Tiling, top 20 issues and John F Kennedy

So, in the top 20 issues, tiling planetary features (which really hurts exploring) has this comment:

"Tiling Planetary Features: Changing the way planets are generated signifies a huge undertaking, so we're still investigating this."

Unfortunately, since Sagittarius Eye magazine is on hiatus for the time being, my Editorial for this month will never see the light of day (if you didn't know, I'm one of the Chief Editors of the aforementioned publication, and for the last year or so have been writing the Editorial at the start of the podcast/magazine). I think the Editorial I wrote for the August edition is still very relevant, so I'm going to post it here. It's a plea to Frontier. In the magazine, we would have written it "in universe" (which with this subject matter is a challenge, we tend to use "Pilots' Federation" when we are talking about FDEV) - I've changed it to be "out of universe" so as to be a more understandable forum post, but other than that, it's what would have appeared in SAGI this month. I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears:

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Once again, this esteemed publication finds itself making an appeal to Frontier. The Odyssey era has certainly brought controversy, one of which is the eventual loss of access to the planets that allow hooning; more of this in our article about the subject.

There is optimism, at least in the mind of this writer. A recent set of updates has brought fixes and improvements with some of the issues that have been raised by commanders over the last couple of months, and Odyssey era ships are in a much better place than they were back in early June. Frontier Developments has also acknowledged the situation with repeating planetary features, revealing that these issues are in the top five most important reported to them by commanders. While they don’t directly address activities such as hooning, they have stated that they are currently actively working on one of the issues (hoonable landscapes) and are actively investigating another that’s very important to the exploration community (repeating terrain patterns).

The latter they have revealed to be “a very significant technical challenge”, and at the time of writing, they did not have a workable solution. At Sagittarius Eye, we can only implore Frontier Developments to grasp this challenge and not give up because it is difficult. Already, Distant Worlds 3 has been postponed indefinitely primarily due to this issue, and it would be a great shame if the end of the Horizons era also brought to a close the era of ambitious expeditions with rosters numbering in the hundreds or thousands. To quote John F. Kennedy, “We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard”. Frontier Developments has already invoked the name of Neil Armstrong: let’s hope they also have the spirit of the NASA engineers who solved the hard problems which Kennedy alluded to, as the “Armstrong moment” simply cannot exist without all the hard engineering problems being solved.

-- Mack Winston, editor, Sagittarius Eye magazine

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I truly hope that when Sagittarius Eye magazine returns, we'll be reporting the preparation of events like Distant Worlds 3, and the genuine "Armstrong moment", when we can step out on something unique. From personal experience, having just done the Apollo 15 Expedition mostly in Odyssey, the problem for explorers isn't merely repeating patterns on a single planet, but the sense of déjà vu you get whenever you approach a new planet, and realise you've seen that vaguely Italy shaped ridge three times today already on three other planets. To be fair, Odyssey looks great when you're below 1000m altitude - but we also spend a lot of time from orbital cruise down to 1000m, and it would be a much more satisfying game experience if we didn't have that sense of déjà vu, something we didn't get while approaching a Horizons planet.

So please Frontier, choose to do this not because it's easy, but because it's hard, and will make Elite Dangerous: Odyssey stand out from the crowd. And from a commercial point of view, remember the amount of good, sustained and positive - and free! publicity that DW2 brought. A big expedition like DW3 would do it again, bringing new players, new cosmetic sales, and new enthusiasm about what should be David Braben's magnum opus.
 
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I'm just going to play devil's advocate here, but as I mentioned in another thread I'm 1000 jumps into a trip (post Update 6) and have only found one clear example of tiling so far. I'm not the type to meticulously scrutineer every landable body in every system though. Would it be an honest assessment to say this only regularly affects the most dedicated of explorers?
 
Seeing "Italy" repeated 3 times in a thousand light years, you could be fair in that assessment. Repeated patterns on the same planet, not so much, they are quite visible even to casuals. They become really obvious after doing a DSS probe on a planet and you have the DSS heat map. Now if you're largely jonking and not doing much DSS scanning then you won't see them, but in that case you're not really visiting many planets either. Post update 7, this will actually rise to the #1 position in the issue tracker, so it's clearly important to a lot of people -- and it's ahead in votes over FPS (frames per second) issues!

Any explorer who enjoys landing on planets though will see it sooner or later, and will be getting that déjà vu feeling sooner or later even if they aren't consciously recognising particular features.
 
Seeing "Italy" repeated 3 times in a thousand light years, you could be fair in that assessment. Repeated patterns on the same planet, not so much, they are quite visible even to casuals. They become really obvious after doing a DSS probe on a planet and you have the DSS heat map. Now if you're largely jonking and not doing much DSS scanning then you won't see them, but in that case you're not really visiting many planets either. Post update 7, this will actually rise to the #1 position in the issue tracker, so it's clearly important to a lot of people -- and it's ahead in votes over FPS (frames per second) issues!

Any explorer who enjoys landing on planets though will see it sooner or later, and will be getting that déjà vu feeling sooner or later even if they aren't consciously recognising particular features.
Yes, prior to Update 6 I did see it very rarely in the DSS "heat map". As for my current post Update 6 trip, I do map all the landable TC bodies and the more interesting bodies with bio signals. I haven't seen a tiled heatmap so far (and I'm currently almost 2M into codex discoveries, so that's at least a handful of landings).
 
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I'm not a dedicated explorer, as of Odyssey, I haven't ventured far out of the bubble, but I do frequently visit planetary surfaces for no other reason than site seeing (or the odd material collection run) and I get the deja vu feeling often and see repeating tiles fairly often too, not on every planet of course, but there's a lot of it.

It's great that its on the list of top issues and in my opinion, whilst odyssey is still split from horizons and console release on pause, it's an ideal time to tackle the difficulties with it and contemplate a re-roll too, before pushing the tech out to the presumably wider base-game audience.
Once the client merge / console release happens, that's only going to make life more difficult and FDev would be even less likely to want to do a re-roll, if at all.
 
A real problem with the repeated tiles is not that you necessarily see it often, but you see it at all -- at least for many of us.

I had a physics teacher who would occasionally draw a dead mouse on your work. The explanation for the dead mouse was this: you wrote a great piece of work, pages of perfectly written equations, and perfectly described science, and then at the end of all these pages of goodness, you write one sentence which is just horribly wrong - so wrong it's not even wrong. It ruins the entire piece which up to then was inspiring work.

He likened it to this. Imagine you get one of those really nice ice cream cones, double scoop, the works. It's delicious. You are just coming to the bottom of the cone and you encounter a dead mouse in the bottom. It completely ruins the entire experience even though 95% of it was an explosion of tasty pleasure.

The tiling features are just that: they are the dead mouse at the bottom of the ice cream cone. They might not happen all the time, but when they do they just completely break the illusion that you're a 34th century explorer, plying a new course in the Milky Way. The thing is Odyssey is gorgeous in many ways - and on the A15X I spent quite a lot of time on planetary surfaces, and found some really nice ones. But encountering tiling or a terrain pattern I knew I had seen before just kept shattering the illusion.
 
Any explorer who enjoys landing on planets though will see it sooner or later, and will be getting that déjà vu feeling sooner or later even if they aren't consciously recognising particular features.
I've only noticed a single, obviously tiled, body in around 30KLy since Update 6 - and have been visiting a few bodies (and scanning complete systems) along the way.

Yes, they obviously exist, no - I don't look for them, and no, they don't bother me as much as others.

I made very few landings in Horizons in the past year as the bodies, in general, are boring and pretty much the same, with only some odd outliers breaking the monotony. Even the favourite "star crater" exists in Horizons and isn't specific to Odyssey...

But, to clarify, I'm not a 'True Explorer" 🍻

I just fly around to places that interest me, over a million LY to date, more to do too!
 
The tiling features are just that: they are the dead mouse at the bottom of the ice cream cone. They might not happen all the time, but when they do they just completely break the illusion that you're a 34th century explorer, plying a new course in the Milky Way. The thing is Odyssey is gorgeous in many ways - and on the A15X I spent quite a lot of time on planetary surfaces, and found some really nice ones. But encountering tiling or a terrain pattern I knew I had seen before just kept shattering the illusion.
I've got an eye for patterns and I hate to see them too, but there's a lot more that shatters my immersion (pre-Odyssey even) than just the tiling issue.
 
I'm just going to play devil's advocate here, but as I mentioned in another thread I'm 1000 jumps into a trip (post Update 6) and have only found one clear example of tiling so far. I'm not the type to meticulously scrutineer every landable body in every system though. Would it be an honest assessment to say this only regularly affects the most dedicated of explorers?

In Odyssey, every landable planet uses terrain tiles that are repeated many times. The tiles are at many different scales. The smaller tiles, those that might only be a few hundred metres, might be repeated hundreds or thousands of times on a single planet, especially in the biome regions. The larger tiles, some continent sized, might be repeated a few times or dozens of times.

Sometimes the tiles are very noticeable. Sometimes not, especially when many layers of terrain/biomes are present. And of course it's a very personal thing - some people see the repeats immediately.

Winston's post above is spot on, worthy of repeating:
A real problem with the repeated tiles is not that you necessarily see it often, but you see it at all -- at least for many of us.

The tiling features are just that: they are the dead mouse at the bottom of the ice cream cone. They might not happen all the time, but when they do they just completely break the illusion that you're a 34th century explorer, plying a new course in the Milky Way. The thing is Odyssey is gorgeous in many ways - and on the A15X I spent quite a lot of time on planetary surfaces, and found some really nice ones. But encountering tiling or a terrain pattern I knew I had seen before just kept shattering the illusion.
 
The one-million-dollar-question is whether this is even possible with the existing technology. Read Merkir's post above to understand why this is by no means a given.

I don't think it is possible with the technology as it stands: using "pre baked" height maps was an architectural decision, and as such requires an architectural change.

That's not to say it's not possible, but it's not just tweaking an algorithm: it's something that will require game architecture changes to do (while preserving the things that they wanted to do with this architectural change in the first place). The fundamental problem with the architecture as it stands right now is that there are only a few Slartibartfasts, but billions of planets, and human minds are very good at pattern matching.

The architectural change that will be required will almost certainly require adding an ability to procedurally generate heightmaps according to the geome rules (at a guess!) and integrating this into the current system, without jeapordising the future plans that the current architecture was made for.

I'm confident that Frontier have the talent to do this, even though it's hard. It's whether they've got the fortitude to see it through; hopefully the amount of player passion about the quality of landable planets will encourage them to do these things over the protests of the bean counters. Fortunately I think one of the chief bean counters (David Braben, still the largest single shareholder in Frontier) is probably with us on this.
 
I'm just going to play devil's advocate here, but as I mentioned in another thread I'm 1000 jumps into a trip (post Update 6) and have only found one clear example of tiling so far. I'm not the type to meticulously scrutineer every landable body in every system though. Would it be an honest assessment to say this only regularly affects the most dedicated of explorers?
I did exploration for the past 6-7 days, and I had numerous case of tiling, and rocks are repeated a lot to.


It is EXTREMELY common (read pretty much guaranteed) for any kind of rough terrain at mid altitude (about the time you start gliding and pretty much all the way to when it stops).
 
The architectural change that will be required will almost certainly require adding an ability to procedurally generate heightmaps according to the geome rules (at a guess!) and integrating this into the current system, without jeapordising the future plans that the current architecture was made for.
Don't forget the requirement for the generation to be real-time (or a few seconds at most) on decade-old PCs/consoles.

It's no good them making a full-power procedural generator for planetary terrain (and they clearly have one already, because it's not like they hand-placed every vertex on the existing tiles) if it takes an hour (or even a minute) to generate each planet.
 
I don't think it is possible with the technology as it stands: using "pre baked" height maps was an architectural decision, and as such requires an architectural change.

Only way to really do it without people noticing the repeats, is to make some kind of very clever algorithm (that's also highly performant...) that can modify those pre made assets to the point that, that triangle one you see, can sometimes be morphed into an almost flat, slightly curved line.

It's er... a bit of a challenge to do in real time.
 
I did exploration for the past 6-7 days, and I had numerous case of tiling, and rocks are repeated a lot to.


It is EXTREMELY common (read pretty much guaranteed) for any kind of rough terrain at mid altitude (about the time you start gliding and pretty much all the way to when it stops).
I've been away since Update 6 and so far I've been seeing two types of planets: the ugly pixelated ones (which I happened to be sent to a lot on missions in the bubble) and the ones with more fluent terrain and geometrical patterns. The latter surely have some sort of repetition going on, but not nearly as bad as you are experiencing.
 
Only way to really do it without people noticing the repeats, is to make some kind of very clever algorithm (that's also highly performant...) that can modify those pre made assets to the point that, that triangle one you see, can sometimes be morphed into an almost flat, slightly curved line.

It's er... a bit of a challenge to do in real time.
I don't know enough about the stamps, but if I had to guess, I'd say they are just alphas (black/white images) scaled and rotated. In texturing software like Substance Painter it's easy to break up repetition by adding a warp filter. The warping could be way more intense when two stamps are close to each other to make unique new patterns.
 
I'm still at a loss why they switched from the old functional system that didn't kill performance to a different less performant system that has these issues.

I presume they had their reasons. I'd like to hear from someone on the planetary team the reason why they did it. At least then we could understand the why of it.
 
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