The transition for the planetary landings

[777Driver]

I didn't try to fly from one station to another in normal space, but I tried to move from one planetary ring to another and it didn't work. FSD has to be engaged in order to switch instance/frame of referrence (hence the name, frame shift drive). So, at least in this case, space is not really seamless: it's series of different instances attached to each celestial body; possibly the stations as well.

You can fly from one station to another, the spawn of ships is seamless when you arrive. Same with RES sites, I left the ship flying for 10+ hours to a RES that is too close to a star for SC entry, the ship flew all the way under normal propulsion and ship's seamlessly spawned in as the ship get closer to the RES.

You can test with any stations that are relatively close to each other, it obviously takes a very long time to get there... Exception is the Pareco system, all stations can be reached within 10 to 30 minutes flying time.

 

[Varrag]

Oh what it could be! If only we had dedicated server based networking in a single solar system! Oh "seamlesness", where art thou!

It doesn't really matter whether you have one of 400 billion systems if they are all procedurally generated: from your perspective -and more importantly- perspective of Frontier's data server, systems other than the one you currently are do not exist. Reason why there is just one star system in I:B is purely design-related.

 

[Cynaqq]

It doesn't really matter whether you have one of 400 billion systems if they are all procedurally generated: from your perspective -and more importantly- perspective of Frontier's data server, systems other than the one you currently are do not exist. Reason why there is just one star system in I:B is purely design-related.

The reason they are closely related is this:

In order to have an MMO, you have to have instancing. There is simply no going around it.

If I: had 400 billion star systems but retained the dedicated server based instancing instead of going p2p, you'd have the max number of players their servers can support distributed across the whole galaxy. By keeping everyone in a relatively small space, they guarantee (actually, we'll see how it will work out) people will find each other and fight.

It's a design choice alright but one that is closely related to the networking experience they wanted to create. I don't think they ever plan to stick a few hundred thousand players into a single map so they will cap the max players per instance just like ED does and run the maximum possible number of systems (with a capped number of total players) on separate servers.

Each server will create instances based on the population densities of regions of the star system and assign players accordingly.

In ED, the instances are capped at 32 players but the actual possible number of players in the same system is not limited since it's possible to create as many systems as there are player clients. With a dedicated server based model, you simply have a cap on the number of parallel star systems you can run.

 

[Varrag]

You can fly from one station to another, the spawn of ships is seamless when you arrive. Same with RES sites, I left the ship flying for 10+ hours to a RES that is too close to a star for SC entry, the ship flew all the way under normal propulsion and ship's seamlessly spawned in as the ship get closer to the RES.

You can test with any stations that are relatively close to each other, it obviously takes a very long time to get there... Exception is the Pareco system, all stations can be reached within 10 to 30 minutes flying time.

Interesting, thanks for clearing that up. Looks like factual game content is being seamlessly streamed then. However, it doesn't seem to work for celestial bodies. If you have time, drop between two adjacent rings and try to move between them in normal space - concept of "rooms in space" becomes glaringly visible.

 

[CMDR_UKmouse]

I don't have an issue with the current transitions from one form of flight to another, and I don't expect it to be any worse. Going from normal flight to SC, I understand it as the FSD has to charge, so how can anyone complain about this transition? When dropping out of supercruise, it takes a second. Seriously folks, are you really adding up all those seconds of missing gameplay?
Also, why do some people go on about I: and how seamless that will be? It's a completely different way the game is designed and played. You will be in a single solar system with 100's of other players. Basically a team deathmatch game. There is no instancing as in ED, so therefore it is designed seamless.
Come on people, give the guys at FD a chance. They have a truly amazing game, that will only get better over the next few years.
I'm in it for the long haul!

 

[Arithon]

I will deal with it.

1 up for infinity battlescape though as that has zero wait time.

The working prototype looked very good even if they are still a year away from Alpha.

The game won't be out though until 2017 and a you can land on a lot of planets in ELite in two years, not to mention what will be added to Elite in the next two years while we play it.

Support every space game! We're bringing the genre back!

 

[Jigsaw]

David said : "The transition from supercruise to orbital cruise is seamless - you just see the altimeter and flight ladder appear. When you drop from orbital cruise to normal flight there is a short transition, as with dropping from supercruise." ----- Your opinion ?

Exactly as expected. As long as instancing for multiplayer is required it probably won't change either.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

You fly...for a really long time...and then land.

Again, I suspect you fly for a really long time and then get to the point where you might want to land, but the software has not done the handshaking to the surface instance, and so you are stuffed. Like supercruising to another system.

 

[Tinman]

Again, I suspect you fly for a really long time and then get to the point where you might want to land, but the software has not done the handshaking to the surface instance, and so you are stuffed. Like supercruising to another system.

And I suspect you are wrong.

If you drop into normal space outside the drop zone of a station and slowboat your way in it will appear just fine and you will connect to other players too. There is no difference here in regards to planet side locations since they occupy the same gameworld inside the star system just different coordinates.

There is a huge difference between flying to a location inside a star system compared to flying to another star.

Things inside a star system actually exists as actual objects at specific locations (planets, stations, asteroid clusters, RES sites and so on..). Discounting spawned USS that is...

A neighboring star however does NOT exist as an actual object, which is why you can't get to it until you trigger the load (hyperspace). Stars are "just" visually represented as a skybox picture. An accurate skybox picture based on you location in the galaxy, which is awesome, but still just a picture.

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Interesting, thanks for clearing that up. Looks like factual game content is being seamlessly streamed then. However, it doesn't seem to work for celestial bodies. If you have time, drop between two adjacent rings and try to move between them in normal space - concept of "rooms in space" becomes glaringly visible.

The rings seem to be one of the few exceptions and based on my own tests it has to do with the fact that they are orbiting at different speeds and there is no code to correct your frame of reference as you approach a ring moving at a different speed in normal flight. Basically, you stay locked to the orbital speed of the first ring you entered. As long you aren't in the same frame of reference they don't seem to load the high level 3D assets either.

 

[Javert]

+1 to Tettric and Tinman on this.

The only thing I would add is that when you transition from SC or Orbital cruise to normal flight, you are basically doing a very rapid deceleration (or acceleration) in a second or less and/or a transition from a "space bending" mode of travel to normal flight. It's not unreasonable to assume this would be accompanied by some visual distortion and so on, so even from a realism perspective this seems fine to me as long as it's done in an immersive way.

As alluded to by others above, if it was totally seamless, we would probably have a lot of people crashing into planets as they mistime their deceleration and/or complaining about taking forever to approach the planet.

(Maybe this is even what the dev post yesterday was about with the comment about testing "going into planets" - maybe they are still fine tuning the timing and gameplay of how you trigger the transfer between OC and normal flight - FD are very well aware I'm sure that this is a very important point for many players).

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

And I suspect you are wrong.

If you drop into normal space outside the drop zone of a station and slowboat your way in it will appear just fine and you will connect to other players too. There is no difference here in regards to planet side locations since they occupy the same gameworld inside the star system just different coordinates.

Dev's have already confirmed that SC to the next system is not implemented a Looong time ago, whilst the drop out too early I reckon/suspect it puts you in to the instance of the nearest object, in your case, the station, in other cases, the nearest ring.

I reckon the closest thing we have to transition from Orbital SC to Surface Flight now is the approach to rings when not entering via extraction points.

The transition will, as he says, depend on your bandwidth and processing power. The buffer your machine and bandwidth, the quicker it will go from disengage and whispey wormhole, to *bang*... which reminds me a little of the BSG transitions from FTL. Just imagine that when we get Atmospheres... Shockwaves, man, Shockwaves...

 

[Cynaqq]

+1 to Tettric and Tinman on this.

The only thing I would add is that when you transition from SC or Orbital cruise to normal flight, you are basically doing a very rapid deceleration (or acceleration) in a second or less and/or a transition from a "space bending" mode of travel to normal flight. It's not unreasonable to assume this would be accompanied by some visual distortion and so on, so even from a realism perspective this seems fine to me as long as it's done in an immersive way.

As alluded to by others above, if it was totally seamless, we would probably have a lot of people crashing into planets as they mistime their deceleration and/or complaining about taking forever to approach the planet.

(Maybe this is even what the dev post yesterday was about with the comment about testing "going into planets" - maybe they are still fine tuning the timing and gameplay of how you trigger the transfer between OC and normal flight - FD are very well aware I'm sure that this is a very important point for many players).

Exactly! With miniature planets and relatively low speeds like in evochron mercenary or space engineers, approach and deceleration isn't really a problem since the velocity to size ratios are comparable to real life movements we engage everyday. In ED however it has to be tuned and assisted by computers since you'll be decelerating from FTL speeds to subsonic speeds in a, celestially speaking, single moment.

 

[Ignition]

So, its not seamless... As expected.

The always online did it again and will be there to remind us every time its presence.

The disappointing gauge is rising again.

But still Im trying the Beta this time, not like CQC.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

So, its not seamless... As expected.

The always online did it again and will be there to remind us every time its presence.

The disappointing gauge is rising again.

But still Im trying the Beta this time, not like CQC.

In other words, it will be the same as it is now. What did ya expect? Cherry Blossoms? A Sperm Whale and Bowl of Petunias? "Oh, No! Not Again?"

 

[Herik]

Don't care how they manage it really, getting down onto the surface and being able to go "dune-buggy-crazy" is all I am looking for.
Apart from PP and CQC the "real Elite" has not disappointed me so far.

Roll on planetary landings.

Yeah, their do seem to be a 'lot of you'; -Count me relieved by the end of the full Season, we'll have much more than that...

 

[Tenaar]

I've never had a problem with the hyperspace or supercruise transitions - I can still look around my cockpit and supercruise ones in particular usually only last a second or so. I've been pretty lucky with that.

However, I did discover something which surprised me. It looks like the transitions are specifically for the switch of speed states - when you use your FSD in other words. Maybe it's required because when going at FTL speeds, distance scaling becomes crazy?

But the point is - normal space seems to be seamless.

I read Elite: Legacy, and at one point, a pilot avoids system-wide scanners by staying out of supercruise and simply drifting toward a station in normal space. He shuts down most systems and eventually he reaches the station. It takes days and he's horribly uncomfortable at the end of it.

So basically, I wanted to see if this would work in game, though I did it in a less extreme way. I dropped out of supercruise 2 Mm or so from a station, aimed at it and then turned off flight assist and shut down most of my systems to conserve fuel. Sure enough, after a while the station appeared, first as a dot, then getting bigger. A little under two hours later I was close enough to request docking permission and land.

So it worked. And it looks like, in theory, you could fly seamlessly all over a system in normal space.

This is obviously a terrible idea for somewhere like Hutton Orbital, but it just struck me as kind of weird, ridiculous and awesome all at the same time.

I want to test it some more, so I'm trying to find two stations close enough together (perhaps each orbiting one of the moons in a tight binary orbit) so I can do a viable test. It might take a day of drifting, but I want to see if I can fly in normal space from one station to another.

Also, in beta 2.0 (and the relevance to this thread), I'm going to try taking off from a planetside starport and then try to fly up to an outpost in orbit, all in normal space, and see if its possible. If I can find a small enough planet, and an outpost with a tight enough orbit, this shouldn't even take that long. Be interesting to see what happens.

So in theory, it looks like you can fly seamlessly all around a system, and it's simply engaging your FSD that requires a transition. Is supercruise/orbital cruise sort of an optional thing then? Who knew, if that's the case.

Anyone else tried flying one station to another?

I tried that in federation space, but for some reason I found the target station orbiting the planet to move away from me too fast.

If stations orbit at realistic speed then you need to do some crazy match to catch its trajectory...

 

[Tinman]

Dev's have already confirmed that SC to the next system is not implemented a Looong time ago, whilst the drop out too early I reckon/suspect it puts you in to the instance of the nearest object, in your case, the station, in other cases, the nearest ring.

I reckon the closest thing we have to transition from Orbital SC to Surface Flight now is the approach to rings when not entering via extraction points.

The transition will, as he says, depend on your bandwidth and processing power. The buffer your machine and bandwidth, the quicker it will go from disengage and whispey wormhole, to *bang*... which reminds me a little of the BSG transitions from FTL. Just imagine that when we get Atmospheres... Shockwaves, man, Shockwaves...

I wasn't talking about SC to another system...

I was talking about the possibility to exit a station and slow boat down to a planetary settlement and land.

 

[DragoonKnight]

I've never had a problem with the hyperspace or supercruise transitions - I can still look around my cockpit and supercruise ones in particular usually only last a second or so. I've been pretty lucky with that.

However, I did discover something which surprised me. It looks like the transitions are specifically for the switch of speed states - when you use your FSD in other words. Maybe it's required because when going at FTL speeds, distance scaling becomes crazy?

But the point is - normal space seems to be seamless.

I read Elite: Legacy, and at one point, a pilot avoids system-wide scanners by staying out of supercruise and simply drifting toward a station in normal space. He shuts down most systems and eventually he reaches the station. It takes days and he's horribly uncomfortable at the end of it.

So basically, I wanted to see if this would work in game, though I did it in a less extreme way. I dropped out of supercruise 2 Mm or so from a station, aimed at it and then turned off flight assist and shut down most of my systems to conserve fuel. Sure enough, after a while the station appeared, first as a dot, then getting bigger. A little under two hours later I was close enough to request docking permission and land.

So it worked. And it looks like, in theory, you could fly seamlessly all over a system in normal space.

This is obviously a terrible idea for somewhere like Hutton Orbital, but it just struck me as kind of weird, ridiculous and awesome all at the same time.

I want to test it some more, so I'm trying to find two stations close enough together (perhaps each orbiting one of the moons in a tight binary orbit) so I can do a viable test. It might take a day of drifting, but I want to see if I can fly in normal space from one station to another.

Also, in beta 2.0 (and the relevance to this thread), I'm going to try taking off from a planetside starport and then try to fly up to an outpost in orbit, all in normal space, and see if its possible. If I can find a small enough planet, and an outpost with a tight enough orbit, this shouldn't even take that long. Be interesting to see what happens.

So in theory, it looks like you can fly seamlessly all around a system, and it's simply engaging your FSD that requires a transition. Is supercruise/orbital cruise sort of an optional thing then? Who knew, if that's the case.

Anyone else tried flying one station to another?

Try either the Naraka system or pifang. I think one of those may have stations near each other. Both systems should be less than 10 light years apart from each other.

You will probably want to use a Cobra with some extra fuel tanks (just in case) for your experiment.

 

[OnePercent]

because activate a curvature engine like the fsd wouldnt make any change in real life. lol

You're missing the point, It is an actual loadscreen, stop trying to shoehorn in some handwavium reason for an obvious technical loading screen.

Oh what it could be! If only we had dedicated server based networking in a single solar system! Oh "true seamlesness", where art thou!

Infinity's engine is procedural in nature and is capable of making 400 billion stars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0nfP2SiDzY

and also procedural molecular clouds and nebula spanning many lightyears in diameter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk_AKkgzBP0

As stated by 777 driver, we can already seamlessly enter and exit instances as long as we remain in normal space speed, you can actually fly from station to station and players and NPC's will seamlessly enter your instance without any loading, the supercruise mechanic is not needed, it is but a gameplay by-product of the Point to point jumping that FD initially intended for Elite dangerous before the DDF crowd begged FD to implement freeform fast travel.

My point is not about the fast travel but the way it was implemented. I think they could have done a better job.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

<something> I think they could have done a better job.

But they didn't. It was implemented the way it is now, as instance islands with a quick masked transition for loading the next instance. And that is the way it is going to continue whether anyone likes it or not. If that rocks your boat... <hands over a nice warm beer to cry in to>