The Star Citizen Thread v8

[PiLhEaD]

...P.S.Off topic/I watched Blade Runner 2049 last night....it was really unique and almost"unexpectedly"awesome movie,probably THE BEST sequel I ever watch.....I highly recommended.......

Sorry to head further off topic, I saw it just after it came out, with a friend. We had both enjoyed the original. He loved 2049, whereas I thought it was horribly slow and way over long.

Back on topic, I'm from a real time systems design and coding background, latterly a Programme Manager, and I have enough bruises to know that the public face and the private state of any project in development are often two sides of a coin. Without a game development background I can claim no special knowledge, but the rampant feature creep, repeated missed deadlines, and buggy output all strongly suggest a project in trouble.

If I had missed as many deadlines, let alone an interim one by a year, I would rightly have been replaced long before now. Projects can, and often do, get turned around, but never with the same team in charge. Not in my experience. Ymmv.

 

[ianw]

I'm the "people who have zero technical knowledge or programming background" which is why I generally avoid making technical pronouncements/comments other than on stuff obvious even to a layman.

I do read and digest lot's of technical posts some of which are from elsewhere reposted and others that appear here in their own right.

The thing I find remarkable is that the majority of these well written and well explained sometimes in great detail opinions seem to think that SC is in dire trouble technically - perhaps beyond salvation.

Then I look at the videos of the game and the comments by CIG devs themselves and whilst I'm in no position to make a qualified assesment it certainly looks to me like they may well be right. It's a bit like me not being a meteorologist yet somehow I'm able to figure out whether it's raining or not or even about to rain!

On the other side mostly what I see is snark (which is entirely understandable if you're a devoted fan of a project that is increasingly laughed at -even more in the "press" these days by pretty much anyone who isn't a commited supporter), wishful thinking, and the repetition almost by rote of the usual stuff - never been done before - re alpha - biggest scope ever - brand new tech etc. etc.

What I hardly ever see - though that may be in part because I'm not actively looking for it and no-one is reposting it - is well thought out and rational, detailed explanations about how all the detractors are wrong.

So yeah - for me the detractors are winning the argument by a long way..

 

[Steve O B Have]

Well perhaps the 'detractors' just have a more even and objective view on the project. That it comes across as doomsaying is merely the result of an objective interpretation of the information at hand. It's tough to argue with facts especially when they're so adequately exampled by the subject matter.

 

[Vasea Azure]

snip.

@Mucka you did not convinced me to retreat my pending refund request of my full pledge. If this is real honest post and not just a paid RSI paratrooper (in with case - stop it guys you makes things even more silly because almost no one will treat this stuff seriously) I really honesty wish that you will look at this project with out the heavy rose tinted glasses one day because fanboying and making excuses for RSI mess of a management WILL only makes things worse. Wish you all the best in 2018 but you should seriously look at SC with more realistic way. From my point of view this project will fail 95% at this point.

 

[Backer42]

Same old puerile drivel being posted in here by people who have zero technical knowledge or programming background.
You should all just stop embarrassing yourselves.
I remember when the first planet demos came out and I tried to explain how the PG tech was superior to ED but of course I was told otherwise by people who have no clue, "it's just a bump map,".

Now the same people are telling us all how SQ42 playthrough demo was a failure because it had low fps and glitches - you know a pre-alpha not being polished or optimised, who would have thought?
And of course all the amazing tech is totally ignored, probably because most here are too blinded to even understand that it is groundbreaking in many ways.
What you actually saw was a player in first person walking around a capital ship as it flew through space.
Get into a fighter aboard said capital ship and fly out into space.
EVA out of ship and return.
Then descend down to a highly detailed planet surface with almost movie quality graphics.
And all this without a single load screen. No game has ever come close to such a seamless sandbox open world with such detail and interaction at a huge scale.
There is a reason ED went the route they did and did not take on such a huge technical challenge and all power to them for that choice - just don't tell me it has anywhere near the tech and scope that SC does.

The only valid criticism of SC is that it is too ambitious.
We can't say progress is too slow when so much new tech is being developed.
We can't say the game will fail, nor can we say it will be a success.
2018 should help neutrals decide now that the delta patcher is in and content and patches should arrive more frequently.
Also 3.0 was pretty much a total overhaul of the game rather than an iterative patch to 2.6.

I'm confident performance will be improved with bugs squashed, a lot of new tech still to be patched in to help frames, Vulkan, and of course the game isn't yet optimized for GPU drivers.
Content and game mechanics are still a big question mark for SC but I think that should work out.
My only real concern is whether it can all be woven together to make a cohesive whole.
SQ42 shouldn't have many of the issues SC faces so I expect it to be an excellent single player game - only real concern is subsumption and AI.

I have no idea why some are so desperate for the game to fail, if it succeeds it will push gaming forward to a new level.
I'll come back in 6 months to a year, some of you will be nearly teenagers by then.
Until then enjoy your echo chamber.

You start with an unfounded personal attack, then start comparing CIG's work in progress with Elite Dangerous. The point is: ED falling short of your (and my) expectations doesn't make Star Citizen a better product in any way. The BDSSE isn't going to happen, regardless of who tries it.

You brought up a lots of points, which are (sorry) mostly drivel, littered with meaningless buzzwords invented by Chris Roberts.

CIG is in a dire state. They are struggling with releasing any functioning game. CIG are as far from "pushing gaming forward to a new level" as a Walmart shopping cart is from winning the Formula One championship.

CIG contractually locked themselves into a technology which is (now) outdated and unable to do the job. And every demo they stitch together shows that. There is a reason for this: Chris Roberts started his crowdfunding campaign with a lie. The lie that he made this:

[video=youtube;t1Zc2oxijVY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Zc2oxijVY[/video]

But in reality an used car rental salesman contracted CryTek for providing that and paid a price for it - not in money, because he had none at this time, but in contractual obligations. And exactly that dishonesty doomed the Star Citizen video game right from the start. It took only a few months for his initial development team to notice that and jump ship.

The game never had a chance because of its inventor and the IP lawsuit will finally close that chapter. CryTek started it and CryTek will put an end to it.

 

[lysan]

I'm the "people who have zero technical knowledge or programming background" which is why I generally avoid making technical pronouncements/comments other than on stuff obvious even to a layman.

I do read and digest lot's of technical posts some of which are from elsewhere reposted and others that appear here in their own right.

The thing I find remarkable is that the majority of these well written and well explained sometimes in great detail opinions seem to think that SC is in dire trouble technically - perhaps beyond salvation.

Then I look at the videos of the game and the comments by CIG devs themselves and whilst I'm in no position to make a qualified assesment it certainly looks to me like they may well be right. It's a bit like me not being a meteorologist yet somehow I'm able to figure out whether it's raining or not or even about to rain!

On the other side mostly what I see is snark (which is entirely understandable if you're a devoted fan of a project that is increasingly laughed at -even more in the "press" these days by pretty much anyone who isn't a commited supporter), wishful thinking, and the repetition almost by rote of the usual stuff - never been done before - re alpha - biggest scope ever - brand new tech etc. etc.

What I hardly ever see - though that may be in part because I'm not actively looking for it and no-one is reposting it - is well thought out and rational, detailed explanations about how all the detractors are wrong.

So yeah - for me the detractors are winning the argument by a long way..

That is because when there is smoke there is also fire, and even though we're mostly pulling the faithful's legs, even if it's in a school yard kind of childish way, we're sitting here in our underpants in our parents basement (pless their kind souls) and tell people what is kind of obvious, the emperor do not wear any clothes..

The tailors in this story are the Robbers plus some renegades militant supporters, and the amount of kool-aid these guys has consumed must be more than dangerous

I would love to be wrong, I would love to fire up the engines of my BMM and get are great experience, that is why I spend $3000 USD on SC, and that is why I asked for a refund and received it.

The SC train tracks are going nowhere, and the train is soon to be derailed by skadden. Anyone who know just a tiny bit about cooperative law, knows why this is obvious.
They (CryTek) are about to make a statement, and they want it to be loud and to give waves across the software studios who even think about misusing their IP.
Even if this is going to be their last breath, this is what they want.

I bet, if they make a settlement, it's gonna be a loud one too, they are going to publish every little detail to the game outlets.

Oh and by the way, I still chuckle about CIG should be superior regarding PG, that was a good joke

World machine/Terragen, I believe they are using it or something similar.

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[ianw]

That is because when there is smoke there is also fire, and even though we're mostly pulling the faithful's legs, even if it's in a school yard kind of childish way, we're sitting here in our underpants in our parents basement (pless their kind souls) and tell people what is kind of obvious, the emperor do not wear any clothes..

I like to think that sitting in one's underpants is a kind of homage to the underpanted nipple jetted commandos we see fearlessly jetting around in a vacuum!

 

[S3B4ST13N]

That is because when there is smoke there is also fire...

People have been saying World of Warcraft is dying since the release of Burning Crusade in 2007.

I've yet to see actual evidence that SC is dying or will never be released.
But what I do see, is a bunch of people who either don't understand development, or are programmers but have never worked on a video game before* .. either/or, these people are expecting some kind of magical miracle .. where everything CIG is trying to do will just poof into existence.

Three things have caused this, 1) customer ignorance, 2) Chris Roberts making stupid promises, 3) their open development policy.

CIG have encouraged this because users are seeing how slow development actually is; and aren't understanding why - which leads to assumptions of the game dying, never being released etc etc etc.

* I love this picture. :>

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

People have been saying World of Warcraft is dying since the release of Burning Crusade in 2007.

If SC would be actually released game I would agree this sentiment.

Issue is it isn't. If game struggles at it's birth which is it's initial development, it does not bode well for future.

We all here have always been open to CIG potentially turning ship around?

Well, we don't really believe that anymore.

 

[Tippis]

I've yet to see actual evidence that SC is dying or will never be released.
But what I do see, is a bunch of people who either don't understand development, or are programmers but have never worked on a video game before* .. either/or, these people are expecting some kind of magical miracle .. where everything CIG is trying to do will just poof into existence.

Now, now, as silly as the company is, there's no need to be this mean to poor old CIG.

Well… some need. But not a lot. Maybe a bucketful, or five.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

If SC would be actually released game I would agree this sentiment.

Issue is it isn't. If game struggles at it's birth which is it's initial development, it does not bode well for future.

We all here have always been open to CIG potentially turning ship around?

Well, we don't really believe that anymore.

What makes you think it's struggling?
What they're doing is not only incredibly difficult, but, to my knowledge, no other game has done it to this level of detail or complexity. Not to mention they are doing two separate games at the same time.

Again, this comes down to what I said above .. user ignorance, and CIG's open development policy.

I don't see a struggling game; I see a massively detailed, massively complex, massively difficult and massively huge project; from experience, I know things like that can take a very long time to develop.


CIG's open dev policy has shown the backers and others game development like many have never seen; they're being exposed to the development world and are expecting things to be implemented quickly because they sound easy. "Just .. make the canopy open" .. that right there could be (and probably is) months worth of work.

CIG's open dev policy has shown that development takes time; and because development isn't happening as fast as some like/want .. then it must be because the game is dying, or struggling. It can't possibly be because, through their own ignorance, they've mistaken steady slow development as some form of struggle.

Some things in our project take months to develop; and they aren't even half as complex as something in Star Citizen; I have been asked a lot of times by clients if I'm struggling with my work. When I say no, they ask why it's taking so long .. and I have to explain that development is slow going, especially when doing it right.

Now, now, as silly as the company is, there's no need to be this mean to poor old CIG.

Well… some need. But not a lot. Maybe a bucketful, or five.

Oh I see what you did there. Clever boi.

 

[frostypaw]

You start with an unfounded personal attack, then start comparing CIG's work in progress with Elite Dangerous. The point is: ED falling short of your (and my) expectations doesn't make Star Citizen a better product in any way. The BDSSE isn't going to happen, regardless of who tries it.

You brought up a lots of points, which are (sorry) mostly drivel, littered with meaningless buzzwords invented by Chris Roberts.

CIG is in a dire state. They are struggling with releasing any functioning game. CIG are as far from "pushing gaming forward to a new level" as a Walmart shopping cart is from winning the Formula One championship.

CIG contractually locked themselves into a technology which is (now) outdated and unable to do the job. And every demo they stitch together shows that. There is a reason for this: Chris Roberts started his crowdfunding campaign with a lie. The lie that he made this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Zc2oxijVY

But in reality an used car rental salesman contracted CryTek for providing that and paid a price for it - not in money, because he had none at this time, but in contractual obligations. And exactly that dishonesty doomed the Star Citizen video game right from the start. It took only a few months for his initial development team to notice that and jump ship.

The game never had a chance because of its inventor and the IP lawsuit will finally close that chapter. CryTek started it and CryTek will put an end to it.

Damn I still want that game, it looks so much more exciting than where we seem to be heading now.

I've been wondering how Crytek do feel about all this - CR/CIG have done little but talk down and criticise CryEngine for years making out like it was pretty useless and they were having to fix everything. The damage they could have done to the brand is significant and if they can pin some of their business problems on that then it starts becoming very believable that they'd want to go for the throat and will indeed put an end to it all.

I'd still be sad I don't get to play ^^^ that game, but I'm not sure I'd blame them.

 

[frostypaw]

What makes you think it's struggling?
What they're doing is not only incredibly difficult, but, to my knowledge, no other game has done it to this level of detail or complexity. Not to mention they are doing two separate games at the same time.

Again, this comes down to what I said above .. user ignorance, and CIG's open development policy.

I don't see a struggling game; I see a massively detailed, massively complex, massively difficult and massively huge project; from experience, I know things like that can take a very long time to develop.

Here we go again. For starters while such slow progress could be understandable if the game was massive this, that and the other how does that excuse it when it's one tiny space around one planet?

When you say detail and complexity do you mean 3d model detail? What do you think is original here?

It's interesting how a year ago we constantly had commandos claiming "it's never been done before FULL STOP" but now it's matured a bit.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

What makes you think it's struggling?
What they're doing is not only incredibly difficult, but, to my knowledge, no other game has done it to this level of detail or complexity. Not to mention they are doing two separate games at the same time.

I won't dvelve into technical details on display, there's already too much info on that.

No one cares what they are trying to achieve. It is commercial project, trying to deliver product that's sellable for masses on time and and on budget.

CIG fails to do that with SC and SQ42 on both accounts.

No need to massage that "never done before" argument, it is stupid, there's good reason some of things CIG 'tries' to do is never tried, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WORK.

Jesus.

 

[Tippis]

What makes you think it's struggling?
What they're doing is not only incredibly difficult, but, to my knowledge, no other game has done it to this level of detail or complexity. Not to mention they are doing two separate games at the same time.

This just raises the question of what is “it” in this case? And what is “this level of detail and complexity”? Because nothing they're doing is new; and nothing they've shown or even talked about is particularly detailed or complex.

CIG's open dev policy has shown the backers and others game development like many have never seen; they're being exposed to the development world and are expecting things to be implemented quickly because they sound easy. "Just .. make the canopy open" .. that right there could be (and probably is) months worth of work.

…except that CIG is incredibly tight-lipped about its development and is more interested in providing sales pitches than in offering any explanations, insights, or behind-the-scenes processes for the choices they make or for why everything is so very very far behind every projection ever made.

They don't have an open dev policy. They have a “distract with irrelevant curios to sell more, while being actively and openly hostile to any questions about the problems they're facing” policy. Not quite the same thing…

 

[Vasea Azure]

I dont get the whole "scope" "scale" argument - the "scope" is to make my character not to glitch through the geometry on a dedicated FPS engine. They cant make things that indie devs from Helion nailed already. And maybe they should not developed two games at once and focus on basics? Just an idea.

 

[Stigbob]

<snip>

Doesn't matter at all, it counts for absolutely nothing.

Whereas CIG's understanding of game development matters (when discussing SC and in no other context) and that can easily be judged by the things they've achieved :

Failure.

 

[lysan]

What makes you think it's struggling?
What they're doing is not only incredibly difficult, but, to my knowledge, no other game has done it to this level of detail or complexity. Not to mention they are doing two separate games at the same time.

Again, this comes down to what I said above .. user ignorance, and CIG's open development policy.

I don't see a struggling game; I see a massively detailed, massively complex, massively difficult and massively huge project; from experience, I know things like that can take a very long time to develop.


CIG's open dev policy has shown the backers and others game development like many have never seen; they're being exposed to the development world and are expecting things to be implemented quickly because they sound easy. "Just .. make the canopy open" .. that right there could be (and probably is) months worth of work.

CIG's open dev policy has shown that development takes time; and because development isn't happening as fast as some like/want .. then it must be because the game is dying, or struggling. It can't possibly be because, through their own ignorance, they've mistaken steady slow development as some form of struggle.

Some things in our project take months to develop; and they aren't even half as complex as something in Star Citizen; I have been asked a lot of times by clients if I'm struggling with my work. When I say no, they ask why it's taking so long .. and I have to explain that development is slow going, especially when doing it right.



Oh I see what you did there. Clever boi.

Where is the complexity? please indulge us with this complexity.

Oh yeah! the two games at the same time argument, well they use same assets, one is a SP game, CoD IW actually did it in 3 years, as far as what CIG has shown, it's not that different in gameplay, many studios make more than one game at a time, Frontier Development is one of them.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Anyone read this? Look at those specs, then look at the fps. Brutal.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitize...um=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=starcitizen

 

[ianw]

What makes you think it's struggling?
What they're doing is not only incredibly difficult, but, to my knowledge, no other game has done it to this level of detail or complexity. Not to mention they are doing two separate games at the same time.

Again, this comes down to what I said above .. user ignorance, and CIG's open development policy.

I don't see a struggling game; I see a massively detailed, massively complex, massively difficult and massively huge project; from experience, I know things like that can take a very long time to develop.


CIG's open dev policy has shown the backers and others game development like many have never seen; they're being exposed to the development world and are expecting things to be implemented quickly because they sound easy. "Just .. make the canopy open" .. that right there could be (and probably is) months worth of work.

CIG's open dev policy has shown that development takes time; and because development isn't happening as fast as some like/want .. then it must be because the game is dying, or struggling. It can't possibly be because, through their own ignorance, they've mistaken steady slow development as some form of struggle.

Some things in our project take months to develop; and they aren't even half as complex as something in Star Citizen; I have been asked a lot of times by clients if I'm struggling with my work. When I say no, they ask why it's taking so long .. and I have to explain that development is slow going, especially when doing it right.



Oh I see what you did there. Clever boi.

As far as I can see the "struggling" bit comes from observing the state of the current build this far in and also in part based on the dev comments recently that they were having lot's of trouble particularly with regard to the constant demand for "fidelity". Then not long before that they said they haven't finished the new "netcode" or even started on the magic server meshing technology.

Not to mention all the other complex bits they're supposed to be adding but haven't yet.

All these "they're taking their time comments" seem to assume they have infinite time and money - yet the indicators such as the grey market stalling and the slow but steady increase of big money backers pulling out suggest otherwise.

And that's all before the lawsuit thing went public a week or two ago.

Yet all of that adds up to "they're not struggling" - for you. Really?