Trading, the only way to afford big ships? Was this intended?

[Rockspider]

Most of the bigger ships are for trading. The bigger the ship the more cargo. Even in the real world trade is where the money is.

I have a perfect viper for bounty hunting and would not use another ship for it.

 

[Bembledak]

That's true I suppose, assumption is the mother of all f'ups!

 

[CMDR i Tetsuo]

I like Kornelius, I sub to his channel and he puts out good content, but he is a meta-player who views the game like it was the matrix, all numbers and charts and formula for maximising everything, he even justifies pulling the "undock, exit-game, enter-game spawn outside station" exploit just because it saves him 40 seconds flight time on trade runs.
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This is in total opposition to the way I play which is just to play for the sake of flying around in the amazing game-space FD have created. Would I love to own an Anaconda? Sure! But I'm not going to min-max the game (sucking all the enjoyment out IMHO) just to reach one. I plan on playing this game for many years, so the fact some ships may take me months of play time to reach I see that as something to enjoy later down the line.

 

[Panzer]

It can't be intentional. Even a game as... base as Freelancer, had in its unmodded state a number of valid ways of maintaining the top equipment. Salvaging wrecks, mining/scavenging, combat missions of various difficulty and ultimately trade too, though much simpler, since prices were constant.

Eddy can do so much better if it only took a moment to expand existing mining/mission mechanics.

 

[drukqs]

i've been doin 550000 Cr roughly every 15min (Over 2 Million credits per hour) over the last week doin a simple 2 stops (3 jumps i still don't have class A FSD) trade run in a Type 7 so please don't start that conversation that "is not that bad you can do it in other professions":

There is NO WAY you can do this kind of profit on other professions, they are not even in the same galatic league. Absolutely impossible and way way way unbalanced, specially for something that is so easy and low risk.

Frontier DOES know this for sometime already and after thinking about the subject and how to at least ad-hoc solve it for now (factorizing gains on exploring and combat and raising "good asteroids" chance on mining) it's a 15min min worktime for a programmer to dump it into the game.

And yet you keep on having this game that if you want to get REAL money and get bigger and better ships you have to do one thing: trade Palladium to one side and Performance Enhancers / Progenitor Cells / Consumer Tech to the other side, or do Rare trade runs, into oblivion: over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Oh yes, and for the mother of god, put volume and not only weight when calculating the cargo space ocupation, so only those 3 or 4 commodities are important and others are left apart: 1 Ton of Gold should ocupy much less space in the cargo rack then a 1 ton of Grain.

 

[Chemicalgibbon]

There seems to be this pervasive idea that solo traders only ever trade. Trade in solo, go open for bounty hunting and action. Trade in solo and you can afford to throw away eagles, vipers and cobras learning to fly in combat.

Trading in solo also doesn't stop you from flying FA off and learning to maneuver.

You'll have a bit of adjustment when you meet real players with functional loadouts, but you can easily afford the lessons if you need them.

That's actually exactly what I'm doing myself.

When I feel burnt out from trading, I hop in my Viper and pop into open play and hit the Nav points and resource sites to mix it up a bit. Helps to prevent things becoming too stale.

 

[BlackReign]

Agreed, Trading is the only way to get the big boys.

- Bounty hunting should be improved in difficulty and payouts. Elite, and dangerous npcs should be very difficult to beat.
- Exploration needs better payouts. It's boring, time consuming and unattractive from an economic perspective.

I do agree that big ships should be very expensive, but there needs to be more lucrative ways of making money.

 

[Rockspider]

i've been doin 550000 Cr roughly every 15min (Over 2 Million credits per hour) over the last week doin a simple 2 stops (3 jumps i still don't have class A FSD) trade run in a Type 7 so please don't start that conversation that "is not that bad you can do it in other professions":

There is NO WAY you can do this kind of profit on other professions, they are not even in the same galatic league. Absolutely impossible and way way way unbalanced, specially for something that is so easy and low risk.

Yes so unbalanced any player can do it? lol

 

[CMDR i Tetsuo]

Agreed, Trading is the only way to get the big boys.

- Bounty hunting should be improved in difficulty and payouts. Elite, and dangerous npcs should be very difficult to beat.
- Exploration needs better payouts. It's boring, time consuming and unattractive from an economic perspective.

I do agree that big ships should be very expensive, but there needs to be more lucrative ways of making money.

Exploration pays out big time if you make the right discoveries and for me that seems correct. No one cares if you've found 20 Ice planets, they're 10 a penny. Find some rare stars and earth like worlds though and you're laughing to the bank. Increasing the pay-outs just to be in line with other professions seems very "gamey" to me, and whilst yes Elite is a "game" in most senses it definitely sits more on the sim side of the line.
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I know this is getting trotted out a lot at the moment but that's because it's true, trading is only the best profession if your only aim is to earn credits. I play with 3 other guys one of which owns a Python and has 15mil in the bank, all he does all day is fly the same trade route over and over. I own an Adder and rarely have more than 300k in my pocket and yet all I hear from my trader friend is, "I'm getting bored with this now" whereas I've not had a dull moment....

 

[bassman]

Just watched another excellent video by Kornelius where he explains the cost of purchasing and fitting an Anaconda. Watching this it dawned on me "I will never own this ship or one like it" To earn the 300 million to 1 billion required will take me from 6 to 20 years (real time). That's playing nightly as a bounty hunter.

I dont think it is intended, rather thats just the way it has worked out, as far as I can tell FD intended all professions to be viable. I guess the problem is that scaling the other professions is difficult - you need squadrons of anacondas roaming about (for bounty hunters) and lots of traders carrying super valuable cargo (for pirates) etc.

 

[Zylark]

Whilst trading is lucrative and scales well, it is also mind-numbingly boring doing the same route over and over and over. It is a massive grind-fest of galactic proportions. So as far as I am concerned, hunting down the largest profit margin and then milking it until my brain melts is not an option. Sure, I'll trade, but Ill mix it up with missions to do this, that and the other thing. Not to mention bounty-hunting now and again, and when feeling particularly evil, go visit a well populated independent system in my Asp and make some free room in the cargo-hold of an unfortunate Type 6 or two.

But yes, the other professions should scale better. I got no real good ideas in regards to bounty-hunting, but with regards to Exploring and Mining I do have one.

How about when exploring, and you've sold your exploration data, that every time any other player buys system information for a system you've mapped, you get a royalty. If you're the only one that have explored that particular system, you get the full amount the player pays. If you're one of two, you get 50%, and so on right down to a minimum trickle of 1%. Now, it won't generate huge amounts in the start - but as more players join the game, more traffic is generated and more venture further out, and not least a player have explored plenty of systems, credits should come in at a steady pace. To cap it, so that one do not earn royalties for ever, perhaps let the royalty expire after say 1 month.

Same for mining. Say you've discovered a pristine field, you're the first to go there and mine it. Anyone coming after, will pay you a little royalty. Say 5% of sales from that field, with the same 1 month expiration.

 

[Dissentient]

and lots of traders carrying super valuable cargo (for pirates) etc.

Even if all traders were carrying palladium and always unconditionally dropped enough for you to fill the whole cargo hold, you would earn very little compared to traders, simply because of how much time it takes to scoop cargo and sell it to the station.

 

[Trader Pat]

Another one on this subject

First to be said, I am a trader, doing some BH on the side.

Trading is good IMHO at the moment. And Bounty hunting too. Please bear with me and look at the Return On Investment of both activities:

Trading with a T-6 means about 5 to7 Mill Cr in ship costs, with a cargo value of 110T x whatever Cr. Typically I'll deal in high value commodities like beryllium and palladium. For example I'll take my present milk run. Value one way with 110T of Beryllium is roughly 770,000Cr, return with Palladium is 1.26Mill Cr. A round trip is ~ 2Mill Cr cargo value. Profit is about 330,000 Cr, roughly 3000Cr/T. ROI in this case is 3.67%. A bit less if the operating costs are included. And this is based on a very good run.

Bounty hunting with a nicely appointed Cobra means about 3.5 to 4 Mill Cr in ship costs, no cargo investment but operating costs are higher. Let's say in the 25K to 30K Cr for a 1/2 hour of BH at an Anarchy Nav Beacon chasing NPCs. These costs include repairs, ammo and fuel for a fairly good pilot. The intake is in the 250K Cr range, maybe a bit more. It is a mixed bag of bounties which are redeemable in the 3 different main factions. ROI in this case is 5.5% at the minimum. It is even better for Viper or Eagle, much less so for costlier ships.

I cannot see really why trading is deemed so out of balance, IMHO. Now the main difference is that the income on BH does not scale with the ship size, but through this simple example it is patent that both activities are valid. It is then a matter of purely personal choice to go hunting in a 100+Mill Cr Python, not ED supposedly flawed mechanics.

Just my $0.02.... Please keep the flaming to the minimum

Fly safe!

 

[saagri]

As someone who finally got an Anaconda, I wept when I saw the prices for modules when I realized the path to get a fully upgraded 'Conda had just started.

 

[rdizz]

As someone who finally got an Anaconda, I wept when I saw the prices for modules when I realized the path to get a fully upgraded 'Conda had just started.

Better start trading.

 

[Bad_Wolf]

Old problem of some silent trader grinding billions for months and then buying the biggest ship around only to go and shoot pirates. Except this time, grinding can be done in solo mode!

Modes really should be separate.

But yeah, i agree with you. Trading is too good compared to other jobs. Don't make me start on exploring...

I thought that's what PvP'ers wanted? "Good Fights". Especially if you're talking about someone who's been solo for months and suddenly appears with a half a billion credit ship. That's like a rich kid showing up to a drag race in his Dad's Bentley.

I'm not saying you're wrong though. I'm just thinking that when that day comes, there's going to be lots of rich traders, many with no combat experience... Sounds like a target rich environment.

Personally, I've been trading in solo since launch day but played open all through beta 3 and forward. I play solo right now because I only have an hour or two to play after I get home from work and just want to relax. I have my ASP and I'm probably staying there. I may build a nice combat ship for off nights and weekends. I believe people worry too much about how other people are playing the game and then assign ridiculous preconceptions on their reasons for playing that way.

I'm no care bear. I've played most every flight sim since the first Microsoft Flight on an Apple 2E and I was the scourge of the skies in Air Warrior 2&3.
I have absolutely no desire to grind for years to get any ship but I am willing to put in the time to get what I want. Trading is currently the way to do that. People will take the path of least resistance to get what they want. It doesn't matter if it's trading, combat, or spinning around a brass pole.

When I first played EvE I remember seeing the price of ships and thinking, "There's no damn way..." Till I could run Lvl 4 missions of course. Give Elite some time to settle in. There's a lot of things coming down the pipes and I know the Dev's aren't sleeping. Since Elite isn't subscription based we already paid our price of admission, worst case scenario people just stop playing.

 

[saagri]

Better start trading.

It never ended x_x

 

[zaccheus44]

First to be said, I am a trader, doing some BH on the side.

Trading is good IMHO at the moment. And Bounty hunting too. Please bear with me and look at the Return On Investment of both activities:

Trading with a T-6 means about 5 to7 Mill Cr in ship costs, with a cargo value of 110T x whatever Cr. Typically I'll deal in high value commodities like beryllium and palladium. For example I'll take my present milk run. Value one way with 110T of Beryllium is roughly 770,000Cr, return with Palladium is 1.26Mill Cr. A round trip is ~ 2Mill Cr cargo value. Profit is about 330,000 Cr, roughly 3000Cr/T. ROI in this case is 3.67%. A bit less if the operating costs are included. And this is based on a very good run.

Bounty hunting with a nicely appointed Cobra means about 3.5 to 4 Mill Cr in ship costs, no cargo investment but operating costs are higher. Let's say in the 25K to 30K Cr for a 1/2 hour of BH at an Anarchy Nav Beacon chasing NPCs. These costs include repairs, ammo and fuel for a fairly good pilot. The intake is in the 250K Cr range, maybe a bit more. It is a mixed bag of bounties which are redeemable in the 3 different main factions. ROI in this case is 5.5% at the minimum. It is even better for Viper or Eagle, much less so for costlier ships.

I cannot see really why trading is deemed so out of balance, IMHO. Now the main difference is that the income on BH does not scale with the ship size, but through this simple example it is patent that both activities are valid. It is then a matter of purely personal choice to go hunting in a 100+Mill Cr Python, not ED supposedly flawed mechanics.

Just my $0.02.... Please keep the flaming to the minimum

Fly safe!

My problem with it is that in premium beta at least the devs made it clear they didn't want a path of least resistance. As it stands trading is clearly easy mode. It needs a lot of work

 

[Trader Pat]

My problem with it is that in premium beta at least the devs made it clear they didn't want a path of least resistance. As it stands trading is clearly easy mode. It needs a lot of work

I kinda see your point though disagreeing with trading seen a path of least resistance. I have been also on ED since Beta.

Trading in OP with some serious pirates around is not the easy way to make Cr by the bushel. I do play Solo (and let's not open that beaten-to-death discussion) while trading and go OP for other activities when I can afford to do so. Once again it is a personal choice and I think ED is great to offer such a range in expressing our personal choices.

Is there some fine tuning to be done? Yes, for sure. Is it as flawed as some would say? I have difficulty to think so, with facts to prove it.

 

[Armchair]

First to be said, I am a trader, doing some BH on the side.

Trading is good IMHO at the moment. And Bounty hunting too. Please bear with me and look at the Return On Investment of both activities:

Trading with a T-6 means about 5 to7 Mill Cr in ship costs, with a cargo value of 110T x whatever Cr. Typically I'll deal in high value commodities like beryllium and palladium. For example I'll take my present milk run. Value one way with 110T of Beryllium is roughly 770,000Cr, return with Palladium is 1.26Mill Cr. A round trip is ~ 2Mill Cr cargo value. Profit is about 330,000 Cr, roughly 3000Cr/T. ROI in this case is 3.67%. A bit less if the operating costs are included. And this is based on a very good run.

Bounty hunting with a nicely appointed Cobra means about 3.5 to 4 Mill Cr in ship costs, no cargo investment but operating costs are higher. Let's say in the 25K to 30K Cr for a 1/2 hour of BH at an Anarchy Nav Beacon chasing NPCs. These costs include repairs, ammo and fuel for a fairly good pilot. The intake is in the 250K Cr range, maybe a bit more. It is a mixed bag of bounties which are redeemable in the 3 different main factions. ROI in this case is 5.5% at the minimum. It is even better for Viper or Eagle, much less so for costlier ships.

I cannot see really why trading is deemed so out of balance, IMHO. Now the main difference is that the income on BH does not scale with the ship size, but through this simple example it is patent that both activities are valid. It is then a matter of purely personal choice to go hunting in a 100+Mill Cr Python, not ED supposedly flawed mechanics.

Just my $0.02.... Please keep the flaming to the minimum

Fly safe!

They aren't looking at ROI. They're just looking at profit per hour and lamenting that their bounty hunting in a Viper does not compare with the profits of a multimillion credit cargo vessel that spends it's days hauling millions of credits worth of cargo. however this is an unfair comparison.

Rare goods skew things based on how constant and reliable they are, but the profits that can be earned with bounty hunting are very comparable with the profits that can be earned with a cargo ship (and cargo) that costs approximately the same as the combatant. They shouldn't be comparing their Viper to the type series. They should be comparing the vipers profits with the adder and cobra's trading profits.

The problem isn't with trading. Trading is one of the few things that scales properly. The problem lies with other professions.

Exploration data should become more valuable the further you travel from sol. Combatants should have increasingly more challenging and rewarding conflicts to take part in (hopefully galactic politics and increasing military tensions will lead to this).

The poor cruise ship captains have it worst of all. They have these shiny orcas but nothing to do with them.