UAs, Barnacles & other mysteries Thread 7 - The Canonn

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I'm still not sure what the angle of periapsis is actually supposed to be.
I've looked it up in Wikipedia and I still don't understand it!

Take a body, describe a plane through that body, for simplicity sake let's make 90 degrees off the axis of rotation. So if it had no tilt this is effectively the equator. Define some notion of 'up' with respect to that body (white plane in the picture below)

Take another body in orbit around that body and incline it's orbit so it's not parallel to the rotational plane of the body it's orbiting. That orbital plane is the yellow plane in the picture below. For half of the orbit the 2nd body will be 'climbing' (toward up on the body it's orbiting) and for half it will be 'descending'. Where it cross this plane and is climbing is the "ascending" node.
300px-Orbit1.svg.png

There's a point in the orbit where it is at closest approach to the body it's orbiting, that's periapsis.

The angle of periapsis is the angle from the ascending node to the periapsis. If the angle is less than 180 then the periapsisis 'above' the equator of the object it's orbiting, if the angle is greater than 180 then it's passed through the descending node (the point where it crosses the first plane and is now descending) so periapsis is effectively below the equator. (The descending node is not drawn above but it's opposite the ascending node).

Merope5c has an angle of periapsis of 138 degrees. This means the closest approach to Merope5 is 138 degrees from where it crosses Merope5's rotational plane. Oddly enough that happens in about 24 hours.

Obviously I'm simply paraphrasing the wikipedia arcticle but maybe it helped.

(part of the confusion is folks are trying to hammer that angle into some meaning about the surface of Merope5c and describing an angle from there, it has zero to do with the surface of Nerope 5c, it describes its orbit around Merope5.)
 
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I have to agree, I was working on the beginnings of this theory, it seems that aslong as the proportions of the sphere are mathematically correct we can then take the exact angles, what we need is a task force of guys to send out to places of interest so we can confirm/deny step by step.

I also like someone's comparison to the navigation compass in our ship. Its trying to tell us this is a destination point.
 
BOOOYAAH!,4 Waterworlds in one system, now what was I doing, oh yeah, hauling stuff to Jaques. Any result on analysing our own Parp?
 
Take a body, describe a plane through that body, for simplicity sake let's make 90 degrees off the axis of rotation. So if it had no tilt this is effectively the equator. Define some notion of 'up' with respect to that body.

Take another body in orbit around that body and incline it's orbit so it's not parallel to the rotational plane of the body it's orbiting. For half of the orbit the 2nd body will be 'climbing' (toward up on the body it's orbiting) and for half it will be 'descending'. Where it cross this plane and is climbing is the "ascending" node.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Orbit1.svg/300px-Orbit1.svg.png
There's a point in the orbit where it is at closest approach to the body it's orbiting, that's periapsis.

The angle of periapsis is the angle from the ascending node to the periapsis. If the angle is less than 180 then the object is 'above' the equator of the object it's orbiting, if the angle is greater than 180 then it's passed through the descending node (the point where it crosses the first plane and is now descending) so it is effectively below the equator.

Merope5c has an angle of periapsis of 138 degrees. This means the closest approach to Merope5 is 138 degrees from where it crosses Merope5s rotational plane. Oddly enough that happens it about 24 hours.

Obviously I'm simply paraphrasing the wikipedia arcticle but maybe it helped.

(part of the confusion is folks are trying to hammer that angle into some meaning about the surface of Merope5c and describing an angle from there, it has zero to do with the surface of Nerope 5c, it describes its orbit around Merope5.)

I understood your explanation better than the original article.
Now tell me why it's a useful measurement ;)
 
Again, his interpretation doesn't actually match what the signal contains. He's completely botching the grid lines on the circle; he's showing them circular, but the transmission has them as square.

That doesn't matter. He assumes this is a slice of a sphere. He says, "that line that looks like the radius of the circle is defining a distance out from the center point, but how do I figure out how far that is?" The question becomes how to size the slice. So, he looks at the pictogram and sees that an angle is defined by the two lines. This defines the angle from the center to the outside edge of the slice.

Yes, he has lines drawn wrong. But for this particular piece, which is brilliant, it does not matter. The lines on the sphere section and the other two pictograms may help us to properly place and orient the section.
 
I have to agree, I was working on the beginnings of this theory, it seems that aslong as the proportions of the sphere are mathematically correct we can then take the exact angles, what we need is a task force of guys to send out to places of interest so we can confirm/deny step by step.

I can have my DBX out there and taking coordinates anytime you guys need.
 
I understood your explanation better than the original article.
Now tell me why it's a useful measurement ;)

Other than as a point of time it isn't, and absolutely isn't in the context folks have been using it which as an angle from the surface of Merope5c. I've been trying to say that for a while. I'm not even sure I believe the line in the drawing is meant to represent that angle. It is admittedly close but is it exactly 138.32 or is it 140'ish. It might just be coincidence.

If the 138 is the angle of periapsis and if it's relevant then possibly it means something interesting will happen in about 24 hours and then again in 6.6 days.

It does give a bit of a reference frame from which to do celestial angles since you have a point of reference (Merope 5) and a position (periapsis) but then there's the question of 'now what'. Do you use the 90 degree thing or the two upside down arcs ? How ?
 
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I'm still not sure what the angle of periapsis is actually supposed to be.
I've looked it up in Wikipedia and I still don't understand it!

If a moon orbits a planet exactly going round the equator, it has an angle of 0 degrees, as an argument of periapsis. If, like Merope 5C, it decides to take the scenic route and go at an orbit not aligned with the equator then it ends up with the odd angle of 138 degrees to the equator.

It's not the exact explanation of periapsis, but it's the best I can do at the moment ;)
 
Longitude and latitude are only one choice of coordinate system. And on top of coordinate systems there are pixellisation schemes to pinpoint positions on a sphere. I think lon/lat are FD's most likely choices but they're not the sole ones.
 
If a moon orbits a planet exactly going round the equator, it has an angle of 0 degrees, as an argument of periapsis. If, like Merope 5C, it decides to take the scenic route and go at an orbit not aligned with the equator then it ends up with the odd angle of 138 degrees to the equator.

It's not the exact explanation of periapsis, but it's the best I can do at the moment ;)

I think what you've described is the inclination, the angle between the two orbital planes.
 
I want to go on record and say this is the type of storytelling that gaming desperately needs. For all the inherent faults of procedural generation and games of this scale, the fact is is that we're not being handed some crappy cutscene or being told in some crappy side book (think World of Warcraft) what we need to know. We're actually there and the story is being told in the actions we take, the things we find and what we can figure out. Whether people think those newsletters are cheesy are not, I think they are personally brilliant. The developer constantly reacts to the community and makes things that are catalysts for the story, but they don't treat us like little gaming babies.

It's the highest form of compliment I can give really. I feel like MMO's have been trying to figure this out for years, but have fell way short of an organic way to have a community experience the story being told.

Now they have to stick the landing. I really hope they can, because if they do they'll change my expectations of online sandbox games forever.

I'm so glad to see others who share the same opinion on the subject! I've built a ship just for "research" because of it. I'm thrilled to see what happens next and can only hope to be one of the select few that are directly involved with the developments. To the point where I've dropped nearly everything I'd been doing in the galaxy. One of the greatest senses of immersion I've experienced because it feels like we are directly living out and affecting the events as they unfold.
 
...

2. If we take it as representing a sphere, we must interpret its elements accordingly. Now, the line in the lower right quadrant is straight. It could therefore mean one of two things about the sphere: either a path along the surface of the sphere or the radius of the sphere. From what we see, I can't see any reason to favor one or the other of these two meanings.

We should note, however, that it is unlikely that it indicates a point in the surface of the sphere. First, representing a point would more intelligibly be done by simply marking a dot. Second, the line runs from the center to the exterior of the sphere. That doesn't represent a dot, but rather a relation between the center and the exterior, a relation such as radius (on the assumption that the line represents something about the sphere itself rather than something about the sphere in relation to another object).

3. Perhaps the line in the lower right quadrant doesn't represent something about the sphere itself, but rather something about the sphere in relation to something else. If the line indicates a direction, that interpretation would fall into this category. OK, so is there any reason to think that this line represents something about the sphere in relation to something else? Nothing about it suggests that it does as against representing a feature of the sphere itself, but I don't think we can rule out the possibility.

...

I want to build on what I said in these two sections.

I now doubt that the line in the lower right quadrant of the image points to something external to 5c.

5c is tidally locked to 5. Its orbital period is 6.6 days. Now, if we could establish that the outer symbols indicate a relation between 5c and the other moons orbiting 5, then at some point in that period of 6.6 days we could establish a direction extending from 5c to some object in the Merope system or beyond the Merope system. Quite possibly, the quarter circumference line in the upper left quadrant indicates the bearing of the sun, which would aid in the determination of the direction of the line in the lower right.

However, this entire system is thrown by the fact that 5 orbits Merope. Regardless of the relative position of the elements in the Merope 5 subsystem, the hypothetical object indicated by the line in the lower right quadrant would be entirely dependent upon the relative position of Merope and Merope 5. Hence, when Merope 5 changes its position, the system would fall apart. This alone raises a significant doubt about the line in the lower right indicating an external object.

Yet, I note that Merope 5 has an orbital period of about 5000 days. If the line does point to something external, FDev has found a great way of establishing a reasonable period of time for us to solve the puzzle - the planet moves so slowly, we conceivable have months upon months to determine the object the line is pointing at.

However, it must be noted the the other bodies in the Merope 5 subsystem have far shorter/longer orbital periods than 5c. If the symbols in the image represent the relative positions of these other subsystem bodies, then we would have very, very few shots at establishing the correct alignment and thus very, very few shots at determining what the line points to.

So, to sum up, I think it is unlikely that the line in the lower right quadrant indicates something external to Merope 5c due to the near impossibility, given the orbital movement of the bodies in the Merope system, of establishing the correct alignment of elements within a reasonable timeframe in a game.

I need to emphasize, however, that my conclusion assumes that the symbols exterior to the "map" in the image represent the other bodies in the Merope 5 subsystem. If we remove that assumption, it is possible that the line does point to something exterior to 5c.
 
Just send us coords in pm for confidentiality if you want.

22:61.3 if possible

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I want to build on what I said in these two sections.

I now doubt that the line in the lower right quadrant of the image points to something external to 5c.

5c is tidally locked to 5. Its orbital period is 6.6 days. Now, if we could establish that the outer symbols indicate a relation between 5c and the other moons orbiting 5, then at some point in that period of 6.6 days we could establish a direction extending from 5c to some object in the Merope system or beyond the Merope system. Quite possibly, the quarter circumference line in the upper left quadrant indicates the bearing of the sun, which would aid in the determination of the direction of the line in the lower right.

However, this entire system is thrown by the fact that 5 orbits Merope. Regardless of the relative position of the elements in the Merope 5 subsystem, the hypothetical object indicated by the line in the lower right quadrant would be entirely dependent upon the relative position of Merope and Merope 5. Hence, when Merope 5 changes its position, the system would fall apart. This alone raises a significant doubt about the line in the lower right indicating an external object.

Yet, I note that Merope 5 has an orbital period of about 5000 days. If the line does point to something external, FDev has found a great way of establishing a reasonable period of time for us to solve the puzzle - the planet moves so slowly, we conceivable have months upon months to determine the object the line is pointing at.

However, it must be noted the the other bodies in the Merope 5 subsystem have far shorter/longer orbital periods than 5c. If the symbols in the image represent the relative positions of these other subsystem bodies, then we would have very, very few shots at establishing the correct alignment and thus very, very few shots at determining what the line points to.

So, to sum up, I think it is unlikely that the line in the lower right quadrant indicates something external to Merope 5c due to the near impossibility, given the orbital movement of the bodies in the Merope system, of establishing the correct alignment of elements within a reasonable timeframe in a game.

I need to emphasize, however, that my conclusion assumes that the symbols exterior to the "map" in the image represent the other bodies in the Merope 5 subsystem. If we remove that assumption, it is possible that the line does point to something exterior to 5c.

Well taking the two bottom symbols |.. ..| I believe they represent 4 moons that share the same orbital parent as merope 5c perhaps.
 
I may as well post my 2 British Pence worth and see it get lost in the maelstrom that is this thread at the moment. I've been trying to read every post but sometimes have to skip a few pages.

Occam's Razor is my main take away point. I feel people are over thinking, over analyzing the data we have available.

The newsletter hinted strongly that we have a key in our hands.
The spectrograph of the UP sound shows some very clear images at the centre that seem to relate to a planet with symbols, angles and lines.

I think those are the only relevant pieces in the image. Looking for vaguer, hard to resolve pieces of the image is wandering from the core of the problem too far. Occam's Razor says that it IS a planet, is IS Merope 5c (as that's where the UP points), it IS marking a location for us to find. The 4 quadrant symbols and the lines ARE the instructions for getting a point of reference on the planet, and locating "X" marks the spot. We then take the "key" (UP) there and honk it. The EMP pulse will do something.

However how to interpret the symbols, lines and angles to an accurate point on the surface is beyond me, but I can see we have a lot of people working on it.

Incidentally I was intrigued by a post over 100 pages ago (!) where someone printed and cut out the sphere and symbols and FOLDED IT onto 3 inside sides of a square. He did this because the original spectro-scan didn't have a perfect circle. It was more of a rounded triangle and suggested itself to be a cut-out section of a sphere. However his post was ridiculed (gently) and cast aside.
 
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