Thought's about using Slopeys

[Slopey]

AFAIK these tools are getting a direct data feed from FD.

I'd give my left dangly round bit (spam filter) (metaphorically of course) for an official feed from FD. There must be an API as the official iOS app can do it.

I have asked cuddly Mr Brookes, and to be fair, he didn't say no but his response was basically:

 

[Johnny Cyclops]

Nope. Slopeys tool for example leverages the back end of the "marketdump" utility by andreas. That utility uses a debugger to hook the display of the commodities screen, every time anyone using marketdump opens the commodities screen, the online back end is fed an update on prices and supply at that station. Slopeys tool runs marketdump and works in one of two ways. In local mode, it populates a local database that holds only data that you collected yourself, in online mode it queries an online database that is updated from EVERYONES marketdump data. That "last update time" in Slopeys tool is the last time any trader running marketdump passed through that station and looked at local prices.

To be clear, it sounds like "anyone using marketdump" means only those people using the piece of software from Slopey and NOT a data scrape of all trades made by the ~30,000 users cited by Slopey. Just keen to ensure no one is monitoring my trades and other metrics/data. I wasn't aware when using Slopey's tool briefly that there would be an upload of my data to aggregate with what he's already holding, but I'd need to check again next time I use it (if I do).

From a privacy POV it gives me a little concern, but I'd need to know more about what data was being stored, for how long, and what it contained. As it's only monitoring/reporting prices in realtime there's seemingly no need to keep data beyond say an hour after which earlier data should be deleted, however Slopey indicated he can see who's been logging in & out of his tool (over a longer period?).

Perhaps Slopey could be clear about what ED data he is holding and for how long. That might settle my nascent concerns.

 

[Slopey]

To be clear, it sounds like "anyone using marketdump" means only those people using the piece of software from Slopey and NOT a data scrape of all trades made by the ~30,000 users cited by Slopey. Just keen to ensure no one is monitoring my trades and other metrics/data. I wasn't aware when using Slopey's tool briefly that there would be an upload of my data to aggregate with what he's already holding, but I'd need to check again next time I use it (if I do).

Did you read the above? There aren't 30,000 users using the BPC, there are 500. Updates are provided by the marketdump tool - you'll need to speak to Andreas about that but the only information uploaded is the station system, name and prices. Your credit card details and other pointless minutae are safe unless Andreas is a master criminal in disguise! Feel free to access the EDMN data - sample Python code is in his thread.

Prices are ONLY uploaded by marketdump, since Beta 1.02 the BPC stopped accessing ED's memory directly to get prices (largely because they improved garbage collection so it's not sitting there, and also because I'm not any good at the breakpoint stuff, and I hate reinventing the wheel).

From a privacy POV it gives me a little concern, but I'd need to know more about what data was being stored, for how long, and what it contained. As it's only monitoring/reporting prices in realtime there's seemingly no need to keep data beyond say an hour after which earlier data should be deleted, however Slopey indicated he can see who's been logging in & out of his tool (over a longer period?).

Perhaps Slopey could be clear about what ED data he is holding and for how long. That might settle my nascent concerns.

Sure, I track the prices for any given station from updates provided by users via marketdump (and listening to that feed and updating a backend database) indefinitely, until I decide it's getting a bit big and clear it out. I also track the IPs of users requesting the market data from a web page to see how many people are using the tool, but that's it. It's all unencryped - feel free to packet sniff the transmissions if you want, you'll see a request to a dumpAll.php page (doesn't POST or GET anything, just requests a page) and that's all. The IP tracking is done by virtue of the fact that you're calling a web page, so your IP is logged automatically on the web server end. Again, feel free to do some crazy proxy stuff if you want.

Sniff away....

Feel free to ask anything you want in the Market Tool topic in the Beta forums or in the BPC chat room - see sig. Note that I've always said I'd turn the BPC tool off tomorrow if asked by FD, but now that the marketdump tool exists, it's out of my hands.

 

[Ben Ryder]

Hello Slopey SIr, I have used your tool but I don't any more. It's very clever but it's kind of undermining the effort that's gone in to the galaxy map, trade routes and so on. Think you could knock it on the head for a while and see if people have more fun without it and see what Frontier come up with in the next release? Any way, well done. It is very clever. I'm not very clever though and I don't know how all the market wizardy works with your tool and other tool. It just doesn't feel quite right for anything beyond testing.

 

[Styggron]

Slopey's web tool is the first place I go when I want to do a trade run

 

[TastyRK]

What is fun anyway?

These discussions always seem to come back to fun. People tend to do the things that make them happy. Those who like these tools clearly think using them increases their fun, those who advocate against them think it reduces their fun. This is totally understandable, what's fun for me may not be what is fun for you.

Rather than trying to convince people that their version of fun isn't actually fun (something that is very, very hard if not impossible to do) I'd like to understand whether the consequences of one person having fun impacts on the fun of another. If my having fun by face punching you results in you having less fun, you know because of your broken face, then there should be a law restricting me from having that kind of fun.

There is an argument that people using the tool are impacting on the fun of those who don't by flooding certain high-profit routes and thereby reducing their profitability over time due to the shared economic environment in ED. How true is this? I suspect it's not very impactful because (a) not many people are using these tools, (b) there are hundreds (thousands?) of profitable routes even with only 55 systems and (c) people who don't use the tools still appear to be having fun trading.

IMHO the 'correct' way to play the game is by having your-kind-of-fun while not causing too much sadness for others (there is PvP combat after all). I could be wrong.

[Full disclosure : I have used Slopey's BPC but now I hardly trade because my kind of fun is hitting USSs with my fully-loaded Annie, in Solo mode ].

 

[Moritasgus]

I use Slopey's tool fairly regular, i'm running a T6 and would eventually like to try a T9 although my passion for the grind has slightly vaporised in Beta 1 so i'm playing pretty irregular.

I use the full mode but would be plenty happy with running it in local only, heck id even be happy with just data collection only so there is still a skill to trading with manual calculation of routes and profits but so i didn't have to resort to pens/paper/spreadsheets etc. Collection of the data from your last visit should be an in game minimum with the option of buying more recent data (but not fully up to date) for credits. This still leaves an element of risk that prices may have dived but at least give you an idea to work off.

I think come release FD will try their best to block this kind of app but rightly for testing they are focusing on building the game rather than closing 'exploits'. I use the term exploits lightly, what i mean is that one of the was to get Elite in game will be trading so allowing a 3rd party app will mean anyone can get elite in no time at all especially if the only metric for getting that rep is making money. Hopefully it will also hang largely on completing often dangerous delivery missions so while a tool may make you rich it won't make you elite.

 

[Dark Lord Insidious]

OK so here it is...... I use Slopey's tool to do my trade runs and find it is a great tool indeed at this stage of the game but.....

Once the beta is over and gamma is released the tool will cease to have so much importance unless you use it in local mode anyways, and even then it will be less effective. Once we can go to 4 billion star systems the tool will not really do much except for the areas around the starting systems as there are just too many systems that people can visit and the data will quickly be out of date on most systems... and even local mode will be of less use as the same thing may happen because unless other people(with the tool) frequent the same systems you do then you would need to physically keep going back to all of the systems you have been to, to keep the data current.

Correct me if I am wrong but I think it will not be as much of an issue as people are thinking.

 

[Hypnotic]

But I wonder what you all think about having this information handed to you so easily and really ending any sense of building up a secret trade route.

Unless anyone is going to take the position that in the 34th century there is no internet and people don't make use of interstellar communication networks to share pricing...this should be integrated into the game as a point of sheer common sense.

The idea that in a trade dependant market driven society that trade prices wouldn't be available as standard is kinda ludicrous.

 

[azdour]

Hello Slopey SIr, I have used your tool but I don't any more. It's very clever but it's kind of undermining the effort that's gone in to the galaxy map, trade routes and so on. Think you could knock it on the head for a while and see if people have more fun without it and see what Frontier come up with in the next release? Any way, well done. It is very clever. I'm not very clever though and I don't know how all the market wizardy works with your tool and other tool. It just doesn't feel quite right for anything beyond testing.

I think its more about choosing or not choosing to use those tools.

I personally think that if this was really the year 3300 and that trading was as it it is in game then sooner or later someone would come up with something similar because there is a gap in the market for such a tool.

I like the fact that inventive players within Elite have spotted these potential gaps and provide us with tools to help, and sure maybe later down the line they will be superseded by other things developed by Frontier.

 

[Stressfest]

It's a fantastic tool. I'd bet my left fluffy that anyone who is in markets and trading in the real world wouldn't just drive/fried/fly about randomly looking for the best deal. They'd be well educated on markets and current trends and this is what this tool does. Either use it or not... entirely upto the individual but for me, it's priceless

 

[zolhof]

Unless anyone is going to take the position that in the 34th century there is no internet and people don't make use of interstellar communication networks to share pricing...this should be integrated into the game as a point of sheer common sense.

The idea that in a trade dependant market driven society that trade prices wouldn't be available as standard is kinda ludicrous.

My thoughts exactly! (really, I was about to reply something very similar, but you beat me to it lol)

I love the "write down" approach, been there done that, but come on.. it's 3300, I highly doubt we wouldn't have some efficient builtin trading tool in our ships (or even an add-on).

 

[Jezzah]

I dont use Slopeys tool though props to him for making it. Im sure its a real labour of love. If FD are funny about providing extra support for this sort of thing then maybe people could try using the in game tools. I wrote a little post with pictures and all about it some time back that might help folk.

http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=690271#post690271

 

[Zargor]

I think it's a fantastic tool, Slopey did a great job. I used it extensively to get my Anaconda. However, once the game goes live it will give massive advantage to anyone using it and will make any sort of market intelligence moot - just choose a system, find the best profit cargo, load. While using it most of the time you won't even bother to know what type of system you are in as it doesn't matter - load tool, find route, rinse & repeat.

It will make the Elite rating for traders pointless as there is no skill involved, no market reading, no route planning.

 

[rayvon]

Well its sad to sere that they might actually support cheat programs like this in game.
After all this time waiting for a multi player elite game, the only way to play on an even playing field is in solo play, pff

I never really though that this crap would take root here of all places, well, I guess that's what I get for making assumptions.
back to solo i go, gutted.... in the vague hope that this slopey loser gets banned and so do his rubbish tools

 

[spookytooth]

We know this subject is going to carry on ad nauseum I guess until the devopers take a formal stance on the subject.

Personally, I use Slopey's tool, and I've been very happy to use it so I can sample each of the ships in this pre-production issue of ED. If it's still permitted I will probably continue to use it in later versions. Am I spoiling the "immersion factor" by speeding up the process, maybe, but it's also given me the ability to explore using a larger ship, which will be my ultimate aim in the final release. It's a means to an end. Ok, it's giving me an advantage, but arguably, so is using a HOTAS setup over the keyboard/mouse control method. Playing on a larger monitor(s) may also be seen as an advantage. The whole game is open to modification to be able to play "better". You might argue that Slopey's brilliant tool is not supplied by Frontier, therefore not eligible, but unless Frontier supply everyone with the hardware to play ED how they intend, then the playing field is never going to be completely level, or fair, if you want to be completely pedantic!

I'm completely happy to wait to see what the official reaction is going to be. If it's not what they intend for the final release, then I'm sure they'll be the first to make this clear. In the meantime the tool's there for everyone to use/ignore at their leisure, as is the ability to use any other device to play the game - how you want to play it!

PS - thank you Slopey for taking your own personal time to give me this excellent tool

 

[Snowdog]

Love Sloppy,and really appreciate the fact that is has a chat feature built in it so you can talk to other commanders in the universe.

IN GENERAL: If you don't like something (in real life or not) then do not use or view it, don't impose your narrow view of the world on others.

 

[Mr Onak]

Every multiplayer game with an economy has its third party tools. Endorsed or not. Whether its online like Slopeys, or you scribble things with pen&paper, use spreadsheets or write your own database driven application... someone will do it.

Does this mean that anyone who's not using any of that is at a disadvantage? Of course.

Does it mean that anyone who's not using any of that can not trade any more? Not at all.

IMO Frontier should seriously consider putting a remote stock request option in the comms menu for a station. Much like what Slopeys "Station Stock" does. Maybe upgradable with "software" items you can buy at a station to increase range to neighbouring systems. X3 had something like that, software you could equip your ship with that gives market information increasing with tier of the software.

It would bridge the gap a bit for people who want to play the game without third party tools.

But let's get real here, third party tools will always exist and chances are very high that there will be at least one that will be better than anything Frontier develops as part of the game. Why? Because Frontier focusses on the game as a whole (as they should) where enthusiastic individuals spend tons of their free time getting a niche product such as a trade tool perfect.

My personal stance is that I will use trading tools if trading turns out to be a big part of my playtime in Elite but I can understand people who don't want that for themselves. However I would prefer a tool that integrates into the game for immersion purposes. Be it (c) Frontier or via third party mod/plugin.

 

[ErikNikolai]

Third party tools like this is one of the reasons why being a trader has zero appeal to me. It basically gives you two alternatives: Either play honestly and be at a great disadvantage compared to the traders you're competing against, or use a tool which reduces your profession to a mindless grind where the only skill that matters is the skill of avoiding pirates. I wish there was a way to determine who's using it in-game, so I'd know whom to plunder with a clean conscience. Hopefully something will be done to make tools like this less effective after release, though.

 

[spookytooth]

I wish there was a way to determine who's using it in-game, so I'd know whom to plunder with a clean conscience.

Now there's a novel idea - a pirate with a clean conscience! Yes I know you're all loveable rascals really