid-dev or features that never saw the light of the day killed during dev because they did not work out, it really doesn't impress me that SC can run into similar situations.

It's announced as part of the strech goals. The tech exist because the way they have modularity going on the game, for Ships, for building land-able zones, building space stations, etc... SQ42 and SC are part of the same game as known, the progress of the universe alpha is the progress of SQ42, the core gameplay mechanics are there already, what they have to do, is build/polish/balance all those features over them, that's why i disagree with your last sentence.

 

[Stigbob]

Usual consequence, on projects as big as this i would be impressed if everything went perfectly. When i read about big today's titles when sometimes people sit and talk about, it blows my mind that some games we have today started being something completely different and the direction changes at mid-dev or features that never saw the light of the day killed during dev because they did not work out, it really doesn't impress me that SC can run into similar situations.

It's announced as part of the strech goals. The tech exist because the way they have modularity going on the game, for Ships, for building land-able zones, building space stations, etc... SQ42 and SC are part of the same game as known, the progress of the universe alpha is the progress of SQ42, the core gameplay mechanics are there already, what they have to do, is build/polish/balance all those features over them, that's why i disagree with your last sentence.

The core game is yet to exist in a working state. You post about how 2 hours of relatively crash free game-play is a good thing, and it would have been 2 or 3 years ago. At the current rate of progress in a couple of years polishing can start, you need a game before you apply polish. SC is still in the concept design stage.

 

[MaxLexandre]

The core game is yet to exist in a working state. You post about how 2 hours of relatively crash free game-play is a good thing, and it would have been 2 or 3 years ago. At the current rate of progress in a couple of years polishing can start, you need a game before you apply polish. SC is still in the concept design stage.

I disagree. The core works, the gameplay is there, this on Crusader is a good thing as server-stability and other crashes have increased uptime from minutes to hours since first release (Alpha!), good thing that's not a blocker for SQ42. The game has been designed, a long time of engine and core development to result into the finally time to deliver many of the features and improvements of the current ones that we've been waiting for. And what we should be seeing on the next few months.

 

[Stigbob]

I disagree. The core works, the gameplay is there, this on Crusader is a good thing as server-stability and other crashes have increased uptime from minutes to hours since first release (Alpha!), good thing that's not a blocker for SQ42. The game has been designed, a long time of engine and core development to result into the finally time to deliver many of the features and improvements of the current ones that we've been waiting for. And what we should be seeing on the next few months.

The blocker for SQ42 is the flight model (and the FPS element) before they work you can't design or balance missions in any detail. SQ42 can't have any substantial progress made in it until the flight model is pretty much finalized (for all the ship's included in it fighters, auxiliary, civilian and capital ship's). PG planets, the space crab, private hanger gubbins and shopping are all irrelevant to the base game.

The tired claim that's it's alpha trotted out to defend obvious quality and progress issues tends to be contradicted by the refund's refused on the basis of substantial progress having been made and delivered.

Can't have it both ways.

 

[MaxLexandre]

The blocker for SQ42 is the flight model (and the FPS element) before they work you can't design or balance missions in any detail. SQ42 can't have any substantial progress made in it until the flight model is pretty much finalized (for all the ship's included in it fighters, auxiliary, civilian and capital ship's). PG planets, the space crab, private hanger gubbins and shopping are all irrelevant to the base game.

The tired claim that's it's alpha trotted out to defend obvious quality and progress issues tends to be contradicted by the refund's refused on the basis of substantial progress having been made and delivered.

Can't have it both ways.

I think this such a beaten up point, it's clear that on SC things improve and get finish over time, they don't do X and move to Y, they develop X and Y at the same time. But of course you can design missions with the current mechanics, the core will always be there to use, the rest is improved upon. The biggest blocker for SQ42 for me is far from that, is the AI, on witch the game experience completely depends on.

You can have one alpha and substantial progress at the same time. Substantial progress under the alpha stage of development. Too hard?
At this time it's a game of opinions, everyone on the universe has their own.

 

[Stigbob]

I think this such a beaten up point, it's clear that on SC things improve and get finish over time, they don't do X and move to Y, they develop X and Y at the same time. But of course you can design missions with the current mechanics, the core will always be there to use, the rest is improved upon. The biggest blocker for SQ42 for me is far from that, is the AI, on witch the game experience completely depends on.

You can have one alpha and substantial progress at the same time. Substantial progress under the alpha stage of development. Too hard?
At this time it's a game of opinions, everyone on the universe has their own.

They're not working on X and Y they're working on A to Z whilst doing multiple rewrites of anything approaching completion.

How do you design a scramble to defend the base-ship mission if you don't know the capabilities of the attackers defender and capital ship ?. What range should they spawn at, how many attackers, how long does it take them to close in, fuel capacity, whats the weapon range of the capital ship, how effective are the defense turrets, how strong are the shields, is the AI up to it, torpedo and missile speed.

Working ships and flight model first, because change anything above and you then have to alter everything else about the mission.

Basic stuff.

Which is exactly whats lacking.

 

[MaxLexandre]

They're not working on X and Y they're working on A to Z whilst doing multiple rewrites of anything approaching completion.

How do you design a scramble to defend the base-ship mission if you don't know the capabilities of the attackers defender and capital ship ?. What range should they spawn at, how many attackers, how long does it take them to close in, fuel capacity, whats the weapon range of the capital ship, how effective are the defense turrets, how strong are the shields, is the AI up to it, torpedo and missile speed.

Working ships and flight model first, because change anything above and you then have to alter everything else about the mission.

Basic stuff.

Which is exactly whats lacking.

The flight model works, it's playable, it's not finished, polished or fully balanced but your opinion of it certainly isn't the one of the majority that has been playing and providing feedback (on the forums) of it.

So a mission that requires you to defend a capital ship as a fighter from AI attacking, is certainly possible already to design and play through. Then as things get finished so does the mission on it's detail, and specially, balance, not sure why balance is a priority to you over getting the mission working first, and who says they don't know these things? SQ42 is not the MMO on this matter, they can and certainly are, doing their own balance. For quite a while, and on the massive asset leak earlier last year, many details on SQ42 enemy and ally ships, mission details and others were leaked, that shows they are not on the dark about what they are working on, and that this has been already designed for a while.

Because y'know... Maybe... just maybe... the people out there on Foundry 42 know how to develop a game.

 

[Stigbob]

Because y'know... Maybe... just maybe... the people out there on Foundry 42 know how to develop a game.

You missed my point about about mission design. It's a cart before horse, or a form before function thing like choosing the engine that's prettiest and maybe not best suited to the task(s) in hand.

We'll see, I wouldn't hold your breath for a release this year.