This need saying...

Well given the trader has to risk his uninsured cargo on every trip and the BH only has to risk his insurance, and given the fact that BH is for the most part, shooting fish in the barrel, you are not even making the case that BH is more risky.

And as reward goes, actual visceral fun is a much bigger reward objectively than worthless virtual credits.

A job that no one wants to do because its so boring and involves massive entry costs and risk to capital should pay very well.

If you think trading in Elite is risky, you are the worst pilot in the universe. I also said bounty hunting is simply incomplete, which is why it's so lame. There isn't anything to do past the beginner stage. There's no content for combat really.

You said activities should reward more because they are boring, that is just so off the mark I think you've let your internet arguments get the best of you. You don't have to champion one activity at the expense of others, that's just stupid. For whatever reason you think combat should be it's own reward (you expose a HUGE bias here), which just reinforces what the other guy said about "play how you want, as long as you trade".

As things stands the risk vs reward is completely broken. Trading has no difficulty and extremely little risk. If you have even a basic idea about what you're doing, you don't need to die. Ever. You don't even need shields, it's just sad how easy and automatic it is.

Bounty hunting is also easy, because there's nothing to do. I'm saying I hope they give more challenging and rewarding things for people who enjoy combat.

Bottom line, when the easiest/dullest activity is the most rewarding, the game is very poorly designed. That is Elite currently.
 
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Well given the trader has to risk his uninsured cargo on every trip and the BH only has to risk his insurance, and given the fact that BH is for the most part, shooting fish in the barrel, you are not even making the case that BH is more risky.

There is no risk in this game from what I have seen so far. The greatest chance of losing a ship is pilot error. The only time I have lost a ship so far (only been playing since release mind you) is by boosting at the slot inside a station then getting insta alt-tabbed because a mate added someone to the skype call we were all in. Lesson learned.
If things get hairy when BH’ing at a nav beacon you can just double boost and jump. The risk of actually getting popped by NPC’s is tiny.
The lad I play with who trades does so sans shields and weapons, whilst watching movies on his second monitor. NPC’s are so simple to avoid and we’ve only seen 2 other players in our part of Empire space since we moved out here.
Cant speak to mining/exploration however as I haven’t spent a great deal of time with them yet.


A job that no one wants to do because its so boring and involves massive entry costs and risk to capital should pay very well.

Its not a job, it’s a game. I really wish this whole “grind” mentality was taken out of games. Not having a go at you here, it’s a design flaw prevalent to most of the industry in the last 10 years or so.

There simply shouldn’t be a role that “no one wants to do”. All careers should be equalling rewarding, in terms of enjoyment and progression towards that next shiny ship.
 
I've played from release fumbling about making a few credits trading and bounty hunting here and there then I found a link to a trade tool and bingo, dropped the bounty USS nonsense and started trading and the credits are rolling in. Shame I had to stumble across a third party toll to make any decent financial progress in the game.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

I'm not sure which tool you use, and it doesn't really matter.
I think the point you have missed is that someone at sometime had to find that route or the info for the tool to work to allow you to capitalise on it to begin with.

There is a certain amount of skill and a reward to be had from learning how to find those routes on your own.
The route you're using to make 100k or whatever has always been there for you - you just didn't know how to find it.

Should something change and that route (and any others contained in the tool) no longer be viable, what are you going to do then? Other than wait for someone else to update it for you?

Learning how to find your own routes is all part of the fun for me, and I'm self reliant for my own profits, not on some 3rd party tool that I don't need.
My current route gets me 2.6mill an hour, took me about 40 mins to find it using nothing other than pen and paper and the in game tools.
 
Finally! Someone who can answer a question without getting defensive and snarky!

Thank you so much for taking the time to type that out, I think i now have a better understanding of the income disparity.

So, given that you have clearly done both professions to reasonable degree, would you say that the payouts between the two (given risk/capital investment and time) are fair and equitable in your opinion?

On paper, yes, but there are some stumbling blocks in the execution that is hampering it. On the one hand, it DOES depressingly mirror life, where often the 'financially solid' approach isn't exactly going to be the exciting one, (not every good musician gets to be a rock star, whereas many good accountants will get a solid job) You should also keep in mind that, as mentioned before, what you're seeing in terms of my 210k credits in ten minutes is the culmination of lots of scouting, comparing prices, and trying to predict how the surrounding economy is going to function, and the biggest weakness that bounty hunting faces is that it's very 'Hand To Mouth.' You having a metric ton of success yesterday in terms of pirate killing isn't likely to have a tangible benefit today, whereas my success in securing a new trading route yesterday will last me for a very long time. Still, if I'd gotten killed even once in the first eight flights (wouldn't even have had to be THAT skilled an attacker, given how bargain basement my modules were,) I likely would have ended up having to sell my freighter and go back to bounty hunting, with a million credits gone just like that. Not to toot my own horn, but I'd like to think that the convenience and efficiency of my route, if not the base profit, is a bit above average. ^^ Finally while the purpose of being a skilled Bounty Hunter comes down largely to making other ships explode, the job of a trader is, LITERALLY, to make money, so it making more money, to some extent, than a bounty hunter is inevitable.

The sheer size of that gap, however, brings us to the stumbling blocks, which in no small part have to do with the size of the map. First, the risk of running into another player is minimal outside of the core, and players current are the only REAL threat. While I wouldn't want to deal with an NPC in my Type 6, I'd MUCH rather that than a player of any skill level in a Viper or Cobra. I've blown up enough Type 6 ships to know it isn't that difficult to accomplish.

It also helps that my route is, I believe, a bit distant from the player base, because given there's a preferential bias for the Empire, I opted to go in the opposite direction. Not only does this mean I'm less likely to be ganked, (and I can uuuusually evade NPC Interdictions, knock on wood,) it also means that instead of having dozens or hundreds of players chipping away at my station's demand for the product I ship by supplying it en masse, I get hundreds of thousands of units in supply/demand all to myself, for now at least, because there aren't many, if any, other players eating it up. So rather than having a brief, but profitable run after which I must inevitably move on to greener pastures, I can (and therefore, obviously, am, cause goddamnit I want a Python too,) just squat in the same two systems and do the same trade potentially hundreds of times before the profit margin dips too much.

I also get the impression that the idea is things should be more, well, challenging for traders, encouraging us to (whenever they make this a feature, if it isn't one already,) spend money hiring escort ships, thus cutting into the margins a bit more, and it's possible NPCs will increase in difficulty (at least in terms of interdiction frequency/skill) to make up for a spread out player base. Doesn't have a super large effect on those with near-to-sun routes like myself, but on traders relying on stations even a couple thousand light seconds from the sun, it could give pause to the thought of going unguarded.



So, short answer is I DO think that traders should be making more money than the other professions, because it's literally about spread sheets and profit. And I do think that those who have the patience, fortitude and stubborness to root out exceptional routes should be rewarded accordingly, i.e. make lots of money by even regular Trader status. However, I do think there are a lot of pockets where a Trader's 'seek out profit' quest will rapidly dissolve into 'Repeat Same Route Ad Nauseum,' and that Bounty Hunting's somewhat Spin The Wheel approach to potential income should be, if nothing else, given some more spikes to compensate for the inevitable slumps.

Honestly man, I'd recommend you get a Type 6. xD About a million to buy the ship, kit it out with a kickass hyperdrive for another half mil, if nothing else a few milk runs a day could keep your bank account healthy enough to pay the rebuy on your Cobra twenty times over. xP Then just alternate; fly around and blow stuff up much of the time, but do more profitable trading runs in between.
 
ditto, i've never used a trading tool and so far i have a tricked out cobra, a tricked out type 6, a type 7 and 22 million credits. my current trade route earns me between 1.5-2 million credits an hour.

How far out from Ho His are you? I wouldn't expect anyone to share their routes, I'm just interested in how far out players have needed to go to get these routes. Everywhere within 130ly that I've checked have decent demand but totally tanked supply, or good/medium supply but tanked demand, making any two-way routes nonexistent. I've managed to find a few one-way routes, but the demand is low in the supplying system.
 
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yes of course trading is going to make more money!!! its business.
this is why you dont see to many green beret millionaires.
 
If you think trading in Elite is risky, you are the worst pilot in the universe.

Given insurance and how it works in game, its an objective economic fact that trading is more risky than BH. Both activities are relatively safe, but if there is an unforseen problem, the trader stands to lose a lot more. The BH might actually die more, but each death carries much less cost than a trader death.

Also anyone who cant get why a boring task in a computer game will need to reward more credits than a fun one cant understand the simplest rules of economics, e.g. incentives.
 
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Honestly man, I'd recommend you get a Type 6. xD About a million to buy the ship, kit it out with a kickass hyperdrive for another half mil, if nothing else a few milk runs a day could keep your bank account healthy enough to pay the rebuy on your Cobra twenty times over. xP Then just alternate; fly around and blow stuff up much of the time, but do more profitable trading runs in between.

I hear you mate, I may well have to do just that, this Python aint going to buy it's self!

As you say income from hunting is spikey at best. Nav beacons seem to be a bit more steady, traffic wise that is, than using the recourse exaction sites. Not even going to comment on USS'. Who knows, maybe bounty hunting will get some love in the future, will just have to wait and see I guess.

Thanks again for taking the time to type that, it's pleasant to see someone not just spewing bile and vitriol around here :)
 
Given insurance and how it works in game, its an objective economic fact that trading is more risky than BH.

No, it is not "objective" economic fact. You're confusing two risks: one being the actual risk to your ship and its potential destruction, and the other being the potential loss of credits from the first one. They are not the same. The risk to your ship is much higher if you're a bounty hunter unless you're a great pilot or have tons of shield cells, while the risk to your ship if you're a trader is virtually zero outside of your own flight stupidity, or a bug, or a rare player interdiction.

The potential loss of credits is a different but related risk. I can rack up a half million credits worth of bounties in one hour, easily. However, if I never bother to travel to all the appropriate station designations and turn them all in, and my ship gets destroyed, I lose them all.

Both activities are relatively safe, but if there is an unforseen problem, the trader stands to lose a lot more.

Having performed every profession in the game except pirate, I can tell you that while the trader does stand to lose more if he's a rich one with a hold full of pricey goods, the chances of the trader losing everything are far less than the bounty hunter losing everything. Bounty hunting is relatively safe for me but I can understand many people would argue the opposite, and even that being the case, the idea that the risk to a BH is about on par of that to a trader is ridiculous, and you're delusional if you think so.

Also anyone who cant get why a boring task in a computer game will need to reward more credits than a fun one cant understand the simplest rules of economics, e.g. incentives.

Uh, no. It's called high-risk high-reward for a reason. You don't reward boring and easy and safe activities because "no one wants to do them," people will want to do them BECAUSE they're safe and easy. You reward people who risk losing a lot (AGAIN, traders have very low risk to their ships, period) and put themselves in dangerous situations, because no one wants to put their ships in danger. Your idea is that the opposite should be true because one thing is fun to do and the other isn't. That's an incredibly heavy bias right there and completely unreasonable. You don't even try to hide that you're a dedicated trader.
 
+Rep Shooter.

Thats the thing, no matter which way you slice the careers/profit margins. Progession at this stage is purely financial based, despite what RMK thinks.
BH need to make big credits just as traders do, one could argue more so.

The need for a better ship, the need for better weapons, shields, power plants, distributions etc are all part of the current progression tree. BH need all these to progress to higher paying targets.

Then comes the insurance, and the risk that you might get RNG screwed on the next ship loadout and lose your ship, then all the bounties you racked up.
If you dont lose your ship, you have the wear and tear to pay off from interdicting etc. Repair bills, ammo restock fees, and of course the fuel.

Traders only risk is as mentioned above. Their running costs aside from fuel is the wear and tear which would be far less than a bounty hunter depending on how often the trader is interdicted.

The only reason trading is more profitable is because its completely predictible once you find a route until it dies. There is no RNG. You know where goods are at point A. You know where they need to go for point B.

You arent randomly wasting time dropping into 2000 uss's hoping RNG gives you the content you need.

If trading had the same RNG element as everything else, I bet the traders wouldnt be so happy....
 
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