Trying to get a player-controlled faction...

[iiMStevo]

So I've just spent the past few days clearing out a system that my group wants to use as their new home system as most are new players and have no affiliations to the various systems the older players have.
New group, new system and all.

I managed to get an NPC faction into retreat. Submitted the group. Submitted the request to get my faction created.
Everything's looking great.
Now, the application just got rejected "another player faction is already present in your system" - as of 1 hour ago.
This other player faction instantly joined our new home system with 8.7% influence, with an active civil war state pending election - OK, maybe we were just unlucky to free up a slot for them instead - it happens, right?

Nope... they're also engaged in active wars elsewhere. I don't know how or why these guys have made it into our new system. One has currently got a status of "Total victory" 3-0 as of 1 hour ago (They haven't won this yet though as the asset is still the former controlling faction). The other war is still 0-0 as of 9 hours ago, and again there's no indication this has ended..
Maybe I've completely misinterpreted this, but I thought BGS prevented expansion if the faction were in active wars in any system?

Can someone please clear this up for me?
Is there no way to prevent expansion anymore with war states?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

but I thought BGS prevented expansion if the faction were in active wars in any system?

This hasn't been true since the 3.3 release. It's even possible (though rare) to be in expansion and war in the same system, nowadays.

 

[FrogsFriend]

As I understand it wars stopped blocking expansion back when multiple states were introduced.

 

[goemon]

This hasn't been true since the 3.3 release. It's even possible (though rare) to be in expansion and war in the same system, nowadays.

do you have a recent (post-fc) exampel of an expansion going pending, from a system, where the expanding faction was in conflict?

countering the community managers answer at the AMA
"Paul_Crowther said:
A faction's eligible for expansion if it's over 75% influence in any given system that doesn't have a conflict active within it. A faction can only have one expansion at once, no matter how many systems its present in. If multiple systems are eligible, then it chooses the one with the highest happiness."

 

[iiMStevo]

do you have a recent (post-fc) exampel of an expansion going pending, from a system, where the expanding faction was in conflict?

countering the community managers answer at the AMA
"Paul_Crowther said:
A faction's eligible for expansion if it's over 75% influence in any given system that doesn't have a conflict active within it. A faction can only have one expansion at once, no matter how many systems its present in. If multiple systems are eligible, then it chooses the one with the highest happiness."

This definitely isn't the case:

INARA

The community site for Elite: Dangerous, Starfield, Kingdom Come: Deliverance with the game databases, information, gaming news and other handy content...

inara.cz

Three systems just exited expansion. Nearly all others in expansion. One in both expansion and Civil war.

So... how do I kick these guys out of my system, if there's no way to block their expansion? My group aren't that well developed in terms of money and ships, so they can't go toe to toe with an already established player faction, and equally they want something that's "theirs".

 

[Ian Doncaster]

So... how do I kick these guys out of my system, if there's no way to block their expansion?

1) Same way you kicked the NPC faction out, and hope they don't care. Present in 14, controlling in 2, they might not actually want the system or be able to fight your group off.
2) Approach diplomatically and ask if they wouldn't mind retreating to let your faction be founded. Offer some help in one of their other systems as an exchange. Hope that it works out and you gain a nearby friend.
3) Lock two of the NPC factions in the system you want in a conflict at >45% influence each. Time it right and they won't be able to avoid retreating because there literally won't be enough free influence in the system for them to ever exceed 2.5%. This is about the only way to kick out a supported faction, and you still need decent BGS action superiority to pull it off, but it's basically unstoppable if you can line it up right.

do you have a recent (post-fc) exampel of an expansion going pending, from a system, where the expanding faction was in conflict?

I meant it was possible to have active Expansion and active War in the same system at once. A few recent examples of that here and there, where a faction has reached 75% and then been attacked.

Getting started on a pending Expansion while a War is active would require such an unlikely combination of events in the first place (coup war that's been delayed from the usual 60% threshold to >75% by another conflict in the system, with the crossover from <75% to >75% having extremely precise timing relative to the coup) that whether or not it's possible is I think entirely theoretical, or at least the subject of science experiments rather than political activity.

 

[goemon]

This definitely isn't the case:

INARA

The community site for Elite: Dangerous, Starfield, Kingdom Come: Deliverance with the game databases, information, gaming news and other handy content...

inara.cz

Three systems just exited expansion. Nearly all others in expansion. One in both expansion and Civil war.

the station news should tell, from which system they expanded from. that's the expansion-source-system.

the faction state expansion is cross-system faction wide.

so, while it reads as "expansion" in a system with war/civil war, their expansion is actually down to one system.

i'm looking for an exampel of
a) an expansion going pending in one specific "source-of-expansion"-system
while
b) the faction itself being in conflict in THAT source-of-expansion system.

So... how do I kick these guys out of my system, if there's no way to block their expansion? My group aren't that well developed in terms of money and ships, so they can't go toe to toe with an already established player faction, and equally they want something that's "theirs".

- check the station news. if it is an invasion, which faction news will tell, you simply have to win the conflict, and loosing faction leaves.

- and - get used to the fact if you intend to play the bgs, that there is no such thing as "my system". there isn't even something like "your faction". every player can back or oppose any faction, as well as play in any system.

 

[goemon]

I meant it was possible to have active Expansion and active War in the same system at once.

yes. this was obvious to me - as a pending expansion from a system can't be stopped goping active.
i'm just wondering of the commuity managers mentioned something that academical ("in the case you got a coup-conflict pending, you won't get expansion pending above 75%") - or how to make sense if any out of their comment.

 

[goemon]

Everything's looking great.
Now, the application just got rejected "another player faction is already present in your system" - as of 1 hour ago.

doesn't include that process to name two systems (an alternative one) for such cases?

"Please input the preferred system that you would like your minor faction to be placed in. We recommend suggesting additional systems in case your preferred system is unavailable. "

 

[goemon]

1) Same way you kicked the NPC faction out, and hope they don't care. Present in 14, controlling in 2, they might not actually want the system or be able to fight your group off.

.. but there is a cooldown for retreat after a new expansion into a system, isn't it?

 

[iiMStevo]

doesn't include that process to name two systems (an alternative one) for such cases?

"Please input the preferred system that you would like your minor faction to be placed in. We recommend suggesting additional systems in case your preferred system is unavailable. "

Yeah, but then it'd be a pointless task doing that if the name of the group has the system name in it lol. I'm just going to have to keep retrying to create the minor faction, and hope that it actually works. In the meantime the lads in the group can develop their ships to help clear the station.

 

[FrogsFriend]

Looking at the history of those pesky Freelancers over the last year or more (Illawarra Freelancers - Elite BGS ), you can see that all of their expansions have come from just one system, LTT 7488. And they don't appear to make any effort to develop the systems they expand into. Either they are being actively supported in their home system to keep their Inf high, but they don't care about the resulting expansions, or perhaps the system is popular with players for some other reason and that faction is just benefiting from whatever activity those players are up to.

Either way you should be able to kick them back out and then have another go at getting in before the slot gets filled again.
The people's glorious struggle to overcome all opposition and gain self-determination continues! Good luck

 

[Ian Doncaster]

yes. this was obvious to me - as a pending expansion from a system can't be stopped goping active.
i'm just wondering of the commuity managers mentioned something that academical ("in the case you got a coup-conflict pending, you won't get expansion pending above 75%") - or how to make sense if any out of their comment.

It did seem a highly unusual case to need to restrict, definitely. Though I have see one report of not being able to get expansion Pending while Infrastructure Failure was active ... that could have been a direct conflict of states or it could just have been caused by the IF's infrastructure penalty dropping them below 75%, then pending expansion being checked, then influence from player activity being applied.

.. but there is a cooldown for retreat after a new expansion into a system, isn't it?

10 days, yes. Good point.

 

[iiMStevo]

10 days, yes. Good point.

oh so I have to wait 10 days before I can even attempt to eject them? Even if they’re below 2.5%?

If that is the case, surely there should be some kind of warning that a faction is due to expand into a system? Like I say, I got completely blindsided by this. I did the initial graft getting a faction removed all ready for my groups faction to settle in, and then all of a sudden there’s this other faction in there, with 8.6% influence and it all seemingly happened at the same point. As the server ticked over at 19:10GMT I got the email a few minutes afterwards with the rejection (which would suggest that it would have been implemented at that tick if there wasn’t the player faction expanding into this system).

 

[Ian Doncaster]

oh so I have to wait 10 days before I can even attempt to eject them? Even if they’re below 2.5%?

Yes - push them down now anyway, in about ten days the Retreat will start, in another week or so they'll be gone.

If that is the case, surely there should be some kind of warning that a faction is due to expand into a system?

Not really practical, since where an expansion goes isn't determined until it happens.

You can get a big pile of BGS data together and monitor hundreds of systems and try to guess where they'll go, but ultimately you can end up in a situation where faction A is going to expand into system X, but before they can faction B expands there instead, and then faction A expands to system Y, and because you weren't watching faction B (because they were fifty LY away) you don't see it coming. Or, as in your case, you think a faction is going to go one way, but then the day before they're due to expand a Retreat goes through somewhere else and opens up a better target.

Even the really large and planned BGS groups occasionally get surprised by expansions this way.

 

[goemon]

again, the question:

- what does (did) station news say from where they have expanded?

as soon as an expansion goes pending, it is also said in station news (where that faction is present) from where this expansion is going to happen.

it is not hard to do an educated guess on their expansion target from it (even as ian D. has pointed out, this can change at any tick, as expansion target is determined at the tick it is happening).

- as you can't really counter an expansion into a system, once it is pending from a system (you can't fill up the slots with another faction, if you don't have already one expanding to it before that faction), i don't see a good reason to give a warning in all systems in expansion range of an expanding system.

it looks a bit weird to me to squabble with the current system for a very special case:
1. player group requests minor faction.
2. player group refuses to add alternative systems, despite FDEV recommending doing so.
3. player group chooses system, which already has maximum number of 7 factions, despite "Systems that contain one or more of the following will be rejected: ... more than a combined total of seven player and/or NPC factions to a system".
4. player group chooses system in standard expansion range of an expanding player group.
5. player group forces a minor faction into retreat to make space for their player faction (despite 3...).
6. faction expands to free slot of system. only the last point is down to the current mechanic.

looking at this mess i recommend the following:

• take it as an experience. you have learned a ton and made something really hard happening, a retreat.
• check station news and watch out for expansions.
• revoke the old application and

a) resubmit a new faction with no system name in title, 2 alternative systems, all with 6 or less factions and no expanding player group in 20 ly range.
or b) create a squadron backing any of Balanus minor factions and back them.

 

[iiMStevo]

again, the question:

- what does (did) station news say from where they have expanded?

as soon as an expansion goes pending, it is also said in station news (where that faction is present) from where this expansion is going to happen.

it is not hard to do an educated guess on their expansion target from it (even as ian D. has pointed out, this can change at any tick, as expansion target is determined at the tick it is happening).

- as you can't really counter an expansion into a system, once it is pending from a system (you can't fill up the slots with another faction, if you don't have already one expanding to it before that faction), i don't see a good reason to give a warning in all systems in expansion range of an expanding system.

it looks a bit weird to me to squabble with the current system for a very special case:
1. player group requests minor faction.
2. player group refuses to add alternative systems, despite FDEV recommending doing so.
3. player group chooses system, which already has maximum number of 7 factions, despite "Systems that contain one or more of the following will be rejected: ... more than a combined total of seven player and/or NPC factions to a system".
4. player group chooses system in standard expansion range of an expanding player group.
5. player group forces a minor faction into retreat to make space for their player faction (despite 3...).
6. faction expands to free slot of system. only the last point is down to the current mechanic.

looking at this mess i recommend the following:

• take it as an experience. you have learned a ton and made something really hard happening, a retreat.
• check station news and watch out for expansions.
• revoke the old application and

a) resubmit a new faction with no system name in title, 2 alternative systems, all with 6 or less factions and no expanding player group in 20 ly range.
or b) create a squadron backing any of Balanus minor factions and back them.

The station news said nothing in advance of the expansion occurring. Afterwards the system was the LTT 7488 system, which was the only one above 75%, despite three expansions occurring in the past 3 days.

I wasn't expecting another player faction to expand into this system. The one I had my eye on has several systems in a state of expansion. So now I seemingly need to time my player faction creation to be at the point where this player faction retreats... and the expansions have ended on the other two systems containing player factions.

...there really shouldn't be a blocker on creating a player faction when another player faction exists in that system, especially when it isn't their home system (I can understand the need to block it if it were their home system though).

Oh... and I mean by a warning, as in... it tells you "This system is being expanded into by X faction in X days."
This should be the "warm up" phase of the expansion. This should allow systems enough time to counter an expansion and prevent the expansion happening in that system. If that occurs, the "warm up" moves onto the next system, with the same timer attached.
If every warm up is cancelled at the end of the 7 day expansion period (or whatever the maximum duration is), then expansion is failed (not just invested).

With no way to prevent an expansion, and no way to remove said newly expanded factions for 10 days, and in those 10 days that faction can expand again, and again, and again... then that leaves an exceptionally short number of systems that new player groups can found player factions in.

 

[goemon]

The station news said nothing in advance of the expansion occurring.

the station news in LTT 7488 system?
station news only mentions factions being present in system. the expanding system wasn't present in that system you choose, so obviously there was nothing in the station news until they expanded.
but there should have been something in the station news in any system they have been present in. Was there or wasn't there?

there really shouldn't be a blocker on creating a player faction when another player faction exists in that system

i think it is not bad that there is.
a) to avoid player groups getting in player factions just to counter/oppose/"harass" player groups (the same reason, why you can't get a federal faction into an imperial system). if you are up for that kind of game, choose a system close by and expand.
b) as there usually is a lot of time between requesting a player faction, and that faction going live, putting in a player faction in a system another player faction is present, might negate other players work without any effort.

that said, i think what IS missing is a mechanism for player factions to cease, if not played any longer. there are sooo many player group factions ingame not played any longer at all. beside those, which are not played in BGS terms for other reasons (for exampel an explorer group, where the explorers are simply not around).

 

[iiMStevo]

the station news in LTT 7488 system?
station news only mentions factions being present in system. the expanding system wasn't present in that system you choose, so obviously there was nothing in the station news until they expanded.
but there should have been something in the station news in any system they have been present in. Was there or wasn't there?

I got blindsided by their expansion... how would I know if there was information in their news a few days prior to them being in my system? lol

 

[Ian Doncaster]

...there really shouldn't be a blocker on creating a player faction when another player faction exists in that system, especially when it isn't their home system (I can understand the need to block it if it were their home system though).

At the moment PMFs are present in just over 14000 systems and control just under 10000 systems.

Making whichever of the 4000 difference which aren't PMF homesystems where they never got as far as control eligible for new PMFs to settle is I expect a change which will have to come eventually, as the space in the bubble inexorably runs out...