The Trouble with Associating Jump Range with Exploration Gameplay

[John Xenir]

Truth to the matter is: if anyone was to properly explore - as in scan every astronomical object - along the way to, let's say Colonia, then I guess some people that started in beta would still be half the way out there

Okay, I may be exaggerating a little, but the fact is - with galaxy of this size, "proper" exploration is just not viable, unless it is the sole goal of such venture.
Like, for example, mapping systems in certain area for colonization.

This is the reason why I would prefer nicely-shaped bubble, out of which you need to expand into unknown fringes, where another system along the way is only discovered when in adjacent systems. Or otherwise but the point is - nothing that can be introduced now, so far into development.

I guess it's just the way it is. Accept it, or have a problem with it constantly. Your choice.

 

[Drelthar]

I think roughly around 5000 ly there are some nebulae? Might be wrong and it’s closer to 10k. Regardless, 5k ly IS what you need to travel to get to the second spiral arm on a direct route to sag A. It’s not hard, and anyone who explores will likely have a lot more than that under their belt. Though I do get why non-explorers would take issue with it. If Palin was solely for explorers it would probably be fine, but it might need to be changed to something else.

Yes, I agree with you.

If Palin specialised in explorer related things, instead of thrusters.... It would be fine, as it truly would be optional.

The one that demands you mine a bajillion rocks, should also, probably give mining laser , limpet, refinery, etc mods.

It kinda seems like the requirements are intentionally set to make explorers do combat, combateers do exploring, and pirates do mining (I'm making it up but you hopefully see my point)

 

[Han Zulu]

Yes, I agree with you.

If Palin specialised in explorer related things, instead of thrusters.... It would be fine, as it truly would be optional.

The one that demands you mine a bajillion rocks, should also, probably give mining laser , limpet, refinery, etc mods.

It kinda seems like the requirements are intentionally set to make explorers do combat, combateers do exploring, and pirates do mining (I'm making it up but you hopefully see my point)

Yeah. That's been kind'a one of my issues with engineering as well. If I want to blaze my path and have a career, shouldn't I focus on that career and be able to get engineering, missions, etc based on it? It's a bit haphazard right now. There should be a better focus on what each engineer does, and how reputation building - invitation, etc works as well.

 

[verminstar]

Jump range is how you get to an area of interest in a sane time frame. Saying it's not important is crazy talk.

Stopping to scan every last rock on the way out there is the sort of thing a train spotter would do.

First of all, I will deny in a court of law if necessary, that I am absolutely not sane. Cool, now we on a level playing field.

Secondly, I agree absolutely 100% that range is not always relevant to exploration...my last trip out was a 5 month sortie into the core in a 19ly type 9. It was only in the final few days when I was pulling back into colonia that I had any cause whatsoever to moan about my low range, but the motivation was the release of the type 10 at the time.

I wouldnt recommend that to yerself...some of us just have it and some of us do not, no need to beat yerself up over the doubt that yer fragile mental state might be threatened.

Sanity or insanity whatever...the distance is what sorts the men from the boys quite simply. Yer either an explorer or a tourist...its quite a profound difference in gameplay...like comparing chalk and cheese.

Range is important to exploration in certain circumstances in between the arms, granted but the gameplay opportunity has been lost. Last time I crossed the arms, I deadended several times and had no choice but to backtrack on meself to try and find an alternative way forward. To me, that was as explory as exploration gets and I want that so much more which is why I intentionally explore in lower range ships.

It all comes down to choice...I have a 52ly DBE as my taxi, and thats only with G4 roll...work in progress as is an exploration build type 10 and a clipper fer messing around in the bubble. Its not my apathy with the RNGeers that dictates my choices...if I choose to seriously explore an area, I will intentionally take a lower range ship unless I deem a higher range to be absolutely essential.

Most of the time, its not and that is, I think, the whole point of the OP...a good point and I agree so much, I gave it the rep it deserves ^

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I hear what you're saying, especially regarding the Lewis & Clark expeditions. Was watching a documentary about Glacier National Park in the US recently that quoted from their journals and talked about some of their adventures. Definitely some rather compelling accounts.

These days I can plot a route straight to the Scull and Crossbones Nebula and back using nothing but scoop-able stars in my 19.51 LY Vulture, no worries whatsoever about crossing the thin bits of space between the galactic arms.

Exploration isn't particularly about accessibility, or at least I would think that it shouldn't be. Going on tourist safaris, on the other hand...

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/taJEwvZ.jpg

Yeah, I'm not saying jump range doesn't have its uses. I just don't see it as an exploration specific gameplay mechanic the way that it often seems made out to be. It's just as important for things like trading in the game, if not even more so, in my opinion.

I live at the *start point* of that expedition, and I've hiked part of the route.

You can only really know a place by walking it.

That said, 45 LY is pretty good for everyone. It's the Anaconda, and super-duper, jumponium fueled record envy that's driving the need for longer legs. Now, if my *Python* could jump 45+ LY...

 

[sb413197]

Jump range above ~45 or so is a bit excessive usually. Up to 45 it’s nice though - allows you to focus on certain kinds of stars etc.

 

[WR3ND]

I see jump range as more of a travel mechanic. As such, it is of course a component of exploration in the game, but isn't specifically an exploration gameplay mechanic beyond its use as a travel mechanic.

When talking about exploration gameplay and its potential, enhancement, and further development, travel mechanics seem to play a more prominent role than more exploration specific gameplay mechanics, which I think is somewhat of a shame.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

It's all been said really.

If I'm exploring I want a ship with a big jump-range because:-
1) I have to get to the region I plan on exploring.
2) It's likely I will be exploring areas with low star density.
3) I am capable of manually selecting jump destinations if I want to make short jumps.

In short, I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Duly +1'd.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I live in Wisconsin. I'm not going to visit the Grand Canyon if I have to walk there. However, I might if I can drive or fly there.

Jump range makes a difference in whether folks will WANT to go out exploring...

I've flown *in* the Grand Canyon... At over 500 knots.

But walking it is the only way to really appreciate it.

 

[Han Zulu]

Crossing between the arms used to be a thing - pathfinding used to be a topic of discussion, e.g. getting across the Formidine Gap.
I remember struggling to find a way out of one of those sparse regions between arms - it was a genuine hazard for explorers.

I do feel like the doubled FSD ranges have really relegated that to being pretty effortless (nicer isn't really the word I'd use), and now it pretty much is only about the extreme outer fringes.

Isn't that an expression of progress though? In real life, we have now electric cars with 300 miles range, compared to some smaller electric cars with only 90 miles range. And recently, the largest rocket every made took off into space. Things move forward. We get technology that reaches farther out, go faster, and so on, because that's how technology, science, knowledge, works. We improve things.

So, in the world of Elite, wouldn't a couple of years improve jump rangers just as a couple of years improved the range of electric cars? I think that's how it normally goes.

The pioneers that broke the ground and did amazing feats with little equipment, kudos to them. They are heroes of the past. Leif Erikson's amazing feat of travelling in Kon-tiki doesn't mean that NASA should send space ships made of grass. Progress in inevitable, and the game should reflect a progression as well, I think.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Yes, I agree with you.

If Palin specialised in explorer related things, instead of thrusters.... It would be fine, as it truly would be optional.

The one that demands you mine a bajillion rocks, should also, probably give mining laser , limpet, refinery, etc mods.

It kinda seems like the requirements are intentionally set to make explorers do combat, combateers do exploring, and pirates do mining (I'm making it up but you hopefully see my point)

That was the specific intent: To make players do everything.

It turned out it was like scrubbing everything with toothbrushes in Basic.

 

[Flatkat]

Wholly agreed, to the point of +Rep.

Now I do get the desire to break out the well-known and traveled bubble, and even to reach beyond the better explored "outer bubble" to the very fringe of the galaxy itself.

And to that end, I've proposed, more than once, a single-use, strap-on range-extension module - Give me something I can use to hurl myself out 1000 or 5000 or 10,000 Ly - one way, once, and I'll find my way home full of data.

I remember something very similar from Star Trek - a sort of detachable long-range booster that was left behind... but can't remember if it was an episode or one of the movies this was used in.. but something along these lines would be great for those wishing to set out to the farthest stars.

Alternatively, a "Frame Shift Super Charging" facility would work - pull up, send a request via your Comm panel, just like you would request docking at a station, maneuver your ship into position and the facility emits a beam that pushes your FSD beyond safe limits - akin to a Neutron star boost, just with a more dramatic range increase, allowing for one really long range jump at the cost of considerable Frame Shift Module degradation - perhaps a 60-70% degradation to the module.

I would also put in, as a restriction on access to this, that a Permit be granted by Professor Palin, ensuring you complete your 5k Ly trip the same way everyone else has had to do so prior to being able to make use of this.

But as I began, Jump Range alone does not an Explorer make. Exploration is far more about What You Do, not How Fast Can You Get There.

You have some great ideas here. I particularly like the single use module, it could get us to where we want to be exploring, then we could dawdle our way back. [up]

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Isn't that an expression of progress though? In real life, we have now electric cars with 300 miles range, compared to some smaller electric cars with only 90 miles range. And recently, the largest rocket every made took off into space. Things move forward. We get technology that reaches farther out, go faster, and so on, because that's how technology, science, knowledge, works. We improve things.

So, in the world of Elite, wouldn't a couple of years improve jump rangers just as a couple of years improved the range of electric cars? I think that's how it normally goes.

The pioneers that broke the ground and did amazing feats with little equipment, kudos to them. They are heroes of the past. Leif Erikson's amazing feat of travelling in Kon-tiki doesn't mean that NASA should send space ships made of grass. Progress in inevitable, and the game should reflect a progression as well, I think.

In the real world, sure.
In the game world, power creep is frequently a detriment.

In this case, we had a galaxy with a defined structure of spiral arms with sparser gaps in between that had a real impact on navigation and generated fair amount of discussion and interest - path finding and such.

Now, we effectively have an amorphous blob that thins out at the edge.
The game setting is a little poorer for it.

Bigger isn't always better.

I believe Saturn V still holds the record - Falcon Heavy is now the biggest currently available.
That in itself demonstrates that progress isn't always a linear 'bigger and better' thing.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

… Jump range doesn't much affect systems explored per time the way fuel scooping does.
…

Fuel scooping speed as little effect on the time it takes to detail scan a system. Even if the scooping takes 2 minutes it's simply insignificant compared to the time it takes to detail scan a whole system.

It's just that fuel scooping speed is more important to you and jump-range isn't important for you. That's fine.

 

[WR3ND]

Fuel scooping speed as little effect on the time it takes to detail scan a system. Even if the scooping takes 2 minutes it's simply insignificant compared to the time it takes to detail scan a whole system.

It's just that fuel scooping speed is more important to you and jump-range isn't important for you. That's fine.

I likely come across dozens if not scores of "systems" that only have one star in them when traveling and exploring 1,000 LY or so, and I don't always stop to scan everything in a system unless it looks like an interesting system to me. Actually, for the past couple years or so, I haven't detail surface scanned anything in them unless I scan everything in them, including asteroid belts.

 

[Han Zulu]

In the real world, sure.
In the game world, power creep is frequently a detriment.

In this case, we had a galaxy with a defined structure of spiral arms with sparser gaps in between that had a real impact on navigation and generated fair amount of discussion and interest - path finding and such.

Now, we effectively have an amorphous blob that thins out at the edge.
The game setting is a little poorer for it.

Bigger isn't always better.

I believe Saturn V still holds the record - Falcon Heavy is now the biggest currently available.
That in itself demonstrates that progress isn't always a linear 'bigger and better' thing.

True.

So would you say you're a bit disappointed with Season 3 chapter 1? A lot of changes that possibly could constitute power creep?

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

oh that conversation again...

Anyway, same as in another thread, I'll add myself to the list of people that think jump range is important and not just as a traveling mechanic. It also allows to reach more stars, to find more routes.
This is all part of the big "exploration" theme, and subdividing it into different niches with random percentages of players or concerned stars is all too easy and all too convenient to serve this opinion.

Yes, exploring on a limited sidewinder, discovering unknown regions of space, scanning planets and systems everywhere they might be is exploring. In the same way, much like Magellan did with the search for his strait, finding difficult routes between what's thought to be unreachable space IS exploration. The numbers don't matter : it IS exploration so jump range is important for exploration . No double standard, no two-tier system : X=A, A=B, so X=B. I think the issue here is associating exploring with scanning only...

I feel it's a bit like saying : "hey, the numbers of mechanics who can fix an old Jaguar is quite low, so we can't really consider jaguar fixing is really part/important to the mechanic's trade." In the end, what's the point ? Bad metaphor, but where's the value in making that point ?

 

[MadDogMurdock]

True.

So would you say you're a bit disappointed with Season 3 chapter 1? A lot of changes that possibly could constitute power creep?

Compared to 2.1 the power creep is small. Once that was out of the bag, there was no going back.
Sure, I like bigger jump ranges as much as anyone, but the galaxy is somehow dimished by it.

I'm disappointed with 3.0 mainly because the fleshing out of core elements doesn't seem like much more than tinkering around the edges so far - the changes just move the issues rather than fundamentally fix them.

It seems like progress bars and grind are the only things the sockpuppet has in the toolbox.
Wing Missions are very much shared grind.
Hell, they even put progress bars below the materials counts.

 

[Blaize Meduenin]

Player expectations surrounding exploration gameplay inherently will have some effect on gameplay development and progression, I think. Jump range is just as important to trade related gameplay, if not even more so, for example.

Not by your own logic. You say jump range isn't important to explorers who fly thousands upon thousands of lightyears.

How is it then important to someone who can get anywhere within the bubble within a cple hundred lightyears? Answer it is far fra far less important to them as even with a 20 lightyear jump range anywhere is only a dozen jumps, unlike explorers who may have to do hundreds of jumps.

 

[WR3ND]

Not by your own logic. You say jump range isn't important to explorers who fly thousands upon thousands of lightyears.

How is it then important to someone who can get anywhere within the bubble within a cple hundred lightyears? Answer it is far fra far less important to them as even with a 20 lightyear jump range anywhere is only a dozen jumps, unlike explorers who may have to do hundreds of jumps.

I'm not saying travel mechanics aren't important to explorers. I'm saying they're not an exploration specific gameplay mechanic in general. Effective trading is more about profits and trade per time whereas exploration is more about systems explored per time. Not saying that's all it is about of course, but I think it's an important and relevant distinction to make, especially in regard to future potential exploration gameplay development and mechanics.