Vindicator Jones Discusses Fundamental Game Improvements

[Grey Wolfe]

Greetings fellow CMRDs and Frontier Development.

If you haven't already, take the time to watch the latest post on Vindicator Jones' channel. You'll find another great example of some balanced and well thought out ideas that address the fundamental mechanics of Open gameplay.

The issues of Combat Logging, Griefing and Ganking are becoming an ever increasing problem within the game and I feel it needs to be more actively prioritised be Frontier. There are many sound ideas out there to address them and this is another great example.

I would personally like to see the very heart of Elite Dangerous beating at full strength, rather than being prescribed endless patches and point updates that act like steroid injections, often only masking the real health issues of the game.


[video=youtube_share;uksaImGXAEY]https://youtu.be/uksaImGXAEY[/video]

 

[NascentChemist]

The game did advertise a different C&P system for members of the Pilot Fed killing each other. It sounds like a persistent karma mechanic could fit the bill.

 

[Pville_Piper]

I think there is some very good common sense ideas there... Will it work? Who knows, but it would be a better system than the current non-system. I still think it will take a while for this to bring people into open even with these changes but I would be willing to try open if these were successfully implemented. I really liked the ideas about the class system of fighting in CGs... That would be cool to try. Face off with players of similar ship types and engineered equipment to level the playing field and allow everyone to git gud at there own pace.

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

Great video Vindicator.

I'll again link the discussion taking place in my C&P thread because I think we were all on the right track in general.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/310334-Heavenly-Hammer-s-Heavy-Handed-How-To-Guide-To-REAL-Crime-amp-Punishment-In-ED

I feel like it addresses your points about:

• No lasting punishment issue
• Making security levels in systems meaningful and consequently strategic
• Making the Pilot's Federation meaningful and strong against killing Clean CMDRs
• Increasing the potential profits in anarchy systems
• Semi-permanent bounties

It also addresses combat logging to deal with that angle of C&P as well. And it does all this while still allowing a cool pathway for Pirate play and Terrorist play while making the differentiation between the two quite clear. In fact, a lot of what you had to say sounded like there's an echo in the room. But I take that as a good thing; it means most of us are on the same page here. Give it a look and see what you think.

I like your idea of dueling Community Goals too and I agree that Pirates need tools that are really only effective for Piracy. Stuff like Tractor Beams and Ion Cannons that disable ships but do no actual damage.

Lastly, I have no idea why there is no CQC arena for PvP like you mentioned with our ships...and I agree that they need to give Open more incentives to encourage the masses to return to it. Combined with a C&P system like you've talked about or that we've seen discussed in my thread, Open can be the preferred option rather than the feared option.

$0.02

 

[Grey Wolfe]

Great video Vindicator.

I'll again link the discussion taking place in my C&P thread because I think we were all on the right track in general.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/310334-Heavenly-Hammer-s-Heavy-Handed-How-To-Guide-To-REAL-Crime-amp-Punishment-In-ED

I feel like it addresses your points about:

• No lasting punishment issue
• Making security levels in systems meaningful and consequently strategic
• Making the Pilot's Federation meaningful and strong against killing Clean CMDRs
• Increasing the potential profits in anarchy systems
• Semi-permanent bounties

It also addresses combat logging to deal with that angle of C&P as well. And it does all this while still allowing a cool pathway for Pirate play and Terrorist play while making the differentiation between the two quite clear. In fact, a lot of what you had to say sounded like there's an echo in the room. But I take that as a good thing; it means most of us are on the same page here. Give it a look and see what you think.

I like your idea of dueling Community Goals too and I agree that Pirates need tools that are really only effective for Piracy. Stuff like Tractor Beams and Ion Cannons that disable ships but do no actual damage.

Lastly, I have no idea why there is no CQC arena for PvP like you mentioned with our ships...and I agree that they need to give Open more incentives to encourage the masses to return to it. Combined with a C&P system like you've talked about or that we've seen discussed in my thread, Open can be the preferred option rather than the feared option.

$0.02

Agree with all that, particularly your bullet points.

When FD introduced the wanted/system status HUD infographic just prior to High Waking it answered a question in Elite that no one ever asked. The reason for this is there's little to no real difference between High security and Low security, or a system under Dictatorship or in Anarchy .... I mean really, has anyone ever aborted a jump when they saw it said 'Anarchy'... ?

I've heard many CMDRs make the same suggestion about bringing CQC into the live servers. It just feels too separated and removed off on its own. Now with access to ship launched fighters there's almost no point in playing it. Perhaps it's for these reasons many don't ...



... and for what it's worth, I though your post was worth more than 2c

 

[Falcon_D]

Hello,
I like the C&P ideas presented in this video. I think this would help Open.
Personally I still would have no interest in going into Open as I like the freedom of going anywhere that I like and not have to put up with PvP. Though I really wouldn't mind having more/higher ranked NPCs intradicting me in Anarchy.

The only thing that seems to bug me about the video, is towards the end where VJ seems to say that there is more incentive to play in Open because I presume that the rewards are higher. This to me breaks the Open = Group = Solo foundation of the game. And it is something I do not agree with. If the plain joy of flying in a "dangerous" environment such as Open is not good enough then why bother. Not to mention that there will always be work arounds.

Having an in-game arena style play is actually pretty cool. Except this is another concept that breaks the Open = Group = Solo foundation. This is one of the reasons I can understand FDev making CQC separate to the main game. Maybe a mod to CQC would be the ability to use your in-game ships and as VJ said, with very little to no consequence, with different class.

Anyway just my $0.02.

Have fun, fly safe. And thanks for the video link. o7

 

[Marc_Hicks]

To me, a decent Crime & Punishment system, centred around a semi-persistent karma system, and a more granular bounty/punishment system, won't just be a boon to PvP, I believe it would also be a major boon for PvE. Gaining a reputation as a notorious pirate or bounty hunter, for example-long after the bounties have expired-would help to add a great deal more depth & realism to the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, it is somewhat of a coincidence that VJ is discussing C&P.....as I put up a post on this very matter just yesterday, & how a "karma" system could apply to a whole gamut of career choices.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ation-quot-amp-quot-Crime-amp-Punishment-quot

 

[Grey Wolfe]

To me, a decent Crime & Punishment system, centred around a semi-persistent karma system, and a more granular bounty/punishment system, won't just be a boon to PvP, I believe it would also be a major boon for PvE. Gaining a reputation as a notorious pirate or bounty hunter, for example-long after the bounties have expired-would help to add a great deal more depth & realism to the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, it is somewhat of a coincidence that VJ is discussing C&P.....as I put up a post on this very matter just yesterday, & how a "karma" system could apply to a whole gamut of career choices.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ation-quot-amp-quot-Crime-amp-Punishment-quot

I think its a popular and prominent topic that continues to gain momentum. This was the reason I wanted to share this in the forum.

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

Hello,
I like the C&P ideas presented in this video. I think this would help Open.
Personally I still would have no interest in going into Open as I like the freedom of going anywhere that I like and not have to put up with PvP. Though I really wouldn't mind having more/higher ranked NPCs intradicting me in Anarchy.

Generally speaking, you can go anywhere and almost never have to worry about PvP. I go literally everywhere in any of my ships and have been interdicted by hostile CMDRs once (1) in the last 12 months. One time. And I simply boosted away and went about my business. But let the forum tell it, there's a 50/50 chance that you'll get murdered in Open just by logging into the mode.

Once you move out of starter space (places like Everate, LHS 447, etc.), the chances you run into a hostile CMDR drops into the single digits. Some Community Goals notwithstanding. I see nothing but friendly CMDRs every day in capital systems for Power Play factions, for example.

This isn't to say that proper C&P isn't essential; I've outlined as much in my C&P thread. Just making a point that the actual day to day threat is grossly overblown compared to the actual threat. That really hurts the discussion because it becomes dishonest from the outset.

 

[Dracaya Tzentchel]

Hello,
I like the C&P ideas presented in this video. I think this would help Open.
Personally I still would have no interest in going into Open as I like the freedom of going anywhere that I like and not have to put up with PvP. Though I really wouldn't mind having more/higher ranked NPCs intradicting me in Anarchy.

The only thing that seems to bug me about the video, is towards the end where VJ seems to say that there is more incentive to play in Open because I presume that the rewards are higher. This to me breaks the Open = Group = Solo foundation of the game. And it is something I do not agree with. If the plain joy of flying in a "dangerous" environment such as Open is not good enough then why bother. Not to mention that there will always be work arounds.

Having an in-game arena style play is actually pretty cool. Except this is another concept that breaks the Open = Group = Solo foundation. This is one of the reasons I can understand FDev making CQC separate to the main game. Maybe a mod to CQC would be the ability to use your in-game ships and as VJ said, with very little to no consequence, with different class.

Anyway just my $0.02.

Have fun, fly safe. And thanks for the video link. o7

It's a horribly rehashed argument to make but I'm going to briefly make it anyway.

There is maybe some consideration to be made for reward for the risks taken on.

Although it's not really like it's difficult to get rewards in ED, it's simply a matter of putting the time in.

PvPers have already had to deal with things like being unable to defend systems in power play from being undermined by people in solo / group and they're entitled to gameplay as much as anybody else.

 

[Grey Wolfe]

Generally speaking, you can go anywhere and almost never have to worry about PvP. I got literally everywhere in any of my ships and have been interdicted by hostile CMDRs once (1) in the last 12 months. One time. And I simply boosted away and went about my business. But let the forum tell it, there's a 50/50 chance that you'll get murdered in Open just by logging into the mode.

Once you move out of starter space (places like Everate, LHS 447, etc.), the chances you run into a hostile CMDR drops into the single digits. Some Community Goals notwithstanding. I see nothing but friendly CMDRs every day in capital systems for Power Play factions, for example.

This isn't to say that proper C&P isn't essential; I've outlined as much in my C&P thread. Just making a point that the actual day to day threat is grossly overblown compared to the actual threat. That really hurts the discussion because it becomes dishonest from the outset.

Yes, agree here too. I've been in Elite for 18 months, gained high ranks and regularly play in Open, and yet I've only ever been interdicted or pirated twice by other CMDRs in all that time and have had almost no PvP contact despite welcoming it.

I'm regularly in contact with many CMDRs but rarely even wing up with them due to differing time zones.

New players that read this thread shouldn't feel that Open play is some sort of death trap, because it isn't.

 

[Dracaya Tzentchel]

Personally I've played in open like 90% of my time, the 10% being either in community goals or because I wanted to avoid waiting for landing pad queues at busy stations (Of course the NPCs seem to still want to hog all the space even in solo) and my only time ever being interdicted and killed was during a CG where it was entirely my own fault it happened as I wasn't being alert.

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

Yes, agree here too. I've been in Elite for 18 months, gained high ranks and regularly play in Open, and yet I've only been interdicted or pirated twice by another CMDR in all that time and have had almost no PvP contact despite welcoming it.

I'm regularly in contact with many CMDRs but rarely even wing up with them due to differing time zones.

New players that read this thread shouldn't feel that Open play is some sort of death trap, because it isn't.

Agreed. I guess we'll see what happens. I'm optimistic we'll get a better C&P system sooner rather than later.

I just don't know if it will be sufficiently robust. That I worry about. I'd rather they overdo it and tone it down than not do enough and we continue having the same problems.

 

[Dracaya Tzentchel]

You can always count on players to find the most annoying way to break anything that you created

 

[lokvette]

Great Vid, but to me the damage done to open is already done and nothing FD do is going to fix it to where they want it to be.

The so called Karma system mentioned but with no time frame or any new news about it, has left me doubting its going to be anywhere near what it should be, it might and I might be wrong and open will be the bustling hub that it should be. Bu the longer it goes with out a proper CP system the more damage is done and the more people drift away from open once they find out what PG's are and how solo means well just that solo.

VJ brings up some nice alternatives to making the game more attractive in open, and if there where things like that then sure I might give open a go again, but if you can do those things for the same rewards in PG or Solo why bother playing in open.

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

Great Vid, but to me the damage done to open is already done and nothing FD do is going to fix it to where they want it to be.

The so called Karma system mentioned but with no time frame or any new news about it, has left me doubting its going to be anywhere near what it should be, it might and I might be wrong and open will be the bustling hub that it should be. Bu the longer it goes with out a proper CP system the more damage is done and the more people drift away from open once they find out what PG's are and how solo means well just that solo.

VJ brings up some nice alternatives to making the game more attractive in open, and if there where things like that then sure I might give open a go again, but if you can do those things for the same rewards in PG or Solo why bother playing in open.

I really do think that a C&P system like what has been discussed here, in my thread and in other threads will address 99% of the issues. Couple it with additional incentives for Open play and the people will flock back.

Nothing motivates CMDRs in ED like the prospect of making lots of credits faster. We've seen that time and time again. Especially if it means SIGNIFICANT safety improvements.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

You haven't said what they are .. just posted a link to some random persons YT channel.

 

[Falcon_D]

PvPers have already had to deal with things like being unable to defend systems in power play from being undermined by people in solo / group and they're entitled to gameplay as much as anybody else.

Yes. I completely agree on this point.

However, what we have now is a shared universe. And the "Hotel California" thread has rehashed this argument many times.
Yet it seems like if you make exceptions or additions for one mode then you take away from other aspects of the game. E.g. Wings. You can't wing up in Solo, so there does not seem to be wing specific content in the game. Which for some players, is taking away content. If you make High-CZs tough so that winged players find it challenging, then you basically make it very tough for Solo players, playing in High-CZs, and therefore you take away their content.

My other point about flying anywhere:
I can fly anywhere, to Anarchy systems, Everate, Lave, LHS 3447, Community goal systems, without having to PvP. Why would I suddenly give up this freedom to play as I want (PvE), anywhere I want? Just like PvPers can. Again, this is just my take.

I'm all for making Open more enjoyable. Open could use some C&P love to help bring back some CMDRs. Just not CMDRs like me.
VJ's point about a Kharma system, as FDev is looking into it, is pretty good as he explains it (as I can see how this cuts across all modes.) I'm just not sure about his other ideas of how to make Open more fun for PvPers without keeping the other modes just as rewarding for players with a different playstyle.

My personal and very controversial opinion: Split the servers (BGS/Matching making servers). Open PvP servers, Open PvE/Group/Solo servers.

Have fun, fly safe. o7

Edit: Also, adding credit incentives to play in Open is just not a very straight forward idea. And to me it's just a little "under-handed"(?).

 

[lokvette]

I really do think that a C&P system like what has been discussed here, in my thread and in other threads will address 99% of the issues. Couple it with additional incentives for Open play and the people will flock back.

Nothing motivates CMDRs in ED like the prospect of making lots of credits faster. We've seen that time and time again. Especially if it means SIGNIFICANT safety improvements.

I hope your right, I have read your post which is the way I would like it to be, and I hope FD really swing the CP hammer into a Draconian wall and watch it crumble as the hammer is far more Draconian than the wall.

I would play in open but as it is now there is nothing there for me, nor anything making me want to go and play in open.

 

[Heavenly-Hammer]

You haven't said what they are .. just posted a link to some random persons YT channel.

Watch the video?

Tall task I know, pressing play. If you can't handle that, you have hundreds of other threads you can post in and actually say something worth the time to write (or have someone read).