Trading is not imbalanced, but trading tools are

[CaptainSodom]

I have noticed a very common misconception on the forums: that trading has a much higher credit return on invested time and effort than other forms of gameplay. This imbalance is grossly overstated, and the main reason for trading having such high ROI (Return On Investment) compared to other money-making schemes is the use external trading tools.

I used trading tools in beta, and after a while I realized that while they were great in increasing my credits, they also made every other way to gain credits look unattractive. It also turned the game into a spreadsheet in space - main reason why I quit EvE in disgust years ago.

If you don't use said tools, the ROI from trading is much closer to that of mining and bounty hunting and mission running. I've been doing mostly mining and exploration, as I've struggled to find decent trade routes by myself at the edges of habited space where I'm active. There's more variety, too, as sometimes I outfit my ship for combat and go mission running and exploring instead - all combinations bring roughly the same credit gain per hour of game time.

I'm not one to say that people should play the game my way. But I am saying that don't blame FD for "imbalanced" credit gain mechanics if you are electing to use external tools which bring the imbalance. If you use such tools and are motivated by credits, you are almost guaranteed to find trading the only viable way to play the game. If you don't, you will likely find more variety, especially before you can fly and outfit the bigger ships.

 

[Marikc0]

A lot of these people are using crowd-sourced tools and putting little effort of their own into it. On the other hand, I actually visit stations and manually type in commodity information and it costs me a lot of time and allows me to feel like I'm earning the credits that I make. I feel that I get back what I put in and I don't intend on sharing that information so that others can benefit from my hard work.

 

[Kadius]

Trading will always be a "spreadsheet" in space or otherwise, its a mechanic and that's usually the most efficient way to utilize it

 

[Caiburn]

Give me ingame tools with usability that are non-misleading, and I'll happily not ALT-TAB out to an external tool.

Until that happens I'll happily EliteOCR stations that I dock at and upload that to EDDN and Slopey.

I don't even trade much. Explorer/Bounties is my forte.

 

[RatPatrol]

right because I want the tedium of pen and paper writing out 25 commodities w/Buy & Sell Prices ......


Accounting in 80 column ledgers went the way of the dodo in the 90's with the Rise of Machines you game on ......

 

[iFred]

The opposite is the case!

Tools are ruining the ROI. There are plenty of 1700/1700-1/2-jump-routes out there that will fit a single commanders need for days, but tools are ruining this. Only thing you need is to identifiy the Top-5-trading-goods and how the Demand/Supply-numbers are generated (one hint: it has nothing to do with the LEVEL (high/med/low).

Its ok to look into the tools to determine how the whole system is working, but for sharing data -> no way. It ruins everything.

Just my 2 cents though. A good trader will NEVER share his route into the public. It just doesnt make sense.

 

[Protoplasmic traveler]

If it was easier to get the ship I want (the Lakon 9 and others) then I would not use crowd sourcing tools but without the tool I would be playing this game for many months before I got to where it is I am aiming. Sure I have a an Asp with millions worth of upgrades and the Asp is the ship I will probably go Galaxy exploring in eventually, I want the big ships too with their expensive upgrades simply because they are there and I want them no matter what.

3rd party tools help me in that effort and I do not feel like I am cheating, I feel like I am logging into a galactic internet where everyone shares their knowledge - and where trolls share their mischief.

 

[Alric]

It's true that you don't need to use them - I don't - and that many choices people have made do seem to detract from their enjoyment of the game (like grinding repeatedly through different phases of beta).

So no don't blame FD for your own choice to use these tools. But it is a weakness of the game that the trading simulation is crude enough that all the jackpots in the game are trade routes. It would make sense to me that traders could make good dependable income, while pirates or explorers might struggle to make a living, but can always hope for that one big find that makes a lot of money. But in fact, the one big find that matters in game is a good trade route. That will make you millions. The most stunning discovery for an explorer, or the best ever mark for a pirate pales by comparison.

A more vibrant and dynamic economy would also make the trade tools less dependable.

 

[Unpleasant]

I can trade 200 units of wine, make 3.9k profit on the whole trade... Worth the risk? Nah. Doesn't even pay for my fuel.

 

[Drunk Si]

Trading ain't for me but I once filled my cargo bay with a ton of stuff in high supply at a station and took it to a station a few systems away that apparently it was exported to. If I had sold it at said system I would have done so at a loss. I can 100% see why the people that do enjoy trading use external tools to go about it.

 

[HeavyGroovez]

I dont use the tools but im certainly not against anyone using them as I doubt they are showing the best routes.

I cant believe that anybody is going to publish their top prices.

Im all for helping people out with info and frequently do but i definitely wouldnt share my trade routes.

It takes a lot of time to find the best routes and it would be madness to just give them away and let the masses descend on them and smash them into oblivion.

 

[Protoplasmic traveler]

The in game tools are terrible, at best, they tell you where the commodities are being traded but they do not give you a price list about profit and loss and as such, you are forced to use outside tools because the alternative is hell.
That alternative is to jump to that system with the commodities in the hold and find out the hard way by docking which is not going to be fun because trading work is not fun anyway and most of us only do it because we actually want to make money as quickly as possible. Trading in itself is like work.

Even Asda and Tesco have a system, the vacuum tube communications systems you see snaking from their cashier terminals and yet in the elite universe – nope dock to find out your trade data or go mine something instead.
To get back to the point, the trade mechanic in itself is archaic and only just fit for purpose because we are able to jump light-years in a matter of seconds and yet we are unable to determine how much a product will sell within that system unless we actually go there and dock.

SO because we have to and not because we want to, we dock and check the databases through what is obviously a landline that works the moment you touch down because in the elite universe there is no wireless communications other than technologies that enable us to scan in detail whatever is in someone else’s hold.

These little details are inconsistent game design to my mind but I put up with it because nothing I will say will make any difference and I have to suck it up and dock to check trade data - ridiculous
The explanation I have come across is that there is no faster than light communication in the elite universe and that is fine but to counter such a problem would it not have been feasible to create a system of small-unmanned communications drones that jump from system, logging, offloading, and uploading commodity data to the station databases?

If a little sidewinder can be fitted with a FSD then a small-unmanned data drone can be fitted with an FSD. More work in regards to trade data in whom is selling to whom, at what price and all brought up within a screen inside our ships it would be very useful but no, we have to be content with multi-coloured ribbons in the galactic map menu, thrown in like an afterthought.

For a game highly focused on trading (and fighting and exploring) the trading aspect is a barebones affair and in serious need of an overhaul.

For me the 3^rd party data mining tools are realistic in such a context because having no recent market data on products in a nearby system is not realistic at all.

 

[jamotide]

I have noticed a very common misconception on the forums: that trading has a much higher credit return on invested time and effort than other forms of gameplay. This imbalance is grossly overstated, and the main reason for trading having such high ROI (Return On Investment) compared to other money-making schemes is the use external trading tools.

So report them. The EULA forbids data collecting tools in sections 3d and 4.5

 

[SteelPriest]

Contribute to the tools ( I use Thrudd's) and treat them like a shared notebook and they're fun and fulfilling to use in and of themselves. I started using Thrudd's because my own google doc was messy and hard to use in comparison.

As far as I'm concerned, the player collaboration I get out of sharing prices (far more interaction than i can get with the game on its own), makes Elite more fun and rewarding - so why feel bad?

If you are some hardcore roleplayer and feel bad, consider whether or not a budding space entrepreneur would or wouldn't do everything they could to maximise returns....

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

The in game tools are terrible, at best, they tell you where the commodities are being traded but they do not give you a price list about profit and loss and as such, you are forced to use outside tools because the alternative is hell.
That alternative is to jump to that system with the commodities in the hold and find out the hard way by docking which is not going to be fun because trading work is not fun anyway and most of us only do it because we actually want to make money as quickly as possible. Trading in itself is like work.

Thanks for saying out loud what others try to diffuse with detailed, useless argumentation

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Contribute to the tools ( I use Thrudd's) and treat them like a shared notebook and they're fun and fulfilling to use in and of themselves. I started using Thrudd's because my own google doc was messy and hard to use in comparison.

As far as I'm concerned, the player collaboration I get out of sharing prices (far more interaction than i can get with the game on its own), makes Elite more fun and rewarding - so why feel bad?

If you are some hardcore roleplayer and feel bad, consider whether or not a budding space entrepreneur would or wouldn't do everything they could to maximise returns....

There's no problem using shared info...you can buy information of pricing of nearby systems rather cheap in-game too.

Problem is that people go on using these tools and then complains that there's nothing to do in game as other activities take longer time to collect credits and if you are completetionist, then no way you will try bounty hunting just because it doesn't pay that much.

Complainers just can't have it both ways - either they admit that trading tools skew gameplay of trading and in result same people complain about game being too easy and grindy, or they should shut up about it.

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

right because I want the tedium of pen and paper writing out 25 commodities w/Buy & Sell Prices ......


Accounting in 80 column ledgers went the way of the dodo in the 90's with the Rise of Machines you game on ......

if you learn the system types and get to know the commodities you don't need a pen and paper, if you are at an extraction system that has gold for sale at 500 credits below galactic average it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out there is money to be made.

my current trade route takes in 3 stations in 2 systems and i make around 2,300 per tonne for every trip round them, plus what i make on missions. i have never nor will i ever use a trading tool but i can still make good money with a little bit of thought.

 

[Whiterose]

I use the galaxy map, see where stuff is being imported/exported, its the only trading tool I need, apart from logic of not trying to sell coals to Newcastle.

 

[CaptainSodom]

It's true that you don't need to use them - I don't - and that many choices people have made do seem to detract from their enjoyment of the game (like grinding repeatedly through different phases of beta).

So no don't blame FD for your own choice to use these tools. But it is a weakness of the game that the trading simulation is crude enough that all the jackpots in the game are trade routes. It would make sense to me that traders could make good dependable income, while pirates or explorers might struggle to make a living, but can always hope for that one big find that makes a lot of money. But in fact, the one big find that matters in game is a good trade route. That will make you millions. The most stunning discovery for an explorer, or the best ever mark for a pirate pales by comparison.

A more vibrant and dynamic economy would also make the trade tools less dependable.

Agree completely. It would be nice if pirating or mining would have jackpot options, just like Rare Goods in trading. You might stumble upon Rare Goods on your pirating run or mine them.

Contribute to the tools ( I use Thrudd's) and treat them like a shared notebook and they're fun and fulfilling to use in and of themselves. I started using Thrudd's because my own google doc was messy and hard to use in comparison.

As far as I'm concerned, the player collaboration I get out of sharing prices (far more interaction than i can get with the game on its own), makes Elite more fun and rewarding - so why feel bad?

If you are some hardcore roleplayer and feel bad, consider whether or not a budding space entrepreneur would or wouldn't do everything they could to maximise returns....

I didn't say anyone should feel bad, it's your game, you play it the way you want to. Just saying that use of trading tools will skew the different ways to play the game more and more in favor of trading if you're playing it for credits, the more crowd-funded tools you use. Since it is the only viable way for those players to play the game, no wonder they feel burned out after two weeks.

Yes, there is a lot of room for improvement in the game, but please keep in mind that the game was not designed with such powerful tools in mind. I do feel the current in-game tools are poor and misleading, but if and when they are improved to better serve the players, trading needs to be re-balanced with them in mind.

 

[SteelPriest]

I never played the previous elites, but weren't they mainly about trading too?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

if you learn the system types and get to know the commodities you don't need a pen and paper, if you are at an extraction system that has gold for sale at 500 credits below galactic average it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out there is money to be made.

my current trade route takes in 3 stations in 2 systems and i make around 2,300 per tonne for every trip round them, plus what i make on missions. i have never nor will i ever use a trading tool but i can still make good money with a little bit of thought.

Do you suggest to use...head for such a grindy task? What else do you will suggest, get diploma and get a real job?

To be frank, yeah, all these complains and using tools....it's such a nonsense. It's cheating, basically. Not enjoying intellectual challenge, but wanting that shiny what's end of the road.