The White-knight Paradox: The fear of consequences.

[JeffRyan]

I'd put forward an alternative theory, this is the current front page of dangerous discussion. I've red boxed all the most obvious whinging :

https://i.imgur.com/yBcMQ8U.jpg

Maybe people are just sick of hearing it.

I have criticisms, concerns, I think my second last started thread was a critical post. But honestly, I pull my punches because when I do feel the need to criticise, I know it's just going to get lost in the noise. My biggest fear is the game is going to be derailed by people wanting it easier, not FDEV doing a hard reset. Hell, I'm considering doing a clear save when I come back in a month or two.

OP, people 'White Knight' or defend a game and a company they think is worth defending and don't agree with a lot of the criticisms, whilst at the same time acknowledging others, other than actual bugs, I'm generally happy with most (not all) of their gameplay decisions lately. After they got CQC and Powerplay out of their system.

 

[Sylow]

I haven't been accused of WhiteKinghtig yet, yet recently i feel like i'm very busy here defending the game.
.
There's ben times where i was mostly busy pointing out problems and campaigning for improvements. And there's still a lot to do. Wing missions are not perfect yet, they could be better. More social features could be implemented, but at least by now several of them are promised to come. Engineers are still not "great", but they recently were brought from terrible to acceptable. And the new crime and punishment system was sorely needed and i am astonished how many people seem to fight it toe and nail now. The actual issue i see is that while crime now finally got the risk it needed, it doesn't hold the appropriate reward yet. Yet very few people argue for that, while there's masses of people who demand crime and punishment to be rolled back.
.
I also very much agree with the flight model problem, that the game currently is weighted too much in favour of big ships. (Mind you, my philosphpy is that the player should count, not how long he grinded for a ship. ) Unfortunately i also see that all proposed changes to the flight model are very likely to not balance out things, but to weight the game in favour of small ships, utterly killing the big ones. So as long as i don't see -the- great suggestion on how to even things out without killing big ships, i am all for maintaining the status quo.
.
That being said, recently there was a rise of postings where people cry about random problems they experience, which actually are logical consequences of recent changes, where FD often already declared that they are aware of the issue and that they are working on a fix. Which doesn't stop those threads from building up hate and bile.
.
So all in all, while the game is not perfect, i also think that a part of the community currently is very busy ignoring everything that got better. They rather focus on those aspects of the huge last patch, which didn't turn out perfect and have problems. Even when FD acknowledged the problems and announced that the problem will be adressed, a good part of the forum seems to be too busy to spread the hate to even notice that they already were heard and will get their candies.
.

 

[El Grillo]

It's an unfortunate problem that the hardcore playerbase of ED are people who played the original Elite in the 80s, and like FDev themselves, seem to have little understanding of how gameplay design has developed over the last few decades and why it's developed in the way it is.

I mean that in very basic terms; look at other games where missions/quests form a significant portion of the gameplay content. Even Eve Online has more interesting mission design than ED, which is not saying anything positive about Eve at all.

Ultimately the situation would be improved so much if FDev just worked out how to get some fun, interesting or varied gameplay loops in their game. They have the two slices of bread for the sandwich - the (brilliant) gameplay mechanics such as flight/docking/scooping/stealth/combat are one slice. The other slice is the rewards and progression system which, while pretty broken in some ways, is at least somewhat functional and has a bit of depth to it (payouts, materials, rankings etc.)
What they are missing is the filling of the sandwich which binds all this together - actual substantive, varied and interesting gameplay loops. i.e. combat missions that don't just take place in empty space/a planetary ring, but instead happen at pirate bases, or derelict stations, or ship graveyards, or mining stations, whatever the hell else. Or stealth missions, heist missions, proper assassination missions where you have to decide on a strategy... trench run missions!

Until they get some interesting and varied gameplay into this game, nothing will really improve. The same arguments will continue here ad nauseum until the game eventually dies.

 

[Hexcaliber]

"Git Gud"
"Working as intended"
"Trigger Control"
"Situational awareness"

All used to shut down debate.

IMO not enough moderation.

The only folks who use the term "git gud" are those who object to being told they can do better and bandy it around as an insult.

As for "trigger control" and "situational awareness", they are real concepts that anyone can apply should they care to improve. Neither is used to shut down debate, when they are used it is where they clearly apply. Typically in threads from people whining about fines for shooting or ramming ships, and dying to NPC that are pedestrian, events that can be avoided by just about anyone.

There are clearly problems with areas of the game. However, not every complaint is justified, sometimes the real problem at the heart of a thread lies not with FD or the game, but a lack of effort or understanding by the player. It is just a pity that so often they are also the ones who do not want to hear it, and would rather claim x,y,z is broken, unbalanced, or unfair.

 

[GunnerBill]

Thanks for that reply, looking at it that way I understand why you added those two things. Yes, sometimes they are used to derail a discussion - like so many other things.
What I've noticed that a lot of commenters prefer to discuss the symptoms of problems instead of the cause of problems.

I wish I could give you +2 for this reply, simply because if all replies (in the context of this thread/OP) were like that then Dangerous Discussion would be a much better place

 

[Iskariot]

Had an interesting thought.

Radid White Knighting of Elite Dangerous, even in the face of legitimate complaints, is a symptom of the fear that frontier might induce a hard reset on anyone who has progressed via an exploit, including the true vets who had to scramble their way up through 'wholly legitimate' means?

Been playing since a few weeks before Horizons launched and have been signed up to the Forum for a similar amount of time. I have complained whined and even went into to full on hate rant during the search for the guardian ruins myself, so I am by no means above reproach when it comes to losing my temper, but I am curious about something.

What does it gain a user, if there are broken mechanics and bugs which block off gameplay, to defend these breaks and bugs and to shoot down anyone who just wants to vent their frustration. I don't see how it harms another player or the game if a level of dissatisfaction is made abundantly clear to a developer. It would appear that this is one of the primary functions of this forum.

Salt or no salt, being attacked is an over reaction.
It might be easy to say TROLLS!!! TROLLS!!!
This is how these saddos get their jollies.

My thought's however are as above. I believe that the perpetual defence of these definite mistakes and attacks on so called 'salty posts' are actually the Vet player base trying to overemphasize their satisfaction with the game over upstart noobs, so that frontier do not introduce any mechanic which could not be circumvented by a large credit balance and an RNG Godship, say for instance a retroactive punishment on anyone who gained their position through exploits.

I haven't seen one 'balance' or 'exploit fix' since playing that has not served to, in one way or another, punish or impede those with low bank balances, that isn't defended by the true vets. Vets who seem willing to allow the game to stagnate into tedium, as long as their top dog, day one, I trudged the hill so should you, position is maintained.

It is the only explaination I can think of.

Why they are listened to or at least agreed with by the developers is beyond me.

You presume and assume things without being able to back it up and ask loaded questions.
What is the point of this?

 

[Bigmaec]

Oh yeah, I would be happy to have each- and every one of the people who think I have billions to spare to have their credits be set to the number I have in my account. You are welcome to my wealth which is about equal to 4 hours of Smeatonning. Is that how it's going to be?

"Sir! I strenuously disagree with your assertion that these gold rushes are a boon to this game, and to prove my intentions are pure, I hereby provide you with all the details of my bank account."

I believe that is called: pre-empting the Ad Hominem. In fact, I know this, since I just called it that.

When the norm on a discussion board goes from engaging with someone in a discussion by addressing the arguments they put forth, to attacking the credentials of the one making the argument, in this case the bank account, we're in bad shape fellers. It would mean that above a certain number of credits, arguments on limiting income would be dismissed because of those credits. No matter how good the argument is.


Lastly, can anyone explain why the word "paradox" is in the title?

I have no idea what you're trying to tell me. Propably grinded too much.

 

[CMDR MRMAURICE]

Not sure what the hell the OP is getting at and I really cant be bothered to read every post. Fan boi's or white knights of a game on that games forum NNOOOO!!!! silly thing to suggest really.

Bug fixes or balancing stuff. Well theres a section for that and threads as well. People will disagree but forums are a dark place. People sat at keyboards and a moniter (or mobile ) wouldn't be like that in real life 99% of the time, and if they say they would then you're in that 99% . Who cares really? Are FDev gonna do what they want? Yup, and I hope they do. Take constructive criticism? Yup. But whinge and moan about not earning 100billion a minute is getting boring now. People love to moan, especially from a computer screen

 

[Ian Skippy]

Lastly, can anyone explain why the word "paradox" is in the title?

Its a big word supposed to make people who use it sound smart. Anyway, I am all for a server reset. Not sure if that was the question or not, but it is my answer. As for the 'people with a different opinion are scared!' statement: I raise that to: "people who dont agree with me are poopy-pants!"

See, I can be mature too. Such a paradox.

 

[metascrawl]

Lastly, can anyone explain why the word "paradox" is in the title?

Perhaps these white knights are planning to go back in time and kill their grandfathers.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I have no idea what you're trying to tell me. Probably grinded too much.

Not as much trying to tell you specifically something as using your post to make 2 points about a part of the OP.

I believe that the perpetual defence of these definite mistakes and attacks on so called 'salty posts' are actually the Vet player base trying to overemphasize their satisfaction with the game over upstart noobs, so that frontier do not introduce any mechanic which could not be circumvented by a large credit balance and an RNG Godship, say for instance a retroactive punishment on anyone who gained their position through exploits.

I haven't seen one 'balance' or 'exploit fix' since playing that has not served to, in one way or another, punish or impede those with low bank balances, that isn't defended by the true vets. Vets who seem willing to allow the game to stagnate into tedium, as long as their top dog, day one, I trudged the hill so should you, position is maintained.

It is the only explanation I can think of.

Since I am opposed against the gold rushes, according to the OP and some who have voiced their agreement I have god rolled ships and cash up the wazzoo, and I am protective of my effort which went into accumulating my great amount of riches and I'd be damned if some filthy pleb who just started this game would be as rich as I am. I being a top dog. The fact of the matter is, I have probably less credits than anyone who even just for a few hours made use of these gold rushes, and my ships only have a medium engineered FSD and scans

So I wondered, since I am not sitting on billions of credits, and I don't own god rolled ships, am I now allowed to voice my opinion on Gold Rushes? is the number of credits in one's bank account the determining factor on the validity of one's argument or should the argument itself not be the deciding factor?

in short, thread is one big sweaty hairy Ad Hominem.

Perhaps these white knights are planning to go back in time and kill their grandfathers.

And make a clock out of them!

 

[metascrawl]

I believe that the perpetual defence of these definite mistakes and attacks on so called 'salty posts' are actually the Vet player base trying to overemphasize their satisfaction with the game over upstart noobs, so that frontier do not introduce any mechanic which could not be circumvented by a large credit balance and an RNG Godship, say for instance a retroactive punishment on anyone who gained their position through exploits.

 

[Esymphony]

I just want to make enough money to maintain my ships. Can we just have a little bit of progression, just a bit? My rebuy cost on my conda just hit 20mill and now I don't want to fly it until I get the level 5 shield gen because that's a fifth of my credit balance if some joker with a better engineered ship than me decides he wants to send me to the rebuy screen.
Actually, can we just do away with engineering? It's busted and the only counter play is more engineering

 

[znôrt]

I am known to be a white knight and I would absolutely welcome a reset.

you didn't read the thread? white knights don't exist. try again.

unrelated music video to derail (but at least a good one):

[video=youtube;B9DqykUsqRY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9DqykUsqRY[/video]

 

[Ethaidan]

https://goo.gl/images/9UEHi4

He's definitely pointing at you Ziggy.

 

[ShimEnki]

Had an interesting thought.

Radid White Knighting of Elite Dangerous, even in the face of legitimate complaints, is a symptom of the fear that frontier might induce a hard reset on anyone who has progressed via an exploit, including the true vets who had to scramble their way up through 'wholly legitimate' means?

Been playing since a few weeks before Horizons launched and have been signed up to the Forum for a similar amount of time. I have complained whined and even went into to full on hate rant during the search for the guardian ruins myself, so I am by no means above reproach when it comes to losing my temper, but I am curious about something.

What does it gain a user, if there are broken mechanics and bugs which block off gameplay, to defend these breaks and bugs and to shoot down anyone who just wants to vent their frustration. I don't see how it harms another player or the game if a level of dissatisfaction is made abundantly clear to a developer. It would appear that this is one of the primary functions of this forum.

Salt or no salt, being attacked is an over reaction.
It might be easy to say TROLLS!!! TROLLS!!!
This is how these saddos get their jollies.

My thought's however are as above. I believe that the perpetual defence of these definite mistakes and attacks on so called 'salty posts' are actually the Vet player base trying to overemphasize their satisfaction with the game over upstart noobs, so that frontier do not introduce any mechanic which could not be circumvented by a large credit balance and an RNG Godship, say for instance a retroactive punishment on anyone who gained their position through exploits.

I haven't seen one 'balance' or 'exploit fix' since playing that has not served to, in one way or another, punish or impede those with low bank balances, that isn't defended by the true vets. Vets who seem willing to allow the game to stagnate into tedium, as long as their top dog, day one, I trudged the hill so should you, position is maintained.

It is the only explaination I can think of.

Why they are listened to or at least agreed with by the developers is beyond me.

One more to consider. Could these invalids (those that try to invalidate others opinions and experience) be actual FD staffers dedicated to buffering player base rallies to correct these things?
And why? I think they have very little time allotted to ED by ...oh I don't know, investors maybe...or whoever calls the shots related to which of their games is positioned to $-ially succeed easiest.
For whatever reason it seems to me that there is a higher level reason for such incredibly asinine objections to legit player complaints.

 

[Ian Skippy]

One more to consider. Could these invalids (those that try to invalidate others opinions and experience) be actual FD staffers dedicated to buffering player base rallies to correct these things?
And why? I think they have very little time allotted to ED by ...oh I don't know, investors maybe...or whoever calls the shots related to which of their games is positioned to $-ially succeed easiest.
For whatever reason it seems to me that there is a higher level reason for such incredibly asinine objections to legit player complaints.

Dont forget the illuminati, and I am pretty sure those space lizzards are part of the conspiracy too.

Its the only logical conclusion!

 

[ilo]

It's an unfortunate problem that the hardcore playerbase of ED are people who played the original Elite in the 80s, and like FDev themselves, seem to have little understanding of how gameplay design has developed over the last few decades and why it's developed in the way it is.

This kind of arrogance is what makes me stop reading the rest, no matter how right or important it is.

 

[ShimEnki]

Dont forget the illuminati, and I am pretty sure those space lizzards are part of the conspiracy too.

Its the only logical conclusion!

Yup, I shall consider those avenues too cmdr.

Anyways, come on Mr white knight of white knights. You can use far more advanced tactics of reducing nerve pressure that this basic one, I'm sure of it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

https://goo.gl/images/9UEHi4

He's definitely pointing at you Ziggy.

I think so too

https://imgflip.com/i/26u92d