Powerplay Undermining.

[Ian Doncaster]

Right now, the focus seems to me on planting as many flags on as many unoccupied systems as is possible. Once that's all done, I imagine the undermining will ramp up.

But that could be weeks from now.

Either years from now or already happened, by the looks of it.

The first three weeks saw 200-300 new net Acquisitions each (across all powers combined).
The second three weeks saw about 10 new net Acquisitions each (so less than one per power).

(Possibly the switch from Rares to Mining has focused a lot of effort into reinforcing already max-strength Strongholds that happen to be good mining sites, rather than into a go-anywhere Acquisition tool, since it's not as if there's a shortage of Acquirable systems right now)

At the current rate of net Reinforcement and Acquisition it looks like it would take about 13 years to get every system up to maximised Stronghold, though it would break as a strategic game long before that point.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Would you mind explaining how? Let us assume a stronghold system has been fully fortified, right to the end. A campaign to undermine that stronghold system back down to Fortified would require 1 million control points, +1 for every reinforcement control point earned to resist it.

Dare I say, I would prefer to spend the rest of my days bound to a Sisyphus curse than try and achieve that.

Not all strongholds are fully fortified (I have seen few ones at 100%), on average they float in the 350-500k CP range... but the flaw is not in the "how many merits..." the problem is how to counter a proper undermining which may happen as up as 250k/day with some dedication (half of that without considering a rotation of TZs).

Defendants can cope with kills of enemy PP ships, when mining/bh resources are not available, at an average 60-65CPs / kill -> but spawn rate is terrible so you need like five, six times more players to restore or counter the CPs, whilst the Carriers are easily farmed with a continuous spawn (and can be farmed with semi-AFK builds).

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Not all strongholds are fully fortified (I have seen few ones at 100%), on average they float in the 350-500k CP range... but the flaw is not in the "how many merits..." the problem is how to counter a proper undermining which may happen as up as 250k/day with some dedication (half of that without considering a rotation of TZs).

Arguably the most effective counter for that is to (largely) ignore it and fortify some other nearby systems up to cover its support sphere.

It's not being a Stronghold alone which does it, it's the presence of the carrier - but carriers can't be placed so that their 30 LY spheres overlap, so not every Stronghold has one.

So if you put multiple Strongholds close together (as Kaine was given to start with) most of them don't get carriers and are just really big Fortified systems with extra Power commodities available and no novel undermining methods.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Arguably the most effective counter for that is to (largely) ignore it and fortify some other nearby systems up to cover its support sphere.

That's true (set up a "fallback" defence line is fundamentl) but also depends of system density in certain areas, or if systems are without resources or orbitals, which are also tough to reinforce.

It's not being a Stronghold alone which does it, it's the presence of the carrier - but carriers can't be placed so that their 30 LY spheres overlap, so not every Stronghold has one.

So if you put multiple Strongholds close together (as Kaine was given to start with) most of them don't get carriers and are just really big Fortified systems with extra Power commodities available and no novel undermining methods.

Good point, indeed

 

[Markov Chaney]

This doesn't surprise me, to be honest. Though we are on cycle 7 presently, PowerPlay2.0 is still very new and all the factions have been dedicating time not just experimenting with the best way to solidify their foundation, but they've also been working on putting as many flags down as possible, carving out their own territories and drawing up what will be firm borders between powers.

Yep, and working through the consequences of activities that were mis-documented so they took a while to become effective, and working through the consequences of activities that have the wrong effect (implementation issue) or have no effect (which is skewed because the list of activities that are definitely bugged is pretty random). And the impact of sheer accidents of geography (eg how mining opportunities have fallen, again at random.)

And once all that is straight there will be a round of rebalance which is actually a rebalance, rather than emergency mitigations.

So "answer unclear, please try again after another 7 cycles" really.

 

[Zechs Darius]

Right now I've found the weighting for UM vs Reinforcement activities is completely off.

It doesn't help that two powers do not have access to their main UM methods. Which is wonderful balancing...

if power 1 gets a 1:1 merit ratio for mindlessly dumping trade from carriers, and power2 has to fight at a 1:2 ratio for Merits, similar activity will always favour power 1.

It's just maths. No skill involved. No real point. UMing as a strategy is fundamentally screwed. Of course this does depend on the system.

Ultimately this will just lead to the same boring stagnation PP 1.0 drove us all away from.
Hauling Wars.

 

[Markov Chaney]

Acquisition activities:

The Odyssey on-foot Transport Power Data and Power Malware are OK I think.
Sell for profits is OK too. So I guess you could trade your way to success.

Otherwise though I'd say Acquisition is pretty compromised until we get some patches?

Escape Pods - merits broken. Some reports that finding Power signals is quite tricky in Acquisition systems.
Power Kills - I've yet to see a Power ship in an Unoccupied. And it's a crime.
Holoscreen - is criminal for Acq.
Retrieve Power Goods - aren't people reporting problems with opening these?
Scan Datalinks - yeah too hard, we've been discussing that today/yesterday; and very circumstantial.
Sell mined resources - very dependent on the system.
Sell rare goods - merits broken. Also supply-constrained.
Transport Power Commodity - requires the right system under 20ly away, quite a lot of gaps in the map at the moment...

I appreciate that where merits are broken, the Control Points might still be working, but it's still a disincentive.

 

[Markov Chaney]

Hm looking at that list, perhaps it's time for me to invest in a fully meta mining ship instead of making do with the Python...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Escape Pods - merits broken. Some reports that finding Power signals is quite tricky in Acquisition systems.

Not seen that myself.

Power Kills - I've yet to see a Power ship in an Unoccupied. And it's a crime.

I've seen plenty in the signal sources. It's a crime, but it's a non-notorious one, so it can be reasonably effective and low-cost provided you have a nearby IF to use.

Holoscreen - is criminal for Acq.

Only a small fine, though. More of a problem potentially for the rep loss, but you have more merit-giving ways to recover that in Acquisition than in Undermining.

Retrieve Power Goods - aren't people reporting problems with opening these?

Works fine for me. There's the usual randomness of "does this container have 0 or 5 items" so it's a bit less reliable than data upload/download but it makes a nice supplement to them since you're there anyway and it can be done very quickly while running between data ports.

Scan Datalinks - yeah too hard, we've been discussing that today/yesterday; and very circumstantial.

It's pretty time-efficient, the catch is that you can only do it once per fortnight per megaship per commander, so only really works if there's a lot of people doing a small amount of work. Some big groups could potentially use it very effectively. But it's certainly a supplemental activity, not one to grind in isolation.

Sell mined resources - very dependent on the system.

And also for Acquisition, very dependent on the supporting system, given the unusual location requirements. On the other hand if you pick your future supporting systems to push to Fortified with their mining opportunities in mind, you can tip those odds heavily in your favour.

(Core mining is generally a bit more reliable than laser mining in this respect, though laser mining seems better if it works)

Sell rare goods - merits broken. Also supply-constrained.

Supply-constrained wasn't a massive problem given the old payout per-tonne, though who knows what state it might eventually come back in.

Transport Power Commodity - requires the right system under 20ly away, quite a lot of gaps in the map at the moment...

Though by definition any system which is a valid Acquisition target for your Power does have at least one suitable system to get the commodity from. The problem here is that the allocation quantities even at rank 100 are so small it can only - again - be a supplemental source for something else.


You've missed Bounty Hunting as an Acquisition option - easy, generally available though some systems are certainly better than others, nicely positive for rep and credits too.


The other thing about Acquisition is that the targets are fairly small - 35k control score to get to the Conflict stage (which then opens up CZs if contested for lots of Power Kills), and a minimum of 120k control score to Acquire it (which is all you need if it's not contested). You're also opposed (if at all!) by other people also doing Acquisition so it's a mostly-even fight in that respect (subject to the system having an environment which favours one or the other of you for ethos bonuses)

 

[Markov Chaney]

I've seen plenty in the signal sources. It's a crime, but it's a non-notorious one, so it can be reasonably effective and low-cost provided you have a nearby IF to use.

Oh that's true, it won't get you shot... fair.

Works fine for me. There's the usual randomness of "does this container have 0 or 5 items" so it's a bit less reliable than data upload/download but it makes a nice supplement to them since you're there anyway and it can be done very quickly while running between data ports.

Cool. I don't play Odyssey so I was going by comments on here, and I forgot to apply the forum's pessimism filter... in fact, since three of those Odyssey activities work, maybe I find it a bit skewed because the issues have mostly landed on Horizons-only stuff.

On the other hand if you pick your future supporting systems to push to Fortified with their mining opportunities in mind, you can tip those odds heavily in your favour.

I think this is the idea tbh and as we've said elsewhere in this thread it's not really had time to pan out that way yet, not enough ticks yet to run a wave in front of another wave.

Supply-constrained wasn't a massive problem given the old payout per-tonne, though who knows what state it might eventually come back in.

I quite like the constraint to be honest, it stops people turning up with anything full of Class 5 racks and simply buying a new system in one trip.

You've missed Bounty Hunting as an Acquisition option - easy, generally available though some systems are certainly better than others, nicely positive for rep and credits too.

Oops! Yes, OK, that does make up for a lot.

The other thing about Acquisition is that the targets are fairly small - 35k control score to get to the Conflict stage (which then opens up CZs if contested for lots of Power Kills)

Ah so once you've primed the pump it gets easier... OK, yes, true, I hadn't thought about that first threshold, and diving into a CZ and shooting ships all day is indeed easy enough. Wasn't really the Ethos I was going for but it functionally works I guess.

 

[Zechs Darius]

Acquisition activities:

The Odyssey on-foot Transport Power Data and Power Malware are OK I think.
Sell for profits is OK too. So I guess you could trade your way to success.

Otherwise though I'd say Acquisition is pretty compromised until we get some patches?

Escape Pods - merits broken. Some reports that finding Power signals is quite tricky in Acquisition systems.
Power Kills - I've yet to see a Power ship in an Unoccupied. And it's a crime.
Holoscreen - is criminal for Acq.
Retrieve Power Goods - aren't people reporting problems with opening these?
Scan Datalinks - yeah too hard, we've been discussing that today/yesterday; and very circumstantial.
Sell mined resources - very dependent on the system.
Sell rare goods - merits broken. Also supply-constrained.
Transport Power Commodity - requires the right system under 20ly away, quite a lot of gaps in the map at the moment...

I appreciate that where merits are broken, the Control Points might still be working, but it's still a disincentive.

Yay hauling wars. What fun. /s

 

[Angus McSix]

After extensively doing settlement data theft over the weekend, I can confidently say:

Uploading malware is a fun activity, but the merit reward for the risk involved is greatly lacking.

Downloaded data is universally less risky, and has a greater reward per unit.

Uploaded malware, dare I say it, ought to earn minimum 500 merits per upload.

 

[zimms]

More importantly even (imho) please reduce the upload time. I've already killed everyone and turned off the alarms, don't make me wait a full minute per upload.

 

[Angus McSix]

More importantly even (imho) please reduce the upload time. I've already killed everyone and turned off the alarms, don't make me wait a full minute per upload.

You kill everyone?

Aren't you worried about your notoriety?

 

[zimms]

You kill everyone?

Aren't you worried about your notoriety?

When it's maxed it's maxed.

I prefer anarchy settlements, but when a mission with a particularly interesting reward takes me somewhere else, I do what I gotta do.

 

[Zechs Darius]

After extensively doing settlement data theft over the weekend, I can confidently say:

Uploading malware is a fun activity, but the merit reward for the risk involved is greatly lacking.

Downloaded data is universally less risky, and has a greater reward per unit.

Uploaded malware, dare I say it, ought to earn minimum 500 merits per upload.

100% this. Downloading the data though...

 

[Angus McSix]

100% this. Downloading the data though...

Is fine where it is.

Uploading malware can only be done once per data port, takes twice as long as the longest single data download, and rewards half the amount of the least valuable data download.

This is totally backwards from the way uploaded malware should be rewarded.

 

[Zechs Darius]

Is fine where it is.

Uploading malware can only be done once per data port, takes twice as long as the longest single data download, and rewards half the amount of the least valuable data download.

This is totally backwards from the way uploaded malware should be rewarded.

100%
I agree that Downloading Data is absolutely fine, even super-effective.

I don't bother at all with uploading currently.

 

[shevek]

Would flipping a rival powers systems to anarchy governments be a good idea, should make it easier to hunt their power ships with out getting a bounty and slow down the reinforcement by bounty hunting.

It should also make uploading and downloading at settlements easier if you don’t mind shooting everyone.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Would flipping a rival powers systems to anarchy governments be a good idea, should make it easier to hunt their power ships with out getting a bounty and slow down the reinforcement by bounty hunting.

In theory, but I suspect in practice if you're so closely matched that taking away bounty hunting (but leaving them all their other options) makes a measurable difference, the multiple weeks you need to flip the system to anarchy in the first place - especially given that many reinforcement actions will also tend to keep the anarchy faction suppressed - will end up putting you further behind than you can get any benefit out of it.

Since power bounties don't generate notoriety and don't in themselves summon system authority ships, they're easy enough to just clear at a nearby IF when you want to switch back to legal undermining options, so an anarchy system is only a little more convenient in practice.

It should also make uploading and downloading at settlements easier if you don’t mind shooting everyone.

Settlement ownership can be flipped independently of system ownership, so moving a few settlements over to anarchy is going to be a lot quicker and might be worthwhile if you like undermining that way. Might be worth considering if you expect to be fighting over a system for a long time.