Thoughts on the Keelback in general but mostly on the effect of equipping its' fighter hanger

[tanner1ie]

Ok, firstly a good thing, it's the first ship i've bought/flown so far* which can fit a class five shield.
So even at the moment when i just bought one and am upgrading it and can't afford to add much to it, after only putting, i think a 5D shield in it, it's already got stronger shields than my nearly maximum shielded Cobra mark iii with its' 4A shield and 1A shield booster.
(I know i could add another shield booster to my Cobra, but i've barely upgraded my Keelback's shields and they're only going to get better .)

Otherwise on this ship, while i know it's slower, dearer, has less jump range, less cargo space and one less utility mount than the Type 6, i just bought it instead of the Type 6, partly because i've little reason for a pure freighter right now and because i'm hoping that the Keelbacks' extra hardpoints and in particular, its' fighter hanger will either only just about or possibly easily, make it better than and worth the extra cost over the Type 6.

Now while i'm in the process of upgrading mine and i'm not even half ready to fly it yet, one big disappointing thing struck me about the ship.
Since the ships' fighter hanger seems to be the big selling point of the ship ( and not just that it's a possible capability of it), i assumed that the hanger would be a special core internal module in the ship, which you could either use as is or upgrade with the biggest possible negative effects of doing so, possibly lowering your jump range or speed etc slightly.

I didn't expect the hanger to be just another optional slot, in particular one only available in class size five on the ship, meaning that with the ship *only* having two class five optional slots, since mostly people will usually want to put the best shield their ship can fit in such a slot, that if you want to use the hanger it'd mean not being able to at least fit one of your ships' maximum class cargo containers, in the ship as i'd naturally want to be able to do (and usually do) .
Meaning that even if i used both the ships' three and four class slots for cargo, i'd only be left with 24 cargo slots, less that the 32 i usually have in my Cobra with two class four containers fitted (i think the ship should AT LEAST have a third class five slot if you have to carry the hanger as an optional module, so it can at least match my pretty standard Cobra's set up of 32 units, if not more.

(Really though, with the ships current design and cost, i'd want it to have three class five slots and at least two class four slots. So after using one five for a shield, one for the hanger and one for 32 units of cargo, if it still had two class four slots, which i could add a 16 unit cargo container to, raising its' fully combat build, cargo carrying capacity to 48 units and still have an extra class four slot left available for various other tasks, i'd probably put a hull reinforcement module in it, but maybe a high class passenger cabin or a mining refinery, whatever, while still using its' existing small slots for scanner, a docking computer and/or fuel scoop etc .)

The hanger should be a big bonus to the ship, but the way it is right now, it actually hurts the ship, particularly as a freighter, combat or otherwise :_ .

While i know Frontier likely did this so ships like the Cobra and Viper couldn't equip a fighter hanger, they could surely just have made the hanger, as i suggested earlier, a special core internal module, only installed on certain ships. Also am i right in assuming fighter hangers are this much of a compromise on pretty much all the ships that can fit them, or do most others have enough high level slots to still be versatile while carrying one? .

(* After my free Sidewinder, a Cobra mark iii, Adder, Viper mark iv and a Diamondback Explorer.)

 

[Wyaston Hypatia]

In ED ship outfitting is all about compromise. You sound as if you very much want your cake and eat it. There is absolutely no reason that a fighter bay should be special. The Kealback is really a reconfigured T6, you win and lose things with that reconfiguration. Think of the Kealback as being in the same usage class as the Cobra, not the T6. The fighter is what makes the Kealback a viable ship, and a whole lot of fun. If you are looking for multi purpose ship that's a bit different then the kealback is it, however if you just want a trade ship then the T6 is better.

 

[goemon]

shieldstrength isn't that much about shield size, but about shield base value/modifier mainly (and hullmass).

for fun you can play around https://coriolis.edcd.io/ and fit a class 3A shield on an imperial courier and an Adder (which have the same hullmass).

as a class 4 shields optimal mass is already far beyond a keelbacks hullmass, you gain lass than 10% (21 MJ - half a railgun shot) equipping a 5A instead of a 4A.

a 4A on a keelback gives 209 MJ shields - on a cobra 124 MJ. both have the same hullmass. the keelback base shield modifier is just higher.

 

[tanner1ie]

In ED ship outfitting is all about compromise. You sound as if you very much want your cake and eat it. There is absolutely no reason that a fighter bay should be special. The Kealback is really a reconfigured T6, you win and loose things with that reconfiguration. Think of the Kealback as being in the same usage class as the Cobra, not the T6. The fighter is what makes the Kealback a viable ship, and a whole lot of fun. If you are looking for multi purpose ship that's a bit different then the kealback is it, however if you just want a trade ship then the T6 is better.

I'm used to having to compromise a bit, like generally having to choose between a fuel scoop and a docking computer, if i want to carry a discovery scanner and looking into adding a surface scanner to the discovery scanner, would likely mean not being able to carry either a scoop or docking computer etc.
Or on my Viper only carrying one 16 unit cargo container for the best combat build that can still carry a halfway decent amount of cargo.
Or on my only other complete built ship, after my Sidewinder and Cobra, i was initially planning to build a good, joint mining and passenger mission Adder, but found out that really, it'll only perform one of each role well at a time.

But in my current build of my Cobra which i really like, it's tough, fast and can still carry 32 units of cargo, but to build a tough combat built Keelback, using its' big selling point, its' fighter hanger, even after using two slots for cargo, it'd then, as i said only carry 24 units of cargo with barely an extra slot left.

For a ship, which noted is worse than the Type 6 in many ways, yet costs three times as much, you've to compromise too much to make its' one big feature work, for my liking :_ .

In the current game, general trading seems pretty pointless to me, so don't see any point in the Type 6, but really my main problem is, what's the point in the ship costing nearly ten times the Cobra, configuring it to carry fighters, at which point it can carry less cargo than the Cobra, when i can just use the Cobra on it's own.

Surely this ship should be at least able to perform haulage and passenger missions, while carrying a hanger and more cargo than the Cobra, while itself not being quite as good in direct combat or as fast as the Cobra and really for its' cost, it should be as good as the Type 6 even when carrying a hanger, if not better in some ways, mostly only being worse in that it carries maybe only three quarters the cargo of the 6, but still more than the Cobra :_ .

 

[tanner1ie]

shieldstrength isn't that much about shield size, but about shield base value/modifier mainly (and hullmass).

for fun you can play around https://coriolis.edcd.io/ and fit a class 3A shield on an imperial courier and an Adder (which have the same hullmass).

as a class 4 shields optimal mass is already far beyond a keelbacks hullmass, you gain lass than 10% (21 MJ - half a railgun shot) equipping a 5A instead of a 4A.

a 4A on a keelback gives 209 MJ shields - on a cobra 124 MJ. both have the same hullmass. the keelback base shield modifier is just higher.

Well surely more hit points are more hit points and particularly with a big target, the more hits it can take the longer it can last in a fight, which might make the difference in it, winning, simply surviving it 'til help arrives or safely existing combat...

Fundamentally this ship supposed to be able to survive passing through dangerous space or even winning fights, particularly with help from its' fighter, not have to run from most threats, like a regular freighter usually has to .

 

[Maymo]

Your Keelback has one less utility slot than the Type6? Take it back and demand a refund...

Seriously though I do agree about the internal modules, I think FD did this ship a great disservice by taking the extra class 4 module slot out. Once you start really playing around with it in outfitting you'll discover that in order to make it sufficient in any role that the fighter hanger needs to go....and a Keelback without its fighter is just an expensive and limited T6.

In my opinion the best build for a Keelback is as an armed VIP transport ship.

Class 5 Fighter Hanger
Class 5 Economy Cabin
Class 4 Shield

...and the passenger better not be going far because there's no room for a an adequate fuel scoop.

I enjoyed my Keelback but it's a frustrating little ship to outfit.

Another tip is to work out of one station (preferably a Hi Tech) so that after looking through the missions you can quickly repurpose the ship if needs be.

 

[tanner1ie]

Your Keelback has one less utility slot than the Type6? Take it back and demand a refund...

Seriously though I do agree about the internal modules, I think FD did this ship a great disservice by taking the extra class 4 module slot out. Once you start really playing around with it in outfitting you'll discover that in order to make it sufficient in any role that the fighter hanger needs to go....and a Keelback without its fighter is just an expensive and limited T6.

In my opinion the best build for a Keelback is as an armed VIP transport ship.

Class 5 Fighter Hanger
Class 5 Economy Cabin
Class 4 Shield

...and the passenger better not be going far because there's no room for a an adequate fuel scoop.

I enjoyed my Keelback but it's a frustrating little ship to outfit.

Another tip is to work out of one station (preferably a Hi Tech) so that after looking through the missions you can quickly repurpose the ship if needs be.

Thanks .

On passenger missions, i'm pretty sure from class four, you can carry business and first class passengers, why would you only use a class five economy cabin?
Also, you must have piddley cargo space with that set up... :_ .

 

[Maymo]

Thanks .

On passenger missions, i'm pretty sure from class four, you can carry business and first class passengers, why would you only use a class five economy cabin?

I find it opens up more mission variety, class 4 cabins are often too small. But if you can get away with it go for it...

 

[goemon]

Well surely more hit points are more hit points and particularly with a big target, the more hits it can take the longer it can last in a fight,

not really. you are winning 3 seconds of a small pulse laser fire, trading speed by the mass of a class 5 shieldgenerator as well as turning time. the trade off to equip a class 5 shieldgenerator isn't worth it.

meaning that with the ship *only* having two class five optional slots, since mostly people will usually want to put the best shield their ship can fit in such a slot...

yeah, many people make such basic mistakes, like fitting a class 6 shieldgenerator on an AspE, wondering why the don't get strong shields. "best" isn't always the most expensive, largest module in ED.

the keelback comes originally with a class 3 shield. in this case you have ~48T of cargo with a fighter bay. a class 4 shield, which is the best shield for the ship in terms of trade offs imho, allows 32T of cargo - enough for most cago missions.

the idea of the design was a q-ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship.

generally i only use it as a carrier to pilot fighters - as a trader, the t6 is the much better alternative, as its speed allows it to escape any pve encounter without any harm.

 

[tanner1ie]

I find it opens up more mission variety, class 4 cabins are often too small. But if you can get away with it go for it...

I'll certainly be testing this ship with at least class four, if not class five passenger cabins (after testing out various builds with the hanger since no other ship this size can use them), but in the last question, i was more so asking why you were only using a class five economy cabin?... .

 

[Wyaston Hypatia]

This is how I'd set up a Keelback as Scavenger/Rare runner/In-bubble explorer.
I see the main defence for the Keelback is from the fighter.

 

[Maymo]

I'll certainly be testing this ship with at least class four, if not class five passenger cabins (after testing out various builds with the hanger since no other ship this size can use them), but in the last question, i was more so asking why you were only using a class five economy cabin?... .

As oppose to a business/first? Again, mission variety and passenger space...
I find the class 5 economy to be the most reliable, if you turn up at a station and the passenger lounge is full of criminals or deep space explorers there's a better chance of finding a standard economy tourist mission that just want a quick hop a few systems away. But that's just me...

Keelback can also make a good salvage ship for working with and unlocking the engineers. Can fit it for combat with the fighter but still have some cargo space/SRV/collector limpet controller. You still get 30ly jumps with a good roll from Farseer.

 

[tanner1ie]

not really. you are winning 3 seconds of a small pulse laser fire, trading speed by the mass of a class 5 shieldgenerator as well as turning time. the trade off to equip a class 5 shieldgenerator isn't worth it.



yeah, many people make such basic mistakes, like fitting a class 6 shieldgenerator on an AspE, wondering why the don't get strong shields. "best" isn't always the most expensive, largest module in ED.

the keelback comes originally with a class 3 shield. in this case you have ~48T of cargo with a fighter bay. a class 4 shield, which is the best shield for the ship in terms of trade offs imho, allows 32T of cargo - enough for most cago missions.

the idea of the design was a q-ship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship.

generally i only use it as a carrier to pilot fighters - as a trader, the t6 is the much better alternative, as its speed allows it to escape any pve encounter without any harm.

.

Again on the Type 6 in the game right now, i can (or could see, but still see f e c k all point in it) see little point in using it.
For cargo hauling missions, i can often stack five or six of them in my 32 cargo slot Cobra set up.
(Ha, even the Irish, not really a curse word, f e c k , gets blocked by the swear filter - you can say f e c k, in front of anyone, while you wouldn't say f * * k in front of most people .)

Aside from wanting to check out its' fighter bay, i mostly bought the Keelback to make grinding Powerplay levels (from which i really only want the different factions' Prismatic shields and Pack Hound missiles etc) .
As i alluded to in earlier posts, I was sure that even with the fighter hanger and a combat set up, this "combat trader" ship, would at least carry 50 units of cargo.

But with the way the Keelback and general game is, i guess it means that i'll have to buy a Type 6 to just make the Powerplay grind bearable.
(I've only tried earning some Powerplay rank points last night but the only way i could find to do so was to deliver my factions' Sirrus trade offers - if there's an easier way to earn Powerplay ranks and points, someone please tell me... .)

As it is in the game overall, i'm disappointed how little and how lacking in complexity the actual trading is in this technically nearly three year old version of the game.
And i know i keep comparing this game to the X series in various threads, but it has proper trade and economy gameplay... even Rebel Galaxy has deeper trading than this game and its' is still way too shallow .

 

[krylite]

(Really though, with the ships current design and cost, i'd want it to have three class five slots and at least two class four slots. So after using one five for a shield, one for the hanger and one for 32 units of cargo, if it still had two class four slots, which i could add a 16 unit cargo container to, raising its' fully combat build, cargo carrying capacity to 48 units and still have an extra class four slot left available for various other tasks, i'd probably put a hull reinforcement module in it, but maybe a high class passenger cabin or a mining refinery, whatever, while still using its' existing small slots for scanner, a docking computer and/or fuel scoop etc .)

Um, a fighter bay is a big deal. It's certainly a more advanced module in terms required space and complexity which includes a repair facility and the ability to reconstitute multiple copies of a destroyed fighter, than to be simply included as a default ship feature such as the cargo scoop. The fighters can be a huge tactical advantage for PvE. A good NPC fighter pilot can take out a viper by itself plus they have powerful beam lasers and rapid fire plasma cannons as well as incredible maneuverability. They can also help with surface missions such as blasting skimmers, ground turrets, and power generators. Plus you can have someone else man the fighter with multicrew. Understandably, this sounds like your first higher grade ship above a cobra, but once you get a gunship or bigger type that can carry a fighter bay, you'll probably forget all about the gimmicky relatively smaller keelback real quick. From what you're asking for, the T-9 is probably more of what you're looking for in terms of having cargo and the cake too.

 

[tanner1ie]

Um, a fighter bay is a big deal. It's certainly a more advanced module in terms of complexity and required space to be a an included ship component. The fighters can be a huge tactical advantage for PvE. A good NPC fighter pilot can take out a viper by itself plus they have powerful beam lasers and rapid fire plasma cannons. Understandbly, this sounds like your first higher grade ship above a cobra, but once you get a gunship or bigger type that can carry a fighter bay, you'll forget about the gimmicky relatively smaller keelback real quick. From what you're asking for, the T-9 is probably what you're looking for in terms of having cargo and the cake too.

Thanks, i'll investigate the Type 9, EVENTUALLY - 76 million just to buy it and likely 100 million plus to upgrade it is a bit out of my price range right now... .

 

[Maymo]

Thanks, i'll investigate the Type 9, EVENTUALLY - 76 million just to buy it and likely 100 million plus to upgrade it is a bit out of my price range right now... .

Not sure what kind of engineer access you currently have, but one can attain midshipmen rank with the Feds pretty easily these days and the Dropship is a brilliant armed mission runner and a very cool looking vessel. You'll need a well engineered FSD and Farseer can sort your thrusters out as well.

The really nice thing about the Dropship and it's variants (FAS & Gunship) is that all the core internals are the same. It's like one big project as you slowly finance each module and scavenge parts to engineer them into something great. The modules never get wasted or forgotten because they can go straight into the next ship. Ensign rank is easily doable through normal gameplay, you're unlikely to feel the grind...

The Dropship is an absolute BEAST if you turn it into a missile boat (4x medium seeker missiles/1x large beam laser), Cobra/Viper/Asp npc's are screwed after one salvo and it'll put the fear of god into anything else...

The FAS is often coined a 'Vulture on steroids' and to be honest it's a very accurate description.

The Gunship....I never made it this far to be honest (I wish I had), but by the time you can get a Gunship a little bird will have likely tempted you with a Python.

 

[tanner1ie]

Not sure what kind of engineer access you currently have, but one can attain midshipmen rank with the Feds pretty easily these days and the Dropship is a brilliant armed mission runner and a very cool looking vessel. You'll need a well engineered FSD and Farseer can sort your thrusters out as well.

The really nice thing about the Dropship and it's variants (FAS & Gunship) is that all the core internals are the same. It's like one big project as you slowly finance each module and scavenge parts to engineer them into something great. The modules never get wasted or forgotten because they can go straight into the next ship. Ensign rank is easily doable through normal gameplay, you're unlikely to feel the grind...

The Dropship is an absolute BEAST if you turn it into a missile boat (4x medium seeker missiles/1x large beam laser), Cobra/Viper/Asp npc's are screwed after one salvo and it'll put the fear of god into anything else...

The FAS is often coined a 'Vulture on steroids' and to be honest it's a very accurate description.

The Gunship....I never made it this far to be honest (I wish I had), but by the time you can get a Gunship a little bird will have likely tempted you with a Python.

Thanks .

While i've my best ranking with the Federation of any of the factions, i've still barely earned any reputation with them.
I think i'm only a recruit right now, but i'll certainly be checking out their ships when i can actually buy and afford them.

I just do the missions i feel like doing, i haven't been doing anything special to earn rank with the various factions, and get whatever rank i get that way. It just so happens i've been doing my business mostly in Federation space.

I know there are missions to earn ranks quickly by giving factions money or items, but i've no intention of doing that, i want them to pay me! .

Overall i'm planning to buy and fully upgrade every ship in the game which, i like the look of and is halfway different to the others, generally as soon as i find or can afford them.
I of course started in the Sidewinder, thought about getting the Eagle but at least for then and still now, i dismissed using it for then (and i'm not sure it'll every use it, if i ever earn enough Imperial rank to get the Imperial Eagle, which i've only really been earning with the kill warrant scanner so far) and jumped all the way up to a Cobra mark iii (which is still my main ship) .
Then i went back slightly to an Adder, which i've only used it for one long passenger mission. I then converted it to a mining ship, which i'm planning to use to get Engineer materials, though the Keelback or even a Type 6 might be a better choice for mining, but if i can get what i need with the Adder mining, i'll stick with it.
(I can't see much point in the Hauler when the Adder exists, though i'd like the Adder to be better.)

Then i got a Viper mark iv and i've use that a bit, doubt i'll bother getting the mark iii now i have the mark iv.
All those ships i've fully upgraded.

Most recently, i bought a Diamondback Explorer, but i've only half upgraded it, skipping the scout since it exists.

I'm unsure if i want the Dolphin, if as i believe its' only really bonus at this level of ships seems to be carrying luxury passengers, when any ship that has class four slots can carry economy, business or first class passengers, while i don't have enough money to buy a Vulture or Asp Explorer right now and won't think about getting them 'til i've upgraded my Diamondback Explorer and Keelback and possibly bought and upgraded a Dolphin and Type 6 first.

Lastly on ships before the Dropship, i can't see much point in buying the Asp Scout when the Explorer exists .

 

[Maymo]

Thanks .

While i've my best ranking with the Federation of any of the factions, i've still barely earned any reputation with them.
I think i'm only a recruit right now, but i'll certainly be checking out their ships when i can actually buy and afford them.

I just do the missions i feel like doing, i haven't been doing anything special to earn rank with the various factions, and get whatever rank i get that way. It just so happens i've been doing my business mostly in Federation space.

I know there are missions to earn ranks quickly by giving factions money or items, but i've no intention of doing that, i want them to pay me! .

Overall i'm planning to buy and fully upgrade every ship in the game which, i like the look of and is halfway different to the others, generally as soon as i find or can afford them.
I of course started in the Sidewinder, thought about getting the Eagle but at least for then and still now, i dismissed using it for then (and i'm not sure it'll every use it, if i ever earn enough Imperial rank to get the Imperial Eagle, which i've only really been earning with the kill warrant scanner so far) and jumped all the way up to a Cobra mark iii (which is still my main ship) .
Then i went back slightly to an Adder, which i've only used it for one long passenger mission. I then converted it to a mining ship, which i'm planning to use to get Engineer materials, though the Keelback or even a Type 6 might be a better choice for mining, but if i can get what i need with the Adder mining, i'll stick with it.
(I can't see much point in the Hauler when the Adder exists, though i'd like the Adder to be better.)

Then i got a Viper mark iv and i've use that a bit, doubt i'll bother getting the mark iii now i have the mark iv.
All those ships i've fully upgraded.

Most recently, i bought a Diamondback Explorer, but i've only half upgraded it, skipping the scout since it exists.

I'm unsure if i want the Dolphin, if as i believe its' only really bonus at this level of ships seems to be carrying luxury passengers, when any ship that has class four slots can carry economy, business or first class passengers, while i don't have enough money to buy a Vulture or Asp Explorer right now and won't think about getting them 'til i've upgraded my Diamondback Explorer and Keelback and possibly bought and upgraded a Dolphin and Type 6 first.

Lastly on ships before the Dropship, i can't see much point in buying the Asp Scout when the Explorer exists .

Ha! Well from what I've read you're still at that point in the game where everything is fun and experimental. Anything I'd have to say would likely spoil that for you so I won't...

............but I quickly have to say that the Hauler is an amazing ship when you spec it for pure jump range. Never discount the Hauler...

 

[ste]

Never tried the keelback, is it better than an asp? how much can it carry

 

[tanner1ie]

Ha! Well from what I've read you're still at that point in the game where everything is fun and experimental. Anything I'd have to say would likely spoil that for you so I won't...

............but I quickly have to say that the Hauler is an amazing ship when you spec it for pure jump range. Never discount the Hauler...

While i'm certainly new to and taking things slow in this game, i've got plenty of experience with building and equipping my own ships and indeed small fleets of ships, in Egosoft's X series.

While this game has several pluses over the X games, it's still lacking so many things i took for granted while playing it, i won't be happy 'til i this game does hopefully half the thing they do... .

(On some short term changes i'd like to see in this, which are basically all things that X games already does, see for example my post near the top of page six of the "demands" thread:- https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/366813-The-PS4-demands-list/page6 .)