To all complaining traders and pirates: adapt to asymmetric gameplay!

[NumptyScrub]

Isn't this the whole core of the discussion? What would you consider "fair"? If a trader could fight as well as a pirate? What downside would being a trader have, then? No weakness whatsoever?

There are no classes in E: D. I did not select "explorer" when I created my character, and I'm sure you never had a class selection screen either, so there is literally no difference between a "trader" and a "pirate" except for player choice at any given moment. "Traders" are simply a player who has at this moment bought some cargo with the intent to fly it to somewhere to sell at a profit. 20 tonnes of rare goods in a PvP fit Python (piloted by someone with an Elite combat rank and over 2000 CMDR kills to their name) is a "trader", so you tell me, what downside or weakness does this "trader" have that ensures they cannot fight as well as a "pirate"?

Also note that because E: D does not have classes, there is literally nothing stopping you from looking for piracy victims whilst simultaneously doing a rare run (trading) and scanning down planets for profit (exploring). 3 playstyles at once for 3 times the profit! It is literally figuratively made of win! Choosing to limit yourself to piracy only is not the developers problem, because the game supports you mixing and matching whenever you like.

Every time I see this discussion, I see people (deliberately?) pigeonhole themselves into a single playstyle, and then argue that that one playstyle has something that needs changing. You are not limited to any playstyle, and anything that other players can take advantage of, you can take advantage of too. Balance discussions have to take into account that there are no restrictions on switching playstyle moment to moment; right now you might be pirating a juicy mark, but 10 minutes from now you'll be trading those stolen goods to a black market, and possibly selling exploration data on the side. For part of your game time, you are the "trader" you want to nerf, as you cart your ill-gotten gains back to a friendly station; if someone interdicts you, are you happy to be the "trader" in that relationship, with all the drawbacks you think traders should have after being interdicted?

 

[deathfragger]

Here is the problem.....it is a game, a program....code......or in other words, it is dumb as a rock..........everything you do has to be hard coded, and I will out think any computer going....even being a bit dim myself, I will outthink something that is predictable....so.....
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Lets say FD nerf the traders boost so they can get away only 50% of the time........someone, somewhere will find another "exploit"........maybe, let interdiction happen, count to 10, deploy chaff and ECM, run......and then they can get away 100% of the time, again.....so you will then come back here and once again ask that it be nerfed, and you will keep doing it, until they are just stationary targets for you to blow up.......but, by then there will be no more traders in open........
..

FD have created a good and proper Catch-22 for themselves..........Pirates want things to Pirate, but can anyone show me a video game where people are willing to play defenceless Victims?...........who would want to do that?.....I read the forums, lots of people dropping their traders and just getting in to fighters...........Mining is dead, no one cares.......Exploreers cant sell their data properly....and run the risk of losing a months work due to insane NPCs and PvPers attacking everything in space......including empty ships..................which may be fun for them, but is ruining another players game...........
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I dont play games to get frustrated, or to "Roll Play" being a Victim........so, like others, I have found the fun things in the game I DO enjoy doing, that dont leave me angry or resentful at the end of the day....Blowing stuff up at RES, USS etc...........nice and relaxing, and all I need from a game........its just meant to be a bit of fun right?.....................sorry, you are asking people to be frustrated and your victims for YOUR fun..........not going to happen. WHich is good for Solo players, as maybe FD will put some effort in to the core...........rather than try and balance out this unwinable Catch-22.....
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PIRACY MAY BE DYING AS A CAREER........but the changes they are asking for are killing every other "career" in the game........except killing pirates.........catch-22 death spiral......lol.
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It is sad really, for me anyway.....when I first loaded up Elite, I was amazed at what I saw and what I THOUGHT the possibillities were......but, its just turning in to another generic FPS 1v1 death match shooter......but with Battle Ships vs Tug Boats............yawns.........

well said that man !!
the game is basically flawed in many ways i for one didn't want the grind for a better ship is hard and the weeks of hard work can be over in seconds
mechanics are all wrong interdiction by a pirate in a small ship THE mass could never interdiction a large Lakon Type 7 Imperial Clipper Lakon Type 9 Anaconda etc
the police vs pirate bounty's are all wrong if you destory at T9 @ Cost 76,555,842 CR + cargo ! your bounty is 400CR is a joke ETC the insurance on a T9 is 3,827,792CR
yea yea yea if you can't pay the insurance don't take the ship out etc but if u have no choice etc and interdiction leaves you with with nothing all i hear is ( it is working fine. Interdiction is part of the game. Pure traders just need to cope with it.)
in a real sim a SMALL SHIPS MASS COULD NEVER PULL A LARGE SHIP OUT OF CRUISE
SO what is ED a sim ? ..........pve ? or a pvp game ?

 

[Der_Richter]

Try Iraq or Afganistan. Good money to be made there but the risks are higher than an M25 run.

Exactly my point. In federated systems trading should be protected. In lawless systems with weak authority (a.k.a. anarchy) the risk should be high. The rewards could be set higher for trading in those systems, with some custom missions etc...

 

[Arubeto]

There are no classes in E: D. I did not select "explorer" when I created my character, and I'm sure you never had a class selection screen either, so there is literally no difference between a "trader" and a "pirate" except for player choice at any given moment. "Traders" are simply a player who has at this moment bought some cargo with the intent to fly it to somewhere to sell at a profit. 20 tonnes of rare goods in a PvP fit Python (piloted by someone with an Elite combat rank and over 2000 CMDR kills to their name) is a "trader", so you tell me, what downside or weakness does this "trader" have that ensures they cannot fight as well as a "pirate"?

Also note that because E: D does not have classes, there is literally nothing stopping you from looking for piracy victims whilst simultaneously doing a rare run (trading) and scanning down planets for profit (exploring). 3 playstyles at once for 3 times the profit! It is literally figuratively made of win! Choosing to limit yourself to piracy only is not the developers problem, because the game supports you mixing and matching whenever you like.

Every time I see this discussion, I see people (deliberately?) pigeonhole themselves into a single playstyle, and then argue that that one playstyle has something that needs changing. You are not limited to any playstyle, and anything that other players can take advantage of, you can take advantage of too. Balance discussions have to take into account that there are no restrictions on switching playstyle moment to moment; right now you might be pirating a juicy mark, but 10 minutes from now you'll be trading those stolen goods to a black market, and possibly selling exploration data on the side. For part of your game time, you are the "trader" you want to nerf, as you cart your ill-gotten gains back to a friendly station; if someone interdicts you, are you happy to be the "trader" in that relationship, with all the drawbacks you think traders should have after being interdicted?

Yes, you are right and I am totally aware of the fact that you don't have to limit yourself to one playstyle. I already corrected my wording here:

Well, yes, I was referring to the pirate and trading ships, not the commanders piloting them. So, what I meant was that if you have two players with similar skills, shouldn't the pirate in his supposedly dedicated fighter win in a dogfight most of times? Sim Maker made it sound as if it was unfair that his trading vessel wasn't as good a fighter as some pirate Eagle/Viper/whatever the pirate is using and didn't have any choice but running away.

I was referring to dedicated trading ships like the laking 6/7/9/etc. vs dedicated combat ships like the eagle/viper/etc.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

If you increase the FSD cool down after a "throttled-back" interdiction, you remove the ability for the trader to effect an escape, thus debasing your "asymmetrical" argument.

There will still be a way to escape, the trader will just have to win the interdiction. Skipping the interdiction mini game should not be the best choice for a trader. If the interdiction mini game is unfair for traders, that should be looked at. We shouldn't be forced to keep a broken mechanic to circumvent it.

 

[Jex =TE=]

I was posting for brevity, can you not see beyond that? Would you like me to flowchart every action and reaction?

Yes and that's precisely what I'm doing. If you're going to guarantee a set reaction to an action then it become boring and predictable and you're just going through the motions.

 

[tagos]

There will still be a way to escape, the trader will just have to win the interdiction. Skipping the interdiction mini game should not be the best choice for a trader. If the interdiction mini game is unfair for traders, that should be looked at. We shouldn't be forced to keep a broken mechanic to circumvent it.

That's impossible for a large ship against a fighter with a good interdiction module. It can literally be over in 3 seconds. It's a rigged game not a test of skill, unless the pirate is really poor.

 

[Jex =TE=]

This isn't actually correct at all. System Security Level makes a really big difference. Testing and collecting stats right now.

That's great - remember I'm talking only about PVP encounters, not when you're attacking the AI.

 

[tagos]

Totally agree. What this all comes down to in the end is the need of balancing the pirate / trader encounters (by increasing the FSD cooldown after submission at least a little bit, for example), not some fundamental flaw in the game mechanic. Which - in turn - I see as a confirmation of my initial assessment that apart from this balancing, the game mechanic works as intended and players should now what to expect from it!

As i've said elsewhere. If you think you're a pirate and you are using gimballed weapons - you're not a pirate and it's no wonder you're finding it hard. Make it a 15 or 30 second cooldown and they'll still complain about chaff making their weapons miss for 10 of those seconds and then they'll start complaining about shield strengths and then shield cells again.

What they should be doing is learning how to shoot straight with rails and cannons. Hit someone with those and you stand a good chance of crippling a ship in the first few seconds of a fight. I've had that happen to me. Interdiction. Boom, thrusters malfunctioning.

 

[Jex =TE=]

People say this game is Elite Dangerous so traders should suck it up. When being a pirate stops being the risk-free Easy Mode (as you get to pick your targets and the best armed and shielded freighter is powerless against a fighter and you get to buy your way out of consequences cheaply) we can use this argument.

Piracy and trading both need to be 'dangerous' and carry the same burden of consequences.

And piracy needs to be much more rewarding.

I think piracy needs to put more of a bounty on your head to begin with and traders need to be able to hire escorts (in fact, this should have been in the game to begin with). If you have an escort option (either NPC or Player) then that levels the playing field (until wings hits of course).

In previous games in a big trade ship you could get your butt handed to you easily. Of course back then, there were no forums to whine about it - you just dealt with it and reloaded your last save. Oh yeah - we can't do that in this game because the promised "offline" mode wasn't a promise at all but a lie.

 

[Jex =TE=]

And what have we got now? Traders that demand god mode? What will be the difference? I'd rather be left with a few traders who relise that this is the game, than what we have now, at least its somthing to build upon.

The sooner traders relise that FD is not going to cater 100% to them the better, then a decision can be made, I dont think the game will be devoid of human traders, I really do not.

As a pro gamer (hehe, let's get a veiled insult in first, eh...) the thought of being attacked as a trader makes me want to play the game that right now I'm finding boring and I hardly log in. It's like I read the forums, get excited by a fantasy picture I build up in my head and then log in and I'm ..."meh" reality hits and I'll do a trade run again then log.

Being hunted can be a lot of fun and challenge. Working out contingency plans to get out of trouble, plans to avoid trouble, etc should be a traders first goal. Have there even been any threads on how to avoid pirates on these forums?

Some players relish challenge and some want the easiest route possible.

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I've stated this before and i state it again... Compare to the real world: Is it common for people driving trucks to be shot in the face and killed and get their cargo stolen? Does this happen once every minute on international highways? No. So why should it happen in civilized systems in ED? I would think that in the future, civilized systems would definitely fight this behaviour.

This is what needs to happen. Being a pirate and murderer should mean that you are shunned by the community, disallowed to dock in ANY civilized system and subject to constant harrassment by powerful AI agencies trying to blow you up. Being a pirate should basically be a choice to stand outside of society and civilized life, and be part of underground activity. So in ED terms, you should be banned in all non-anarchy systems.

This is realistic, while not nerfing the pirates in any way other than revoking their ability to be accepted citizens.

Exactly this!

And following my previous post it works in reverse. Pirates that relish challenge would love the risk factor of trying to sneak into a system to pirate whilst the "easy mode" guys want things to stay as they are.

 

[Jex =TE=]

This entire thread sounds like the conversation FD should have had before they made the game....

 

[marktay]

There are intelligent pirates out there (if that isn't an oxymoron). There is one who streams regularly, and is almost always successful because he understands how to be a pirate in E: D. He has the right ship and knows how mass-lock works, he knows how to scan and chose cargo that is worthwhile the laborious cargo scooping after, he has a smart load-out and is a good pilot. He only asks for a proportion of the traders cargo, and will only kill the trader if they do not comply. Harsh maybe, but fair within the confines of the game. His sarcastic farewell at the end of each encounter infuriates but at least his victim gets away with his ship, life and most of his cargo. He practices 'sustainable pirating'


Like trading and bounty-hunting, I suspect he has spent a lot of time getting to this level of competence, like any successful professional. I think that when people come into this game, they see pirating as glamorous and easy money and embark without the right ship, skills or knowledge to be successful, and through frustration end up murderers or whiners about traders having it all their own way. Piracy is a game-style in E: D and I think that the universe is enriched because they are there. But the successful pirates have worked on their skills and honed their art, and like the silent majority of traders and bounty hunters are off playing the game and having fun rather than complaining here.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

lol okay. You obviously don't or have not ever pirated for a significant length of time. The payout ratio is anything but one hundred percent. And I'm a nice pirate! (I know this because I have been complimented/told I am by numerous traders). It is far, far less than that.

There are lots of traders out there that have no way to quantify risk/odds/bravery/lunacy who push even the nicest pirates to the breaking point.

I don't mind the challenge. In fact, it is what I LOVE about piracy. It is hard... damn hard. It is essentially the hardest way to make money in the game. But it is very rewarding and fun trying to pull off. But going something about the instant (I win!) button would be nice--even if it were simply changing how masslock works slightly.

In fact, I can deal with the FSD submission exploit and do all night long. A properly outfitted pirate ship is built for high alpha for quick burst damage and maximum effect in a short time. What I don't want to see is piracy made "easy." That'd be boring. But I don't want to see consequences removed from traders taking huge risks trying to run when the lowest risk, easiest thing they could do is drop some cargo as they are asked after being properly scanned (and a good pirate does not open fire until scanning and then communicating their demands with style).

The consequences are essential to the gameplay working. Remove them and there's no motivation to do anything at all other than trade and run (or likewise just kill everything). And right now, piracy gets the majority of the consequences so they don't need any more.

The majority of traders responding to these threads have stated they don't mind dropping a few tonnes of cargo, assuming the RP is there. It's when pirating and murder become homogeneous without the RP.