[video=youtube;Txn8UrNZNgY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txn8UrNZNgY[/video]
so i just found that....is this the flak cannons working as expected????
so i just found that....is this the flak cannons working as expected????
This was nerfed...right?
- Thread starter mephisto9466
- Start date
No, this is Flechette launchers working as expected.
Amd its not really that bad, point defense makes them near useless. And its harder to hit anything bigger than a Clipper.
That cutter...I'm sorry but there's so many things being done wrong there...just boost away, or even use boost at all! Use yaw to help turn on your target faster! Make use of FA-off here and there! Set up your power priorities! Get out of dodge if you can't take the heat! Don't rely on too many turrets!
I glanced back and forth through the video, I swear all I can see was this Cutter pulling back on the stick and nothing else the entire fight...like...what....
I will say I think that's pretty dang wonky that flechette launchers can target modules through shields like that. AFAIK the Phasing effect on lasers and PAs can't do that, right? So why was that reasoning reversed for these weapons?
I glanced back and forth through the video, I swear all I can see was this Cutter pulling back on the stick and nothing else the entire fight...like...what....
I will say I think that's pretty dang wonky that flechette launchers can target modules through shields like that. AFAIK the Phasing effect on lasers and PAs can't do that, right? So why was that reasoning reversed for these weapons?
i have zero clue
The flechette's projectiles are are easily destroyed by point defence and are really only effective against larger ships due to their 550m\s speed.
They're a counter to shield tanks like reverberating torpedoes, but they go about it differently. I'm not entirely sure but according to some CMDRs a MRP or two can soak up most of their damage.
Eh, okay, point defence being effective against them is neat and all...but still, why allow them to target internal modules like that when that was already ruled out for Phasing?
We don't *need* gimmicky silly counters to heavy shielding (like reverberating cascade), what we need is a balance pass to once-and-for-all give a formulaic approach for weapon & equipment design and get rid of lousy hitpoint-stacking overinflation.
I'd sure hope a MRP is effective. That's one piece of equipment that I think is quite fine as-is and likely would remain so after such a drastic change.
What we need is to let problems fester for a long time, then come in, overcorrect and make things better in some ways and worse in other, new ways, and I'm pretty sure Frontier is with me on this.
Flechette launchers are a manual control weapon and if you detonate them too soon they can do damage to the firing ship too. Not sure I agree with the perception that it is hard to hit anything bigger than a Clipper - I would say it is a knack to hit anything with them but the larger they are the easier it is (Point defence not withstanding)
Flechette launchers are by design a shield penetrating weapon and intentionally have a low level of damage to balance that out, I have no issue with such weapons being perhaps the only shield penetrating weapons to effectively target specific modules.
I know I am. Solid plan, high five!
huuuuurrkk
That comment needs to be nerfed pronto, being able to bypass my hopes and dreams with unfortunate and all-too-commonplace reality is OP
Totally different reasoning for a different niche of weapon. Phasing is specifically intended to attack hull only and cannot even damage any modules other than the canopy (with the absolute/phasing damage portion). Phasing also bypasses resistances has no damage falloff and is available on hitscan weapons.
Flechette launchers are specifically intended to attack modules through shields and this is what they do. They have a 100% beach chance and the majority of their damage is breach damage. They also have a large area of effect.
The projectile velocity is atrocious and doesn't increase with the velocity of the firing ship; the ammo count is low; and the damage is rather pathetic. They are also munitions that will be targeted and destroyed by PDTs (and ECM or screening shell).
They are useful against very slow targets, or pilots that don't know what they doing, who also haven't made any effort to protect their modules from kinetic damage.
Had that cutter sacrificed one shield booster, 2ly of jump range, and 16 tons of cargo and/or had a fighter, or moved a bit more effectively, very little would have happened from two flechette launchers. You don't need a full combat loadout to protect against them (and a pure combat vessel can virtually ignore five of them).
Na'Qan makes it look easy but flechette launchers are not an I win button.
Flechettes are utterly underpowered with only 73 shots and a 550 m/s fixed shot speed. It's only effective against ships with zero MRPs and thick shields.
Having said that, IMO it needs a buff in said values to make it viable. Been using a dropship with 4 flechettes and I could destroy a Chieftain's drives or weapons just before I ran oit of ammo with FOUR flechettes.
Actually all tech broker modules need an ammo buff.
But no, flechettes haven't been nerfed and I couldn't think of a reason why they should be.
Having said that, IMO it needs a buff in said values to make it viable. Been using a dropship with 4 flechettes and I could destroy a Chieftain's drives or weapons just before I ran oit of ammo with FOUR flechettes.
Actually all tech broker modules need an ammo buff.
But no, flechettes haven't been nerfed and I couldn't think of a reason why they should be.
The synthesis recipe must also been toned down. 3 grade 3 mats (1 tungsten, 2 boron) is expensive. And don't get me started on enzime synthesis... G3,4 and 5 mats required...
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You make a good point, I guess....
It's hard to really think about whether it's "fair" or not when the playing field is so uneven.
The ability to bypass shield just smells like gimmick to me, so that's where my initial reaction is coming from. Given that it's reasonably limited it MIGHT be fine, but if it's mostly a situation where you win depending on whether or not someone took MRPs (rock) to beat flechettes (scissors), then I'm not so sure I'm fine with that.
Granted too though that MRPs are reasonably easy to obtain and fit in just about any ship, partially thanks to the new Military Slot system.
It's just...they're sounding kinda like torpedos: they stink for doing combat in an orthodox manner, but (with special effects) they work very well as a bypass gimmick....
I'd like to believe that both torpedos and these flechette launchers could be made to be interesting, useful, different from missiles/frag cannons respectively, without necessarily going so far to be what I term to be a gimmick.
'Course, I'm not sure that can be done without addressing balance overall. Like, with hitpoint overinflation in particular, a long time ago now it made torpedos all but obsolete without special effects in play.
Sorry; in a nutshell I guess I'm just doing a lot of hemming and hawing.
I see flechette launchers as a crippling tool. Great to incapacitate a target you don't want to blow up, like when you're pirating or liberating hostages etc.
I could argue that shields themselves are a gimmick, offering nearly complete protection from all angles, with minimal counters available. It's not directional, it's not damage resistance, it doesn't take any action to leverage on a basic level. It's a suit of armor with no chicks or gaps that keeps the person inside safe until it's utterly destroyed.
While not all the implementations thrill me, the ability to bypass shields is good gameplay that discourages complacency.
It's a game of rock, rock, rock, rock, rock, paper, scissors. Pick any rock and the scissors fail, while picking paper is difficult to do.
In the video it looks like the power plant suffered a malfunction, which then caused the shield generator (and other modules) to lose power, in turn causing the ship to become a sitting duck for penetrator dumbfires.
The Cutter CMDR could have:
- Paid attention to module integrity and left once they realized what was going on.
- Set power priorities to keep the shield generator, or at least thrusters and FSD, operational during a power plant malfunction.
- Used a power plant with more integrity.
- Equipped a few MRPs.
- Used bulkheads and/or HRPs to improve kinetic resistance.
- Equipped a PDT or two.
Any one of these would have made it difficult for two flechette launchers to disable, let alone result in the destruction of, a cutter. You can do them all and still have a cutter that carries over 600 tons of cargo that has the shield strength to withstand almost any conventional attack long enough to escape.
The only way to pick paper and see what we see in the video is to simply ignore defense entirely, or pretend that shields equate to absolute immunity, convincing one's self that raw shield strength is the be all and end all of defense. Obviously, this is not the case and anyone who was able to acquire a cutter without realizing this is much in need of the sort of demonstration in the video.
Shields are effectively an auto-regenerating secondary layer of armor and do have damage resistance properties where damage to that layer is concerned.
They are far from a gimmick and are a staple element of most space sci-fi games. The same can be said of shield bypassing tech to at least some degree.
In a PvE context, damage resistance (both shields and hull) is perhaps one of the meccas of combat-prepared builds (more about survival than winning) that most would probably consider fun. Similarly, shield penetrating (counter-shields) and absolute damage (counter-resistance) weapons are also desirable (more about winning than survival).
In a PvP context, damage resistance (regardless of type) is perhaps one of the crutches of builds that most would probably hate to go up against. Shield Penetrating and Absolute Damage weapons can counter these to at least some degree but normally their effectiveness is deliberately limited to avoid glass-cannon syndrome. Some may like the glass cannon principles (essentially the same as frag-fest principles) but not everyone does - especially when they are on the receiving end.
TheMegaTurnip
Banned
They might be a staple in Sci-fi, but a game has to be playable, shields as they are are defiantly gimmicky, if the were toned down somewhat then it wold be fine, but at this stage they are so out of whack with everything else it makes them gimmicky.
As for the Frag-fest.. I avoid them like the plague, because at least in PvP, all they have to do is "sniff " in your general direction and they eat 10% off your hull. Blanket fire literal easy mode no aim required weapons should NOT be powerful, same with missles, both need a nerf along with the shields. I dont see shields down combat being fixed without those changes personally.
Though that being said, i'm all for new kit, even if it's gimmicky, The shield tank SCB chugging meta needs to die and i don't much care how they do it.
For instance, reimplementation of the beta 2.1 feedback cas'
Or if they were to remove the jitter on the Cyto's for example, there would instantly be a couple of real, actually applicable hard counters to shields that aren't "one pump chumps" (torps) and they won't have to rely almost exclusively on your opponents stupidity (mines, flechettes)